It's Matt Slick Live! Matt is the founder and president of the Christian Apologetics Research Ministry, found online at karm.org. When you have questions about Bible doctrines, turn to Matt Slick Live for answers. Taking your calls and responding to your questions at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick. Everybody, welcome to the show. It's me, Matt Slick. You're listening to Matt Slick Live. Today's date is August 29th, 2024. Hope you're all having a good day. I'm having a good day by God's grace, which is always the case. And if you want to give me a call, as usual, the number is 877-207-2276. I want to hear from you. Give me a call. Also, if you want to email me, you can do that. Just send an email to info at karm.org. Info at karm.org and put in the subject line, radio comment, radio question, and that should work. We are live on Clubhouse we're live on rumble. We're live on YouTube and Also on several stations radio stations wherever you are driving It'd be kind of interesting to just to hear people where they're coming from. You know, I listen to me on the in the car or in podcasts later or whatever it might be and be kind of curious to see or to hear I should say Hey, I want to let you know that we stay on the air by your support. If you are so inclined to support us, we just ask that you would go to karm.org forward slash donate. C-A-R-M dot O-R-G forward slash donate and support us. You would prefer that your support come in for the radio show, because that's what a lot of people are listening. Just put an email in there, too. You email us later, you know, info at karm.org and say, hey, you know, I'm so and so donated this much. And could you go for the radio? And that's what we ask. And so there you go. All right. Oh, I can't think of anything else. Let's get to Alan from Virginia. Alan, welcome. You are on the air. Hey, Matt, how's it going? Oh, it's going, buddy. I'm hanging in there. More hanging than in there, but I'm hanging in there. There you go. All right. What do you got, man? Do you remember? It's been a while. Do you remember a conversation about me potentially going to the new church at Swift Creek Baptist? Like you going to some church? Well, I visited. No, it's all good. I visited it and asked the pastor some questions. Okay. So fill me in. What happened? So most of the questions were actually about Calvinism or Arminianism, because that was one of the things I wanted to get it. And some of the comments from our discussion was we didn't have much time, maybe 10 minutes of talking, I guess. Well, I think he says I, my, my opinion is that he at least has a foothold in the door of Arminianism. Um, but I don't necessarily think he's a five point Arminian. Um, so, and from what I'm reading, I think, I believe that some Arminians don't hold to the five points and that there's nuance in between. Is that right? Yes. Okay. So I'll get down to the list. So, he says that he does not affirm Calvinism or a many inism and states that he is somewhat in the middle. He affirms partial depravity, um, and denies total depravity. Um, he did mention that he has spoken with a lot of Calvinists in the past, but so does not affirm Calvinism. Anybody also has Calvinist, uh, he, he said that he has Calvinist members of the church. Okay. So, He doesn't believe that faith is a warp, but may agree with warps, and that they can be from the heart, such as looking at a woman in lust. He says some of the Calvinists hear from faith alone, but then I commented to him, well, Roman Catholics also affirm faith alone, so I can't just take him on as a word for that. Actually, they don't affirm faith alone. Catholics deny that faith alone in justification. Yeah, they do. They deny it. Really? I thought I remember hearing one of their conversations where they said they believe in faith alone. No, no. I know the official position. For example, in Canon 9 of the Canons of Trent on justification, it's 9 and 24, I believe it is. I'm paraphrasing, but it says if anyone teaches that it is by faith alone that one is justified, that is to say without works, without this, without that, let it be anathema. In paragraph 2060 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, it says that you attain salvation through faith, baptism, and the observance of the commandments. Paragraph 2036 and 2070, there's a combination of those paragraphs where it says that the Ten Commandments, keeping them, is necessary for salvation. Okay, so yeah, they deny faith. The doctrine of faith plus works, but People who don't understand doctrine would say faith alone for Roman Catholics, is that correct? People who don't know what official Roman Catholic theology are would say, actually what they would say is they're saved by grace alone. And what they're doing is playing with the words. And they're not being malicious, okay? This is how they're trained. This is what they think. So grace alone means God's gracious work in you through your works and your faith saves you. So it's by grace alone, you see? That's what they do. But they'll say the works that God gives you are the works that are graciously given to you, and as you participate in them, that you are demonstrating your faith and working your faith out in such a way that the grace of God will work in you and through you. Okay? Interesting. Okay. He also affirms election, so he doesn't believe all can be elected. Well, I guess I shouldn't say that, but he says he affirms election, but not the same election as Calvinism. Well, election means being chosen. And, you know, what Reformed theology says, people, individuals are chosen for salvation, but God chooses people to do various things who are not saved also. So, you know, but anyway, yeah. But he also believes that we're chosen before the foundation of the world, but I didn't get his affirmation on if he believed that is election, like a salvation election, or a different form of election. You can ask him. If it's God's election, you can ask him, is it based on foreseen works that he says that God sees people will do? That'd be a false teaching. But you can ask him, because you know that you're going to do a good thing, that's why he picks you. I asked him about Philippians 129, and he struggled to explain what it means. He focused on the suffering and pseudo-denied it. What was that? I'm laughing because, yeah, a lot of people struggle with Philippians 129. And he pseudo-denied that it is speaking of being granted faith. He denied as being granted faith, that people are granted faith? He didn't completely deny, but he basically denied. Yeah. I'll just offer a logical statement. Is it the case that God grants people faith, or is it not the case that God grants people faith? It's a true dichotomy in this place. And so you can ask him the question. Because a lot of times what people do When you ask us a specific question, for example, is Jesus God in flesh? And they go, well, you see, blah, blah, blah. And I'll say, is it the case that he is God in flesh, or is it not the case that he's God in flesh? Which is the situation? So you pin them that way to get them to answer a question, because a lot of times people don't want to answer a real question. What they want to do is him and ha around things. And let's see, he at least affirmed that Jesus paid the sin debt on the cross. So that's good. That's good. You can ask him. Did he pay it for everybody? Yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah. Did he? Yes, he did. Well, then is all our debt canceled? All the sin debt canceled, everybody? Yeah, but I thought. Yeah. OK. Yeah, it was like a 10-minute conversation, because he had to go, and it was after a class, but yeah. He didn't get much into free will, predestination, or women pastors and deacons. This is pretty big for me, assuming he pretty much has a lot more of a foothold than the door for Arminianism and Calvinism. He denies regeneration before faith, and I believe he said that he affirms faith before regeneration. Is he talking temporally or logically? Do you know the difference? We didn't have time to really get into that. Okay, do you know the difference then? Actually, what was that? Do you know the difference between temporal priority and logical priority? I believe so. I've heard your light bulb explanation and stuff. Good. That's good enough. You can ask it when people say, well, if faith precedes regeneration, then, um, you know, say, well, are we saying a few seconds here that are you saying that we have a believer who's also not regenerate at the same time? How do you have that? You know, just questions, you know, problem with temporal priority. And that's the last point I have. But from when I was gathering with him, and I actually scheduled, we're actually, he's willing to have a discussion with me about two or three weeks from now. So we'll see if that goes through. And then by that point, I should be able to have a list of more things I can ask without being constrained to like 10 minutes. always sound like a good guy within orthodoxy. I mean, you know, I'd ask other questions too, like, is Jesus a man right now? You know, and, uh, did he rise from the dead in the same body he died in just to make sure, can you have women, pastors and elders and, uh, is Roman Catholicism Christian? I'd ask those questions too. There's a, there's another thing I wanted to ask you. Do you believe partial depravity is faith plus works because, uh, they believe that they have, that their choice matters. Now, we had to define our term to talk about what partial depravity is. So, you know, it would I would like to study that and see if there is an official Armenian position. But as far as I understand it, Arminianism, real Arminianism, they believe in total depravity. That's what I've read, too. I don't know. Yes. So basically, it's like they're saying, excuse me, it's like saying they're just mostly depraved, you know, just mostly, so that they're still capable of making moral choices. And so what this is, is human-centered theology, okay? Well, God wouldn't just choose people. He's going to make it so that you're able to make a free will choice. And I would ask somebody, well, can you show me that in Scripture? Which they can't. And why do you say that? It usually comes down to their idea of what fair is. Yeah, I view Arminianism as being prideful and trying to take away some of God, some or all of God's sovereignty to show off. Yeah, sometimes. But, you know, Armenians, they love the Lord, you know, and they're Christians and they put their trust and faith in Christ or just inconsistent and some theological fine points. But that's OK. You know what? It's all right. My view is, if it is actually faith plus works, then I wouldn't consider them Christian if works can be done from the heart. If they say that works keep them saved or get them saved in combination with the faith, then we've got to give them the gospel. They need to have the gospel presented. It could be that someone's regenerate and just ignorant, and you've got to correct them lovingly and patiently. Yeah, yeah. But if someone says, no, you have to do good works in order to please God, in order to keep your salvation, well, then they don't know what the gospel really is, and they need to preach it to them, and they need to correct it. If they would say that them So say if they believe that God grants them grace, like basically they believe in irresistible grace. if that is the case, and that the deciding factor is if they choose to accept it or not, do you believe that works? No. No, it's just an inconsistency, because we do choose, even in Reformed theology. God's regeneration enables us to make that choice in which he grants us faith, so it does happen. Okay, buddy, there's the break, because we've got to go. All right? So, let me know how it goes with him. Call back again, okay? Hey folks, we'll be right back after these messages. Please stay tuned. We want you to keep listening. We'll be right back. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick. Hey, everybody, welcome back to the show. If you want to give me a call, the number is 877-207-2276. Let's get on with Alberto from Georgia. Welcome, buddy. You're on the air. Yeah, good evening, Matt Slick. My question is why some pastors teach that Romans chapter six, And verse three and four that they teach that that that's water baptism. And also they said that if you don't get back to the water baptism, you cannot be saved. But well, that Romans six and three is referred to baptized into Christ and not water baptism, because it says in verse four, been buried with him through baptism into death. And so the general consensus is that when you're immersed in water, that that is the fulfillment of being buried with him through baptism into death. And that's why they would say that. Okay. But that, that, that, that, but that's Roman three. I mean, Roman six, verse three and four, that's referred to baptize into Christ spiritually or wash your water baptism. That's my question. Well, some people, uh, okay. Maybe they'll open the door here. Baptism is an identification and you can go to 1 Corinthians 10 for example and it says that I do not want you to be unaware brethren that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. Now they walked across dry land and were never touched by that water so they were baptized into Moses. So baptizing into deals with the issue of identification. And we can get into more phraseology from stuff like that, but that's what it basically means, okay? So baptized into. All right, so when it talks about being baptized into, it's spoken of in Romans 6.3, baptized into Christ, baptized into his death, 1 Corinthians 10.2, which I just said, baptized into Moses. Then in 1 Corinthians 12, 13, we're all baptized into one body. And Galatians 3, 27, for all who are baptized into Christ have clothed yourself with Christ. So I'm not exactly sure how to say exactly what that phrase, baptized into, means. But we can get theological on this. So we have different kinds of baptism. We have water baptism. Now, Jesus, when he was baptized, I believe he was sprinkled because he had to fulfill the requirements of entering into the priesthood according to the Old Testament law. In Numbers 8, 7, the requirement was to be sprinkled. That's what the Bible says. And so I hold to that position. I don't have a problem with that. I don't have to get a lot of noise in the background, everybody. Go ahead. And also, the baptism is a baptism of fire, the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which deals with the charismatic gifts. There's a baptism of persecution. So there's a baptism of just water, which is a covenant sign, at the very least, in relationship to the Christian church in Christ. So there's a lot here. So he said, would he have been baptized into Christ? So you could be baptized into Christ, hypothetically, if sprinkling was the way it was done, that would still qualify, or if pouring was the way it was done. Because people say, and realize, I've got to give this to people who are listening whose eyebrows are shooting up. They're going, what? Because in Acts 1-4, Jesus says that people will be baptized, John baptized with water, but you'll be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now. with the baptism of the Holy Spirit is always, in the Old Testament, is prophesied as pouring. It's always said the Holy Spirit will be poured upon you in Joel 2, 28, 29 and Acts 1, 17, 18. So I'm just saying that the word baptism has a lot of meanings. And when we get to this particular place, and then we say, well, what does it mean here? Baptized into Christ had been baptized into his death. I would say that it's an identification with Christ. that you have gone through a process, a ceremony that is sacred in the Christian church. And you've been baptized into, identifying into and with the death and into Christ. And so when you are baptized into death in verse four, just as Christ was raised, you'll be raised too. It's an identification with covenantally as a sign with what is going on in that act of baptism with what Christ did. You get a lot of noise in the background there, okay? I know in the street. You're walking on the street or in a car? No, in a car. So this is why I'm just saying it's a tough one to analyze and just get exactly what it is. It's just a tough one. Okay. So it's a quick question. If a person accepts Christ and gets baptized into water, but then they say, well, he truly never got truly which was a great convert. Now, was he still baptized into Christ spiritually, even though he got baptized into water, even though he didn't have the ability to repent? If he's a true believer and he gets baptized, he's baptized into Christ, yeah. Sure. Uh-huh. Okay. Okay. All right. But time will tell, though, right? Eventually. Yeah. Yeah, of course. Not a problem. OK. All right. All right, man. God bless. OK. God bless. OK. All right. Oh, that's OK. It happens. OK, now let's get to Matt from North Carolina. Matt, welcome. You're on the air. Hi, Matt. How you doing? Hey, man. I'm hanging in there. Hanging in there. What do you got, buddy? Whenever God calls his people out of the Babylon church and Revelation, Is that a particular religion, or is that the city? Is it both? Just a question I've had. Well, Babylon was an actual city in the Old Testament, and it was in Mesopotamia. And so it was also pretty bad. So it has come to symbolize rebellion against God and bad stuff so when And yeah, I'd like to know the exact verse you're talking about but when it talks about Christians being taken out of Babylon then there's and it calls it the great harlot then Then we're not sure Okay, because some say the Great Harlot is the Roman Catholic Church. Some say it's a world government. Some have even said I've heard that it's the United States of America. I mean, you know, you hear different things. And so I can't tell you exactly what it is. All right? Okay, okay. See, that's, my view is it's the Catholic Church and and like all co-religions mixing together and possibly Judaism mixing together, but That's just my particular view So it's possible. It's possible. We do know that there's gonna be no Babylon was full of commerce money and paganism and Evil was occurring in it Well, the Roman Catholic Church is full of commerce and money and paganism. So that's why some people say that's what it is, because it's throughout Europe and claims to be true Christianity, yet it purports idolatry, a false priesthood, and a false gospel. So that it could be, but it could be also something else that comes up later. It might even be the literal city of Babylon. It might be that there might become a political center of power with the Antichrist there, and Christians might be there and are called out. Who knows? I just don't know. Okay? All right, Matt. Thanks, man. All right, buddy. Wish I had a better answer for you, but I can only give you, you know, educated guesses on that one. All right? Okay. All right. All right. Bye. God bless. All right. Hey, folks, there's a break. If you want to give me a break, a break, a call, the number's 877-207-2276. Why don't you give me a call? Be right back after these messages. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick. Oh, man, messed up. Hold on. Let me try it again. Welcome back to the show. If you want to give me a call, the number is 877-207-2276. Let's get to Jim from Minneapolis. Welcome. You're on the air. Hi, thanks for having me. All right. I just saw wrestling with the, uh, Your stance on free will, I guess, and justification of faith and baptism and all that stuff. I guess my question is, so are you saying that faith, you say it's granted by God. Are you saying that that is not a decision on our part, or are you saying that it's just, it's like preordained? It is preordained, and it is granted, and it is our decision. All of it. Okay? Okay. Okay. So is it our decision and then it's granted? No. Or is it granted and then our decision? Now, if it was our decision to believe, then that would violate certain aspects of Scripture. What the Bible says is in Philippians 1.29. It's a verse I go to frequently when I'm discussing theology, particularly soteriology, the doctrine of salvation. It says, to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake. So if God grants that you suffer, it means it's something that He has granted that's going to occur to you. But it also is the case that he's done this that you believe now the the word To grant in this case is the air is passive Indicative and what that means in the Greek is past tense and passive means that you receive the action so God has granted to you to believe in Christ, but you do the believing you actually do it and And God, and you can also go to Acts 13, 48, as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed. So when you ask the question, you ask a three-part question, the answer is yes to all of them. God ordains it because he appoints, it's Acts 13, 48, he grants, Philippians 1, 29, and you do the believing because he grants that you believe, okay? So it's not a decision by us at all? Yes, it is. How is it a decision if it's preordained? If it's preordained, that I have a schedule to, like on Tuesday, I have a phone meeting with somebody at 1130. It's prearranged. Does it mean I don't have free will? Does it mean that that person doesn't have free will if it's prearranged? So the free will, if it's preordained that you're going to be there, So we don't have the choice whether we actually follow up or go to that place? So is that not just an argument against free will? I'm trying to illustrate one point. You said if it's preordained, we don't have free will. That doesn't follow. Yeah. Okay, so here's something that's arranged. I have an appointment next week. I have an appointment next week. Unless something weird happens, but I have an appointment. It's all prearranged. It's pre-scheduled. Does it mean then that I don't have free will because something is prearranged? The answer is no. Well, you made the decision to schedule that, right? Yes. So the decision came, the free will decision came before the actual preordained meeting. I just don't see all that analogy. Oh, I see what you're saying. Yeah, I get what you're saying now. Okay. So let me ask you, are you a Christian? I am. Okay. What church do you go to? I go to Free Grace in Elk River. Okay. So here's what the Bible says. This is what it says. Also, we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to his purpose, who works all things after the counsel of his will. That's Ephesians 1.11. So God works all things after the counsel of his will. Do you agree? Yeah. What do you mean yeah? Yeah, no, I did. Okay, so what about the Adam, what about the eating of the apple in the garden of Eden? Hold on, one thing at a time, one thing at a time. Hold on, hold on, one thing at a time. Okay, so God works all things after the counsel of his will. Does the phrase all things include your free will choices? God, to me that just seems like it takes all free, there's no choice if it's already preordained. Well then let's talk about God here. Do you think God is up there in heaven squinting his eyes, looking down, going, come on, please, please, do this, please, please, please, oh man, dang, he didn't do it. Is that what God does? No. No, I don't think that. Good. Is God sovereignly in control of everything or are there things that happen that God is like, oh my goodness, I hope this doesn't happen, which is Uh, so that I kind of wrestle with a bit because since the, you know, since inception or the beginning of time and this world and the fallen that it's taken through the garden and the free will that people have. Yes. So there's no freedom of choice in the believing in Christ because It's already preordained. God ordained that you have... I guess it's on top of the sinner's prayer when you're asking to... Hold on. You made a statement. I want to address the statement. Then you're just going on. Okay. So I want to just run this by you. God ordained that you have free will inside of His sovereignty. Would you agree with that? Yes, 100%. Okay, good. So then that means your free will and God's sovereignty are compatible, right? Yeah. Yep. Okay. Did Jesus have free will? Uh, boy. Did Jesus have free will? He's God. I would say yeah. Yeah, he was God, but he was also a human, right? So I would say yes and gosh. I'd say yes and no. Yes, because he was human. He felt everything. It's a hard one there. I just haven't thought of that. Yeah, well, how about this? Does God have free will? No. No, God can only do good. He's only just. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. So God doesn't have free will is saying that he can't do anything he wants to do. It's something else has to work on him to make him do stuff. He's not free. That's what you're saying. Yeah, so check it out. God is only justice, right? He's only good. He can't be bad. He doesn't have a choice to do the double work. He's only good. Look, let's define free will in terms of God's character, not ours. That's what you're doing. You're reversing what should be done. God is free because he is the true free being. And he can only do that which is consistent with his own nature. He's holy. He can only do holy things. So free will is the ability. Free will is the ability. Free will is the ability. Dude. Hold on. Let me define what it is. Hold on. Take a breath, okay? Hold on. So free will is the ability to make a choice that's consistent with your nature but is not forced on you. Okay? yeah right okay so does God have free will yes okay good now Jesus is God in flesh and the attributes of both of his natures are ascribed to the person so Jesus walked on water Jesus says I'm thirsty so he has the attributes of divinity so does Jesus have free will? the answer is yes Now, John 5.19, Jesus says the son can do nothing of himself unless it is something he sees the father doing. In John 5.30, Jesus says I can do nothing of my own initiative. If you say Jesus has free will, and he does because he's God, how is it then that he can only do what the father has him do? Logic would say that God who's free, Christ is free, came to do the will of the Father, he has the freedom to do God's will, and he's still free at the same time. Okay? Got it. That makes sense. And then as far as free will and people coming to Christ or coming to believe, it's preordained, but yet you still make the decision because we have our sinful nature to go the other route. So there's still a choice on our part, or no? Our sinful nature means that we'll only choose consistently with our nature, sinfully. So God changes us. He makes us born again. He causes us to be born again. 1 Peter 1. And then the justification part for the forgiveness of sins and becoming Christians. So we're justified through our faith. Justified by faith, but look at look at this John 1 12 and 13 says this But as many as received him so you do the receiving you actually receive him you do it all right, okay? That's in the active voice which means you're performing the action, but as many as received him to them He gave the right to be called the children of God even to those who believe in His name, who are born not of the blood, nor the will of flesh, nor the will of man, but of God." When we get back, we'll talk about that. Okay, so hold on, buddy. Hey, folks, I'll be right back after these messages. Please stay tuned. Oh, good theology. I love it. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick. Everybody, welcome back to the show. As soon as they reactivate Jim, I don't think our deucer's going to do that little click there. He did that. Let's get back on with Jim. Hey, you there? Yep, I'm here. All right, now. Yeah, no, just to recap. Oh, go ahead. Sorry, go ahead. No, I was going to say, I read the two verses. And what we're trying to do is show you the Bible teaches this. What do we do with it? And how do we make sense of it? That's the claim, okay? So in John 1, 12 and 13, it says, but as many as received him, so you did the receiving. No problem. To them, that's to you, he gave the right to be called the children of God, to become the children of God, even to those who believe in his name. And you did that. You received him and you believed. And it says, who, these who do this, who were born, not of the blood or the will of the flesh, nor the will of man, but of God. So wait a minute. What do we do with this? Most people, what they'll do is they'll say, well, they'll explain it away. They go on to something else. And it has to be that we follow the blonde-haired, blue-eyed Caucasian surfer Jesus who's standing at the door of your heart asking permission for you to let him in. That's what they want us to follow because it's easy. But what I do is I say, no, no, no, no. Let's look at this. God appoints people to eternal life, Acts 13.48, and he grants that they have faith, Likuds 1.29. Jesus even said in John 6.65, you cannot come to me unless it's granted to you from the Father. John 6.65. so we have to make it all work and there's how I put it together God ordains whatever shall come to pass he called us for salvation from the beginning for salvation second Thessalonians 2.13 he grants we have faith Philippians 1.29 he grants that we come to Christ John 6.65 but it is we who actually do the receiving and the believing John 1.12 but we do this not initiated out of our own conscience, but what God has done in his regeneration, because he causes us to be born again, 1 Peter 1.3. And then, in that state, we freely choose God of our own will, because he's fixed it for us. Okay? Yeah, that's good. I appreciate the explanation. I didn't quite understand how the free will would fit in with with the preordained or predestined stuff, and so I've kind of wrestled with that. So I appreciate that. Here, let me show you something else, too. We've got nobody waiting. Let me do this. I'm going to read two verses and then go someplace else and read another something about what this says here. Check this out. This is Acts 4, 27 and 28. For truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever your hand and your purpose predestined to occur." Now, they were gathered against Jesus. Okay, so Pontius Pilate and Herod, those are two individuals, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel. That's two people groups. Against Jesus, he's talking about his killing them, okay? To do, they were gathered by God to do what your hand and your purpose predestined to occur. God predestined them to do this. That's what it says, okay? Now check this out, Acts 2.23. This man, Peter, he's talking smack to the Jews. He's talking smack to the Jews, okay? I'll go back to verse 22. Men of Israel, listen to these words. Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through him in your midst, just as you yourselves know. This man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put him to death. Who's responsible? Those guys are. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, the predetermined and all that stuff, I mean, it definitely makes sense, obviously, because he's outside of space and time, so I just had a hard time wrestling with that. notion and and free will it just didn't make sense to me but now that you say it and put it like that it definitely makes sense yeah and this is a tough one and most people they don't want to get into it they don't want to study this they don't want to have their brains hurt trying to figure it out yeah okay because I think a lot of it would be coming back to right well then okay now explain pain and suffering right I mean You know, that would probably be a remodel that I would get. Well, I would say God's the one who ordains it. When we say ordination, we don't mean that God is directly causing every bit of suffering. He certainly can. And in Exodus 4.11, he says to Moses, who makes the eye blind, the ear deaf, the tongue dumb? Is it not I, not me, the Lord? I'm doing this. So he does that in some instances. In other instances, it's not necessarily the case. When I show this to people, they're just blown away. Because they're not taught, in my opinion, a full scope of theology. About God, His nature, and the work of Christ, and all this stuff. Because it's too tough for people. Because they don't like it, and they don't want to think that deeply. But here's something else, even more. We've got nobody waiting. I'll show some more stuff to you. God incited David to number Israel. That's 2 Samuel 24, 1. It says, now again, the anger of the Lord burned against Israel, and it incited David against them to say, go number Israel and Judah. So God incited David to number Israel. But also, Satan moved David to number Israel in 1 Chronicles 21, 1. And it says, Satan stood up against Israel and moved David to number Israel. Yet, it was David who sinned in doing it. And that's 2 Samuel 24 10. You see, it's really, this is, God is greater than what's being taught in a lot of places. Oh, it's just up to you and your wisdom. It's up to you. God just gives you the gospel. It's just up to you. That's all it is. Is that what the Bible says? It does not. Okay? Making a lot of noise back there, buddy. Yeah, it's raining pretty hard. That's good for me. I'll keep listening and whatnot, but yeah, it's raining pretty hard. This is the work of theology. It's good stuff, and it makes a lot of people upset, but that's what it teaches. That's what the Bible says. What we do with it is what was important. Yeah, because you get the answer like, you know, people, well, how can you, you know, be for a God who allows this stuff to happen? Well, because we have free will, because we are made in the image of God, and the attributes that God has given us include the idea of our limited forms of sovereignty, which reflect God's ultimate sovereignty. his creative work and our creative work he created life but we create organization and subduing the earth etc and we continue life by having children and subdue the earth so God has allowed us to represent him but in that rebellion that Adam did against God he has allowed us to continue in our representative position of him as we are working in the world and suffering and sin come into the world because of Adam's sin and also continues because of our actions and rebellion against God. So he allows evil to occur because it's his will to allow it to occur. He's not the author of evil. He doesn't make anybody do it. But nothing that is bad that happens can occur without God's ordination. What we mean by that is it has to be within his sovereign plan, otherwise it would not occur. So it's within his plan to allow people to do exactly what it is that he will permit them to do, whether it be evil or good. Okay? Yeah, that makes sense. How do you feel about... I've heard it said that the free will and the ability to make decisions is because God wants a relationship with us and you can't force love. No, you see, that's humanist philosophy. The reason God does this is because he wants relationship. He wants relationship. That came out of the book by Paul Young, The Shack. And it's just humanist philosophy. He wants free will because he wants relationship. Now, we were created for God's glory. That's Isaiah 43.7. Christ was crucified for the glory of God. Philippians 2.11. And God desires that we have relationship with Him or fellowship with Him through the person and work of Christ. And that's 1 Corinthians 1.9. And God wants that. But to say that you have to have fellowship, you have to have free will, well, there's truth in that. But I don't like it when people say, God wants this, and this is why we have to be like this, because we'll elevate ourselves. That's the kind of thing I stand against, that they look at themselves. This is why God wants to look pretty well, because of me, because of what I can do. And I have a problem with that kind of attitude. OK? All right? Yeah. I didn't mean anything by faith, by words. That's not what I was implying, more or less a choice. Yeah, I gotcha. Yeah, no problem. Sounds great. It's really kind of hard to hear, so I'm going to hang up and turn the radio up. It'll be easier to hear because this rain is just too loud. All right, man. Sound good, buddy. God bless. OK. Appreciate it. All right. Well, that was Jim from Minneapolis, Minnesota. What he was doing was asking some of the more difficult questions in theology. And for a lot of people, they don't have the mental energy to be able to sort through it. And that's okay. It doesn't mean they're inferior. It doesn't mean they're dumb. Sometimes people just can't deal with it for a lot of reasons. And that's okay. God doesn't require that we do. But he does teach these things that I'm telling you that are in the scriptures. So what do we do with them? If you can't understand them, then just submit to them and say, I don't know how it works. I don't know how God can sovereignly work all things. And yet we also have that freedom. I don't know how it works. And that's a perfectly acceptable answer to say, I just don't know. And though I have thought about this a lot over the years, it doesn't mean I've solved the problems or all of the intellectual problems. I shouldn't say problems, I should say challenges. Because there are a lot of these issues that we just can't get to and that we have to, well, we've got to try. We've got to try and figure them out. But the scriptures do teach a lot of things about the sovereignty of God. They teach that He is the one who's in control. He is sovereign. So check this out. So in Job 37, 6 through 13, it talks about how moisture comes from the clouds and disperses from the clouds and lightning comes there and it goes on and changes direction. Whether for correction or for his world or for loving kindness, he causes it to happen. In Psalm 135.6, whatever the Lord pleases, He does. Proverbs 16.1, the plans of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the Lord. Proverbs 16.33, the lot is cast into the lap, but every decision is from the Lord. Daniel 4.35, all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing and He does according to His will in the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth. Jeremiah 10.23, I know, O Lord, that a man's way is not in himself nor is it in man who walks to direct his steps. And there's more verses. I just don't have time to get through them. I'm trying to show you God is sovereign. He's not the cause of evil. And yet at the same time we're free. Now how does that work? Now that's worth a great discussion. So anyway, there you go. We are out of time. May the Lord bless you. And by His grace, we'll be back on the air tomorrow, Friday. We'll not be on the air on Monday. And I just want to remind you folks, please consider supporting us with anything. Just go to karm.org. C-A-R-M dot O-R-G forward slash donate. We would love it. We need that support. And may the Lord bless you. And by His grace, back on the air tomorrow. We'll talk to you then. God bless. Bye. you