The following is a production of Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary. For more information about the seminary, how you can support it, or applying to become a student, please visit www.gpts.edu. Hello and welcome to another edition of Confessing Our Hope, the podcast of Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary. In this edition, we're going to continue our denominational debrief series with an interview of a representative from the RCUS, the Reformed Church in the United States. Travis Grasmid is a pastor of Zion Reformed Church in Menno, South Dakota. He's also a graduate of Greenville Seminary. Thank you, Travis, for joining me. It's always a pleasure, Zach, and I appreciate this opportunity to fill in folks on the work of the RCUS at our most recent synod. Travis, in addition to being a graduate of the seminary and being a minister in the RCUS, is the RCUS representative on the GPTS Board of Trustees. He's a voting member of the board. He represented GPTS at the Synod this year, as well as serving as vice president of the Synod. He also happens to be president of the Classis South Central of the RCUS. This year's Synod was the 272nd Synod of the Reformed Church in the United States. It was held on May 21st through 24th in Golden Valley, Minnesota, which is a suburb of Minneapolis, and they had a number of things come up that I think will be of interest to our listeners. and I'm going to allow Travis to talk about how large the denomination is, where the congregations are located, and who participates in Synod, and what that's like. So just to kick off our conversation, Travis, for the benefit of our listeners who are unfamiliar with the RCUS, what Tell us a little bit about the denomination, its history, its theological commitments, and its culture. I will be much briefer than before. Of course it is 272 years old now, which we just had that centered, but in many ways we're new to the 1930s, and so we went from a large denomination to a small one. We currently have 47 churches that were represented at the synod this year. There may be some mission works that were not included in that number, but 47 were represented. We are spread currently across the United States, but the heavy concentrations are in the Midwest, South Dakota, a little bit in Nebraska, Colorado, Wyoming, spreading that way. and also in California. So really the Midwest and the West Coast are where our heavy concentrations are. We do have a couple of them scattered all the way through and back into Pennsylvania where it all began. That is very good. That's kind of who we are in a nutshell. I would refer any listeners that want a bit more information in podcast form to listen to last year's denominational debrief, where I grilled Travis a little bit more on the theological distinctives and the culture and some of the extended history of the RCUS. In this denominational debrief, we're going to focus more on this year's synod and news. So who attends the RCUS synod, Travis? Is it just pastors, or do elder Every pastor is expected to attend, and so we have every pastor that attends and also one delegate, one elder delegate from each congregation. Now, not always can everyone make it. Schedules get tight, especially farming is a big, big industry in our denomination, and well, May is kind of a busy time of year. They're planting seeds. So what we had this year in Golden Valley were 49 ministers and 34 elders that showed up, as well as a number of visitors. A lot of the congregation there, as well as wives and children, came along for the ride. But the delegates to Synod were those 49 ministers and 34 elders. So most of the denomination was represented at Synod then? Yeah, because those ministers include retired ministers, But yeah, the vast majority of the denomination was represented, and it always has. How does the RCUS conduct Synod? In addition to feeling like a family reunion, what are the worship services like, and do you all ever have any special themes? Was there a special theme this year to the messages that were delivered? Oftentimes we do have special themes, and you caught me unawares. I should have looked that up, and I must confess it's been many months, and I don't remember if we had a special theme this year. We probably did. But at any rate, Synod is straightforward. We do have, we open with worship. We have daily devotionals. We have worship in the middle of week on Wednesday as well. Worship is central to our proceedings, but we begin then after the worship with a roll call where All the delegates are called, handing out of assignments, committee work, and then each committee chair coming to report, all done decently and in good order. I've been very impressed with the organization and conduct of Senate. Can you give us a brief overview of what exactly happened over the course of Synod? You know, any actions that the Synod took, or any discussions that took place? Any particularly significant reports this year? And then I'll ask some follow-up questions as we get through the basics of what actually took place. When you and I talked last year, Zach, we had a couple of papers that were quite interesting that were assigned to committees. That was The committee to study whether cremation was an allowable form of disposal of the human body and also a paper to discuss whether, well the way the question was written was rather ambiguous, whether voting in a congregational meeting is an act of authority. But what they were really trying to get to is whether a woman of the church a member of the church can vote in a congregational meeting. Now, both of those committees came back, made their reports, but neither one of them were accepted. Both of those committees were augmented and sent back for further work this year. Those were big, big discussions, and you can expect a lot of heat, I guess, when you're talking about cremation. Sorry about that. But these are big topics, and so it could not be done in one year. It'll take multiple reports before we can do conclusions. So those were the big ones of this year, and they took up a lot of our discussion. We did have a special judicial committee. There was a complaint out of Western Classes that was appealed, and that was adjudicated at our Senate as well. Those were the big items this year. Was there any progress made on the reports that were delivered on these different special issues, or have they all been basically renewed or remanded to the next person? There was progress in both of those, but only so in the question had to be refined so as to get to what we're really looking for. When it came to cremation, there was a lot of heated discussion, but no conclusion to the matter. And so we actually augmented that and really reconstituted that whole committee. We took a couple off, we added a couple others, and sent them to reinvestigate the work. When it came to of the question of the authority of the congregational vote. The committee actually came back with an exact answer to the question that was asked, but everyone knew that wasn't the question at heart. So they did exactly what they were told to, and that wasn't what we wanted. They just came back and said, yes, congregational vote is authoritative. but that doesn't answer the motivation behind it. So the Senate actually had to refine her question and be more straightforward, honestly. Straightforward in the question that we're asking. And so it was re-asked as, does a Christian woman, parenthetically single or married, exercise authority over a man when she votes? And so that is the new question that is sent, and the reconstituted committee is charged with answering that question. And that gets us much more closely to what the original question was from a couple of years ago. So in that way, yes, progress was made. We found out that we asked the wrong question and had to just be more direct in the question that we're asking. And in that question, it's not just a matter of a Christian woman exercising authority over Christian men in the act of voting, it's also the matter of communicant members who are children in a household exercising authority over their fathers, right? Yes, that would also be an implication. Normally, confessing members of the Church can vote at a congregational meeting at age 21. So that would be an implication as well, yes. But one that has not been addressed. I remember us discussing that last year. Yeah, I mean, this was news to me that this was actually an issue that had to be hammered out, not just in the RCUS today, but in a lot of Reformed and confessional denominations in the past couple hundred years, with the advancement of women's suffrage in in the political sphere, but also the reimagining or, you know, progress or whatever of understanding of public engagement and social engagement of adult children who haven't yet moved out of the home, and then compound that with the problem of adult children staying in the home much later, and the ramifications for not just the political sphere, but also the church, So I'm interested in how this ends up working out in the RCUS. You men are always very careful in how you prepare reports, and I think what you will produce in 2019 will be very helpful to all of us, and even be more than just a historical or theological curiosity or intellectual exercise. This actually has real ramifications in the courts of the Church. and in the life of the Church. Well, we have a good committee, and Lord willing, they will come back with a good exegetical paper that will be available for the Churches to review at any time then, if we approve it. So yeah, I hope that the work we're doing will be of benefit to the Churches, wherever we come out, you know, just that we're faithful to the Word. Yes, exactly. And as far as the committee work on cremation as an acceptable or allowable means of handling the remains or the corpse, was there any progress on that particular report that's worth noting today? I wouldn't necessarily say there was progress, except that there was extended discussion of it on the floor, which meant that The delegates were forced to struggle with exegetical reasons for their position. And so the division of the body became a little more apparent. Some of us were challenged on our preconceived notions and forced to reinvestigate and look a little closer at scripture. So I guess there was progress in that we were all prodded and pushed to the limit to defend our position. And some of us may then be changing. And so with, I believe we added three new members, if I remember correctly. With those new members to the committee, we'll have some new eyeballs, some new discussion. And we'll tackle this issue again until a conclusion is made, one way or the other. So in that way, progress is made, because we were all forced to deal with it and figure out exactly what we believe and why, and whether it is indeed biblical. So only in that way, but nothing was actually done to advance it officially on the floor. Just a lot of discussion at this point. Well, it sounds like—and this gets back to the question of what the synod is like—it sounds like the synod is truly deliberative, that men don't just show up to be polemical and to cast their vote and try to rush the process, but you really are coming together to come to a meeting of the minds, to deliberate, to add to the discourse or the discussion, and seek to persuade other men. And I think that's one of the unique advantages to having a smaller synod or denomination, is that that is going to be the character of your annual meetings. Whereas in a very large denomination, like the PCA—and again, that's my reference point because that's my church—in the PCA, you don't get as much deliberation back and forth. There's some, but it's really just unworkable when you have over 1,400 or 1,500 delegates in a room, or commissioners in a room, to have real deliberation where every guy can get his two cents in and add to the discussion. But in your case, it's possible, and it seems like you men are safe to do that. And what I really love about it is it's not only the ministers. I can remember clearly particular speeches on the floor from elders of these 34 elder delegates. Their voices are heard. And I can remember right now a number of them, what they were saying and why they were saying it. And so it truly is elder and pastor alike that are being heard, that are being represented. And so the churches are being represented in that way. And it's not a matter of the small, the small churches just don't have a voice. But in a small denomination like this, yes, you are heard. If you're willing to engage in the discussion, you will be heard. And I appreciate that. Moving on, were there any new special committees formed this year? We talked about these two that carried over from previous years, but were there any new investigations or works launched this year? As far as special committees, no, there were not. There was the special judicial issue that was dealt with. and adjudicated, but no new papers. I think we're content to deal with these two until we get them hammered out before we try to pick up any new major issues, if we can help it. That makes sense. This year, did the Synod welcome any new ministers or congregations into the body? And if you did, can you tell us anything about how those congregations or ministers ended up in the RCUS? Yeah, we did. We had two in particular. We received Reverend Chris Moulton, and I wish I could remember the micro-Presbyterian denomination he came from. He came to us from Wisconsin for the purpose of doing the of pastoring mission work in Denver, Colorado. He was examined actually in our classes, in Class of South Central, and was welcomed at Synod, and he is now beginning a mission work in Denver, Colorado. So Chris Moulton was joined, Reverend Chris Moulton. He is a graduate of Mid-America, I believe. And Reverend Chuck Meether, formerly of the OPC, was examined by Class of Covenant East, and was welcomed at our 272nd Synod to begin a mission work in Oskaloosa, Iowa. Those two ministers came to us and are now beginning their church plantings, labors, both in Denver and in Iowa. And Minister Meether, he has involvement with Heidelberg Theological Seminary as well, right? He does. He is Director of Advancement, basically your position, I guess, at Heidelberg as well. Yes, and from what I can tell he's doing a great job there. Yeah, he's doing a great job there. Our systematics professor, Ryan McGraw, who I guess was one of your classmates back in the day... Yeah, well, yeah, sort of. He was a little bit ahead of me. Way ahead of me academically, anyway. But yeah, he was a year or two ahead of me. Yeah, so Dr. McGraw went and taught a reform scholasticism course, I think, think that's what he taught at Heidelberg, and Chuck sat in on that. And when Dr. McGraw came back, he told me how encouraged he was by Chuck's active involvement in the course and enthusiasm for having him there, and just the hospitality he was shown by the faculty and staff at Heidelberg. So we're glad to have these warm relationships with other seminaries where we can borrow faculty and lend out faculty and just celebrate our common Reformed heritage, and common commitment to the inerrant Word of God, and expository preaching, and redemptive historical theology, and all the other things that unite us around the common cause of advancing the Kingdom. So that was a good report to receive, and I'm glad to hear that Chuck is now formally received into the RCUS as well. and these mission works are exciting. You highlighted these two in Iowa and in Colorado. Are there any other mission works that the RCUS is engaged in, either domestic or foreign, that you'd like to tell us about? Well, we've had work in Dickinson, North Dakota, for a few years now, but they just received their new minister, an organizing minister for the work in Dickinson, which is up in North Dakota by the oil wells, right by that Indian reservation that was on the news so much. So we're excited about that. And then other local mission works are just in the discussion stage at this point. But the work in the Philippines, Pearl of the Orient Covenant Reformed Church that we're very actively engaged in is going very well. I did have an opportunity to go there in July, and that is an excellent work that we are seeking to work cooperatively with our brethren there, and so we're very excited about working with Pearl of the Orient. That's wonderful. And I think you've really summed up, and this is a tall order, but you summed up in a succinct way in a short amount of time the developments at Synod. For you, Travis, what was the single most encouraging takeaway from Synod? Oh, you know what? I would have to say that despite the very difficult nature of some of the papers and cases that were brought before us, the entire Synod was marked by gracious, cooperative deliberation and work among their brethren. We didn't always agree, but I never saw tempers being lost. We always seemed to understand the other delegates in a charitable light, and I was just very encouraged that this 80-some ministers and elders, delegates, could discuss very difficult issues where we are sometimes on polar opposite sides of the issue, and deal with one another as brethren for the good of the Church and the glory of God. I was very encouraged at that. Well, that is a very encouraging thing. Travis, I don't have anything else to say about the Synod or any other questions to ask, other than, do you have any final thoughts that you'd like to share with our listeners before we close down the podcast? The RCOS is a small denomination, but by God's grace, we are growing lately, especially. And I am thrilled with that solid denomination. And I'm thrilled that we also are partnering with Greenville. Presbyterian Theological Seminary and can be involved in the work of that as well as other faithful seminaries. So we're thankful for you guys. You have trained a number of our ministers, and myself included, and we're very thankful for that work because with all good seminaries, it's tough to keep a good denomination, as you know well. So, thank you guys. Thank you, Travis. We are so grateful for the RCUS, the ministry that the Lord has blessed you all with, and also the support for Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary. For a small denomination, it is amazing how much you all invest in not just GPTS, but also a handful of other faithful seminaries around the country. Travis, thank you for your time, I really appreciate it, I'm looking forward to seeing you in a little bit for our next board meeting. Yeah, I'm looking forward to that. My wife and I will both be down there, so that'll be excellent. You've been listening to a production of Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary. For more information about the seminary, please visit www.gpts.edu.