This evening we open our Bibles to the Gospel of John, chapter 10, verse 27. I'm going to simply read that verse and we will look at some other verses in context, so please keep it open. But what we're focusing on for our message this evening, John 10, verse 27. Hear now the word of the Lord. My sheep hear my voice and I know them and they follow me. Of course, this is Jesus speaking about himself as the good shepherd. My sheep hear my voice and I know them and they follow me. This morning I shared about the main concept of the ministry of chaplaincy, the ministry of presence. Again, I took a intensive summer course this week and a lot of reading, a lot of papers, another big paper coming up, but it's been just such a blessing. I've just loved it hearing my own professor who, he's a visiting professor, but was a chaplain in the hospital for, 20 years, he represents the Presbyterian and Reformed Chaplaincy Commission, I think it is now. And that's the kind of vehicle of how he was teaching this class at my seminary. And hearing from so many different chaplains in so many different sectors of society, civilian and military, a real blessing. And the main thing you'll hear from everyone is that idea of the ministry of presence, being out there. being out there where people are that don't come to church, but being out there having that opportunity to be reaching and serving them. It is in the context of the rules of engagement of employment by institutions, so there's a natural tension there. I won't get into, but they do talk about a lot of that. I want to share and apply again some of these things I learned and was blessed just to be thinking about ministry ourselves. I think it applies just as much to our ministry, formal as officers of the church and all members of the church serving the Lord Jesus Christ. This idea of the ministry of presence. We focused in the morning on the ministry of the presence of the body, physical presence, and the presence of others, caring for them and helping them, especially as we looked at Matthew 25, with physical needs for their bodies, not only that, but very much related to that. But once you're there with a ministry of physical presence of your body, you often need to talk. People often need to talk. They often need to seek advice. There's certainly plenty of times where silence is what's most needed, but often people then wanna start talking and think it through and get advice. The chaplain offers this voice. The minister, Christians, offer this voice of caring and careful guidance. First of all, to one another. We know we're all competent to counsel from Romans. We all have the word to speak and share with one another and pray. But the chaplain, especially bringing that out into the world. He becomes not only a familiar presence, but a familiar and trusted voice. The presence of his counsel, the presence of his guidance and what he has to share. One of the four things a chaplain does is provide, the first thing, provide on behalf of their faith group, the ministry, Bible studies, teaching, counseling. There's also care, and that involves a lot of counseling, but also advising, even the institutions. They're really a kind of an advisor to the patients, the employees, but also to the institution's managers. And so there's that sense of having a voice, having influence and needing to be ready to use that opportunity to speak, particularly as it relates to ethics and morals and life skills and having a good and balanced life. What we see in our text tonight, Christ's sheep follow him because they are familiar with his shepherding voice. Christ's sheep follow him because they are familiar with his shepherding voice. He knows them, but they know him, they know his voice. And again, we're thinking of the ministry of presence, in particular, the presence of mind. Paget and McCormick, again, their book, The Work of the Chaplain, write this, presence is both physical and emotional. You see, we need to have presence of mind in how we are in someone's presence to assist by assessing the situation and assisting appropriately. Alan T. Baker in his book Foundations of Chaplaincy says this, proximity, closeness, and availability are core values for flourishing chaplains. For a chaplain, nothing replaces the important need of merely being present with one's people. As chaplains are integrated into the fabric of the organization, people seek them more frequently as a source for advice. mentoring, information. coaching, guidance, and support. And for that, as we think about it more broadly, really for all of us to be ministering Christ to one another and to others, we need to have the ministry of presence of body, but not only that, we need to have the ministry of presence of mind. And that's the message for you this evening, have the ministry of presence of mind. Dr. Jim Carter, who is the leader of the Presbyterian and Reformed Commission on Chaplaincy, and I think I'm getting that worded right, I should have spelled it out. He was one of the speakers, he's the boss of my professor representing this, and he did chaplaincy, but he shares an interesting story of one military chaplain talked about being in the Persian Gulf, And in this one scenario, there were probably about 90 sheep all mixed together and they needed to be separated out. They didn't all belong to the same shepherd. I think each shepherd maybe owned about 10 or 15 or something like that. So there were several shepherds, three, five, 10, I'm not sure, and about 90 sheep, but they were all mixed together. And so because they were going to have an event, I guess they needed to get them into the pens. So every shepherd at the same time called out to their sheep. If you ever go on YouTube, you can see some really amazing examples of this, where a shepherd just starts to call out, and out of the midst, maybe I think in Scotland I've seen sometimes, out of the midst, they just start coming. They just know their voice and they start coming. And in this case, though there were about 90 sheep all mixed together into one group, they had to be separated out. And so each shepherd called out for their sheep, And those individual groups of sheep immediately went to their own shepherds. They just knew their shepherd's voice. Think about that, all these different voices. I don't know about you, but I hear a couple of voices. I'm like, could somebody play, could we do one at a time, please? But they just knew their shepherd's voice so well. that each of those groups of sheep just started to separate and go to their different shepherds, all calling at the same time because they knew their shepherd's voice, because they all had their unique voices, because they were always present speaking to their sheep, each of these shepherds. For them to know their voice like that, that's gonna mean they're with their sheep speaking to them regularly. He also said, Dr. Carter also said that he asked a senior major, what makes a good chaplain, in this case, in the context of military, and the answer from the senior major of what makes a good chaplain, easy, he said, if the soldiers know your voice at night when they can't see you. That makes a good chaplain. So that, of course, involves the ministry of presence of body, but also the ministry of presence of mind, to be speaking to them, guiding them, loving on them, building a relationship that requires words, talking, conversations. Similarly, Dr. Stewart, who taught my class, again, he was a hospital chaplain, he shared about how a soldier once said, What I need of a chaplain is someone who knows my name in the middle of the night when it's cold and wet and he's out there with us instead of being back in the comfortable officer's quarters. And so, first, the chaplain didn't know the soldiers' names at night and be with them would involve, he is with them, talking with them, having conversations, building relationships, getting to know one another, sharing lives by speaking, talking, having the presence of mind that I need to know my sheep and they need to know me. Alan Baker writes this, chaplains bear the odor of their sheep. Chaplains bear the odor of their sheep. Now, of course, the metaphor there is a shepherd walks with the sheep, eats around the sheep, sleeps with the sheep, at least traditionally so. You might remember our four part series years ago by Olivia's request. where we went through Psalm 23. And I shared a lot with you from a lot of books written by men who were shepherds literally of sheep and were now pastors, metaphorically shepherds under the great shepherd of the sheep. And they all talk like that, you need to smell like your sheep. You need to be around your sheep, having a presence with them and sound like them. Now, there are some warnings in some of these military chaplains, not necessarily with the same kinds of words, but they know you, you know them, they respect you. They stay with the sheep, they speak to the sheep. Their voices become recognizably reassuring. because they know you and you know them and they know you know them. Your voice, because you spend time talking with them, is immediately reassuring. You might think of times where you're going into a group in a situation and you're calling out your sheep from maybe removing themselves from a situation and you can catch them because they know your voice and they know what you've said over time is important to listen to. Let's look at this concept of my sheep know my voice. The reason that Jesus' sheep follow Him is because they follow His shepherding voice. They hear and know His voice. And that shepherding voice is a sense of He knows them. I know them, but they know me. because they hear my voice and follow when they hear it. And that's a theme throughout this chapter where Jesus is emphasizing that He's the Good Shepherd. He kind of will bring different aspects of the metaphor involved in the shepherding of what He is. But I want to highlight verses three to five to start with. To Him the porter openeth, and the sheep hear His voice, and He calleth His own sheep by name. Leadeth them out. You see that they hear his voice and yeah, he knows their names. He's calling them by name That's part of how you can get someone to listen to you as you speak their name You ever notice that if you're trying to get someone's attention if you speak their name It's much more effective resonates To him, the porter openeth, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him, for they know not the voice of strangers. Again, this familiarity, this built up familiarity. Now we know, of course, with Jesus, it's by the work of the Holy Spirit, but his sheep are coming for the reading and preaching of his word, coming for worship. And so they know the truth. They hear Christ's voice in the word, in the spirit. And they know when it's a false shepherd, misapplying, inappropriately teaching or abusing his word. No, that's not the voice of my shepherd. He wouldn't say that. He wouldn't say that. Look at verse 14. I am the good shepherd and know my sheep and am known of mine. Verse 16, and other sheep I have which are not of this fold, them also I must bring and they shall hear my voice. And there shall be one fold and one shepherd. And by the way, that's speaking of going out to the Gentiles. all the Gentiles to bring in together as one fold with the Jews. The shepherd knows his sheep by personal ownership, personal commitment to them, and by presence His sheep hear his voice and respond to it because he's always there speaking to them and he cares to speak to them. He cares to know their names. I mean, isn't that even, you know, the job of Adam before the fall is to name the animals. But, you know, we name our animals. We have affectionate names and even nicknames because of their behaviors. And, you know, the shepherd knows his sheep, names them even by things he knows about them and they know him. They naturally follow after his call, follow me. And this is really the important thing about seeking to be, whether it's chaplain ministry, ministry within the church, pastoral ministry, officers, pastoring our children, reaching out in personally evangelism and having an influence in the marketplace. is that we gain that trust and that right to speak by our regular presence that shows we actually care to be there. You know, loitering with intent again, in a sense. Ministry by walking about, they call it. And then seeking and hoping for the opportunity to speak a word to them. speak words into their life that will benefit them and ultimately speak Christ to them, that they would be his sheep and follow. And they're gonna be likely to follow if you know them and they know you by name and they know and recognize your voice and you recognize them. Dr. Michael Stewart, again, the professor of the class, this chaplaincy class, he said, it's important to get people to talk. during crisis. He was sharing about a terrible shooting that happened at the hospital while he was chaplain. It was a two shootings that day. It was horrible. And so it was a great huge crisis and he said one of the things we realize is important to get people to share and talk about what happened, what they observed, be working through it. You have to listen a lot and then affirm and advise appropriately. But Chaplain Curtis Sneed was also one of the men that spoke for the class. He's a chaplain of the Columbia, South Carolina Police Department. And he said, one of the best things you can do for someone going through something is get them in a room with others who have gone through what they have. You can think of the sermon not so long ago, 2 Corinthians, about minister through your wounds. The Lord gives us an opportunity to comfort others as we've been comforted. One moment, please. Gideon, you need to stop and obey your mother. Or you'll be facing me as soon as the service is over. That's enough, you know better. Stop. Good boy. And Juliana says, amen. But that idea of like, you know, speaking, having the presence of mind to say, okay, we need to get people talking. We need to get people talking and helping them process things. We need to get people who've been through the same thing talking and counseling with one another. That's a similar idea of having the presence of mind of what to do while we're in the presence with our body with others. First of all, I would say simply this, speak life. Speak life in others. That's a sermon message I gave to you a while back based on the Westminster Larger Catechism 135, asking what are the duties required in the sixth commandment, which is thou shalt not kill. And part of the answer related to the scripture we looked at, Proverbs 15 verse one, a soft answer turneth away wrath, but grievous words stir up anger. The point of that text I taught was Solomon teaches us not to reflect an angry man's manner, for it will only fan his foolish flame into burning him to death. Therefore, talk and act like a peacemaker. Use diplomacy in what you say and how you say it. Again, speak life. So as you're thinking about having the presence of mind, we don't wanna be those who say, well, I don't know what to say. We'll have the presence of mind to figure that out, to care enough to think it through, to have something to say. And often it isn't much that you need, but it's that you care enough to say something. And that is one of the things I would also say, say something like, I'm here for you. I care about you. How can I be of service? And then listen and involve yourself in the conversation. Another thing, speak words that heal. That's the message I preached for you on Proverbs 12, 18. which reads in part, the tongue of the wise is health. Or as one translation has it, the tongue of the wise brings healing. You can wisely help people with your words, so speak words that heal. Speak life, say something, speak words that heal. So often the work of chaplaincy, the work of ministry, so often when people are more likely to let you into their lives and have your influence, not only your presence but your words, is in crisis. That's very much often where the chaplain is serving. And we want to be recognizing our lives are full of crisis. We all have our moments and everyone has their moments where we can particularly minister if we're ready and we want to be looking to speak words that heal, that bring healing to those situations. Now recognize the context is self-sacrifice to save life. Most importantly, Jesus is the one who sacrifices himself as the good shepherd, but also as the lamb. And he is the one that therefore brings life and speaks of that life he brings to people. And we are to reflect that. Verses 9 to 11. I am the door. By me, if any man enter in, he shall be saved and shall go in and out and find pasture. The thief cometh not but for to steal and to kill and to destroy. I am come that they might have life and that they might have it more abundantly. I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd giveth his life. for the sheep. Verses 17 to 18, therefore doth my father love me because I laid down my life that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down and I have power to take it again. And verse 28, and I give unto them eternal life and they shall never perish. Neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. But you see, This is Jesus for you, but also so that you can sacrifice your own self to save others. Now keep in mind what we saw in our reading in Luke tonight, you need to have self-care as Jesus did, praying all night on the mountain, but it's because it is so self-sacrificial and therefore can be so depleting. It's not just about being present, but presenting your advice from the scriptures and the Savior, and frankly, not being too busy to listen. Not being too preoccupied to counsel. Not being unavailable to have a conversation. So often don't we say and others say, thank you for taking the time to talk with me. It's hard to find people to talk with. It's hard to find people who will really talk with you. And you know that. Now sometimes we can all be distracted and preoccupied with things. But some people are just not good listeners. And listening's an important part of talking, but also there's no tracking. They're not asking questions and commenting that demonstrates they're following along with you in a way that actually cares what you're talking about. That is care about you. So don't be, I don't have time for this, I'm too busy looking at your watch, and by the way, there's a whole list of how to listen properly in counseling, and it wouldn't be a bad thing for people to hear for thinking about listening to preaching as well, it might bring it to our attention sometime. But it does involve looking directly at the person, being still, showing attention, sitting forward, not doing anything that would distract the speaker or give the impression that I'm not listening. Simple things that are just very distracting. And don't demonstrate that I actually care about you and what you're saying. So that's the way you need to be as someone who would be having the presence of nine to speak is to know how to invite, initiate and carry a conversation somewhere that the person doesn't finally just stop trying because you're obviously tuning out and they won't try again. So with that in view, when you are able to have a conversation and you want that presence of mind to know how to help in your counsel and speaking, I wanna share a few nuggets that I found helpful from some of the readings for this class related to particularly counseling in the ministry. Alan Baker says, you need to know to ask these three questions to help people make progress. First, number one, dealing with the present. The question being, where are you now? Where are you now with the situation? Number two, the question relates to the preferred. Asking, where do you want to be? A lot of times people don't really sort these things through. And then number three, the process. How are you going to get where you want to be? Those are really smart questions. You can phrase it differently, but generally helping a person get a sense of where they are with this issue, where would they like to be? And how are you gonna get there? and guiding through the thinking through of that. I think that's helpful, wise counsel for you to have the presence of mind to help them to get the presence of mind to actually help them. Baker also shares these eight questions that are very useful for helping and guiding someone. Number one, why are you telling me this? Why are you telling me this? Number two, why are you telling this to me? Number three. Why are you telling this to me now? By the way, these are all diagnostic questions They are getting this is getting data and facts to be able to assess and advise Sometimes those things they may not have thought of or they need help thinking through and that can help really get somewhere Number four is very important now that you've talked with me about this. What do you need to do? Reminding the person that it's their responsibility, not yours. You're responsible to them, but not for them, as he wrote. And helping the person recognize their responsibility for themselves. What are they going to do? What do they need to do, that is? The fifth question, now that you've talked about this with me, what do you expect me to do for you? And that's helpful for drawing some boundary lines and gathering whether they might have the wrong expectation. But actually what he says is most people say, I just want you to listen, I just need somebody to talk to. Often they sort it out for themselves when they have someone to help them think it through. I so often say to people in my life, especially when I'm working on a sermon or something, thanks for letting me talk out loud about this. For me, that's really how I process things better, by thinking out loud, exploring ideas, hearing feedback, oh, that makes me think of this, and getting some guidance from comments sometimes. A lot of times I'll say thank you for helping me think that through, thank you for letting me talk about that out loud. Because some people don't want anything to do with that. Some people are very patient and care enough to actually comment, show that they're tracking, want to try to help. So you do ask, what are you hoping to get from me? But it's also helping to lead them to where we're going with some other questions. Number six, with all of this going on, how are things with your soul? The chaplain, the minister has an opportunity to ask, he made it really clear, psychologists aren't gonna ask that. Psychiatrists aren't gonna ask that. Although it's the study of the soul, how ironic, right? How are things with your soul? You might say it this way, how are you doing as an integrated whole person? How is your connection with Jesus, how is your connection with God impacted by your situation? And the goal is always having a direction toward and going closer to Jesus is really the goal. Number seven, with all of this going on, would you like me to pray with you? You're inviting, you're not imposing, and if they say no, you respect that. But a lot of times, you're the only one that will ever have asked or prayed for them. Number eight, and the last one, with all of this going on, what are you going to do now? What are you going to do now? Now he points out that this question migrates back to question four, what do you need to do? And now, what are you going to do now? Like a lot of times people go out of things like this with no real intention or plan or idea of really acting on any of it. What are you going to do now? And he points out, this brings us back to number four, what do you need to do? And it empowers the person to own their own issues. And it activates their ownership. Number four, empowers them to own their issues. Number eight, activates their ownership. Okay, you're gonna do this, right? Or what's the point of our conversation, right? I wanna actually help you, I wanna see you help yourself. Baker goes on to write this, chaplains encourage self-exploration and allow counselees to learn more about the impact of their thoughts and feeling upon their own, excuse me, upon their outward behavior. This type of counseling framework is designed to be short term with the intent of helping counselees recognize their distorted thoughts and practice useful coping skills. How much does Jesus and Paul say you want to change your problems? Change the way you think about it. Change the way you think. Right? In the Beatitudes and Philippians, so much of helping someone is to change how you're thinking. That's your problem. The way you're thinking. Especially this habitual kind of thinking that is destructive and not useful and obsessive. We are told in the scriptures to take every thought captive under the authority of the Lord Jesus Christ. He also says, keep the long look, and I think this is really important for ministry and witnessing and serving others. Inspire others to become better versions of themselves. Help people look beyond the moment with a vision for the future. Without a vision, the scriptures say the people perish. And often there's no vision, there's no looking ahead, there's just always reacting. Often reacting to things that aren't even real, it's just thoughts bouncing back and need to be let go of. helping them, what are you going to do now? What do you need to do to get from here to here? And what are you going to do now? You see, just like Jesus went out of His way to go to Samaria in John chapter 4 to be near the woman at the well. He went way out of His way to have the presence, the ministry of presence of His body in her presence at the well. But not only that, then He spoke to her. He initiated a conversation. He carried on a conversation to help her look at herself and to look inside herself and frankly deal with herself. And she kept asking different questions to try to disguise and avert and distract. And he kept going right back, let's look at yourself. Let's look inside yourself. No more of this distractions and jumping all over the place. Focus on yourself and your relation to me in your presence right now with what I have to tell you. So that she looked to him for the water of life. and she drank of it in him. And she and her whole village were saved. Yes, by his presence in her presence, but most importantly, by his words to her. In fact, the village said many of them were saved because of the words they heard him speak that she spoke to them. But then when they met him in person, now we believe for ourselves. But you see, the words do matter. The gospel is words. such as believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved. Come to me, you who are weary and heavily laden, I'll give you rest. My yoke is easy, my burden is light. Trust in the Lord with all thine heart and lean not on thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him and he will make thy paths straight. Words can make a world of difference. Even when you don't think the person is listening, perhaps incapable of listening spiritually, perhaps incapable of listening because they're asleep. What do I mean? Well, I'd like to share with you again from Chaplain Mike Gilson, who served in the Spiritual Care Service Unit at Kaiser, who does serve at Kaiser Permanente Zion Hospital. I shared with you about his ministry to that Vietnamese man in the morning, and I want to share something else today. He was so excited to talk about all these examples in just six months of chaplaincy at the hospital so far, of the ministry of presence and how profound it has been to serve. He shared about a lady who was in a medically induced coma, now on three weeks. When somebody's put into a medically induced coma, it's to be able to try to help them survive. He shared about a couple of these situations where he would speak to them, and people would speak to them, and they're actually getting something from it, though you can't know it by what you see. This one lady, she's in a medically induced coma for three weeks, and they extubated her, which means they took out the tube for breathing, assisted breathing. And so a lot of times they can't even speak for a while because of that There's a there's a whole nother amazing story that I would love to share with you, but maybe another time But they extubated her. However, the medical team thought that she'd need to go to comfort care Three weeks. She's been on a medically induced a coma a coma hopefully to be able to take care of her but now they're They're taking the breathing tube out and they're putting her into comfort care most likely is the plan. That's the place where patients go to manage their symptoms and give them comfort when there's no cure available for the patients and they are likely nearing the end of life. That was the discussion of probably where she's going to need to go now. Now, during that time of being in a coma for three weeks, Chaplain Mike would go to her and pray for her, but he says, I wasn't just gonna go there and pray, I was gonna talk to her. So I talked to her, I'd sit down and I would share with her about many things. I'd share with her about my wife, my children, my grandchildren. I'd share about how we always have dinner on Friday nights because my wife's theme is if you feed them, they will come. And sure enough, because they have a special dinner every Friday, all the kids and their kids come. And he would just talk about life, talking to her, but she's in a coma. She's not interacting. Her eyes are closed. There's no obvious hearing of anything. But he did this because he knew what some of you do know who've been in similar situations. They will tell you that when someone is dying, the last thing to go is their hearing. And so it's really important to keep ministering to them by words in their presence. And we know speak the scriptures, sing the scriptures, reassure the person of the things they know. He would sit with her and pray for her and he would talk with her. And then one day, he walked in, this happened with another patient too, I wanna tell you now, I'll probably try to bring it into another sermon. He walked in, this lady left for dead essentially, and he noticed her eyes were open. He was the first to notice. Did you see this? When did this happen? What? Her eyes are open? The nurse goes call, everybody's rushing into the room, they can't believe her eyes are open. They're shocked. He couldn't stay at that moment, but he came to visit the next morning. And when he came into her room, she was sitting up eating breakfast. And he asked her, how's your breakfast? Good. And then he said, do you know who I am? And her answer was this. She said, yes, you're Chaplain Mike. You visited me a lot. but she was in a coma the whole time. How did she know? Because he kept talking to her while she was in a coma. Chaplain Mike said that while it's not always the case, there are numerous accounts that people who are in a coma hear the people speaking to them. He said one patient said that while I believe it was the one he referred to as the Miracle Man and made San Diego News, I'm holding back on the story because it's long and exciting and I couldn't figure out my notes well enough. I'm gonna email him or call him to confirm some details. He might have been speaking about this lady or it was the testimony of another similar example. In that case, it made the local news, Miracle Man, who was in a medical induced coma, was gonna be left for dead as well, couldn't have kidney or heart transplant because of it. And all of a sudden he woke up. One day he said he's walking by and his eyes were open, same thing. When did this happen? And he went like this, only thing he could do. Then a day or so later, Eventually he's healed and out of the hospital. And it might have been him. It's either he or that lady that said this. When I was in the coma, it brought great comfort to me to know my family was there. I could hear them speaking and feel them stroking my hair. While I could not understand what they were saying, their voices were like sweet music in my ears. So comforting. Even the voice, if not the words. The presence of mind to say, I'm not just gonna go on because this lady can't talk to me or listen to me. I'm not just gonna pray for her quickly, I'm gonna sit down and I'm gonna talk to her. Beloved, have the ministry of presence of body be there. and then assess the situation and needs and speak words to heal. Eager to apply Proverbs 25 11, a word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in pictures of silver. Beloved care enough to be there as you are there with someone Be listening, tracking, engaging, counseling. Have the ministry of presence of mind. That is the message for you this evening, this morning, have the ministry of presence of body. This evening, what to do next? Have the ministry of presence of mind. Let us pray. Oh Lord God, we do thank you that not only did you come in bodily presence, but you spoke to us the words of life. And we pray that you would help us to have that same ministry of presence of body and mind to speak life into others and to have the wisdom and the commitment to know what to say and when and how. Oh Lord, we do ask that you would give us over time that same sense of those you would give us a sharing of life with an influence that they would know our voice and we know them. And as we would seek for them to follow us, as Paul says, to follow you. that they would know your voice, savingly, and minister to others. We pray all this in the name of Jesus Christ, our Lord, the word, the truth, the resurrection, and the life, and all your people said.