this is the first debate newsreader nine thirty w f m d by high-low auto sales and tire pros of frederick i'm for a skinner shows online at the w f m d dot com keyword faith if you go there you'll find uh... information about the show my bio to care about that uh... you also find i think most importantly links to a podcast previous shows i want to point you there because the last two weeks you heard shows focusing on the book and movie the shack had tom while who's a pastor with church of god on the show and give you a little peek behind the scenes we had all sorts of technical problems you might imagine a show like this that's focusing on the issues that we focus on uh... the panelists we have on are kind of busy on sunday mornings for the most part so we record in advance so tom came in to record with me and uh... do the show we had a a third guest it was going to be with us and and couldn't so just tom and i And we had all sorts of technical problems. We had three or four false starts. As a result, it got us way out of schedule. Tom couldn't stay any longer to continue recording. But I had a few more things I wanted to say on the topic of the shack. And so I'm just going to share those thoughts with you for what they're worth and give you some food for thought. That's all. I'm not trying to necessarily persuade you to love or hate the shack, just trying to get you to think. That's a big part of what we try to do here on the Faith Debate Show. if you're not familiar with the book the book was massively successful it sold over twenty million i think it's up around twenty two million copies of the book of now sold the movie was reasonably successful doubt on dvd now i'm sure it's going to be a big holiday gift item in stocking stuffer this holiday season uh... in the story the main character is a guy named mac and his daughter is killed in a shack by a serial killer and it's horrible and he ends up going to the shack uh... to meet as it turns out at least according to the author of the book, or to understand as the reader and as the viewer of the movie, that he's going there to see God, the Trinity. God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit. And God the Father is known as Papa in the book and movie. God the Son is known as Jesus. Go figure that one out. And God the Holy Spirit is known as Saraiu in the book and the movie. Anyway, so a couple of things to think about. On page 160 of the book, God invites man to judge him. Well, that really troubles me. We're all too prone to judging God. We don't need to be invited by God, and I don't think this is something God would ever do. Read some narratives in Exodus, by the way, where God is essentially put on trial by the people, and he is vindicated. It's not appropriate, I don't think, for Christians to be thinking in terms of putting God on trial for man to judge him, and yet this is exactly what the shack on page 160 invites the readers to do. Now on page 226, the Papa character says that forgiveness does not excuse anything. Do you agree with that? Forgiveness does not excuse anything. My first reaction, I think, when I read that was, what? You're not excused? You're not free to go? Isn't that what excused means? I excuse you for your offense. You're free to go. I think that forgiveness does excuse it. Now, it doesn't give you an excuse for having done it. It's no excuse, but it excuses the offense. It looks past the offense. Maybe I'm being too literal in my semantics here. Mac says that he feels shame. Finally, late in the book, on page 158, says that he feels shame. Shame for having been judging. And he's asked, by what criteria do you base your judgments? Now, despite being a seminary-trained Christian, that's what we're told in the book, that Mac, the main character, went to seminary. Despite this, Mac doesn't seem to know the answer to the question of what criteria do you base your judgments. The answer, of course, would be, by the word of God. That's what any seminary-trained man or woman should know to say. But he doesn't say this. Instead, he stammers. He has no answer. He's then told that this is because there really is no criteria for judging. Because, quote, judging requires that you think yourself superior over the one you judge. Is this right? No, it is not right. Again, there are many positive aspects to the shack. There really are. The idea of God being relational and loving and caring and there for you in times of distress, good. But I don't want that to mask the fact that there's a lot of dangerous theology in the book and in the movie. Judging requires that you think yourself superior over the one you judge? No. Not if we have a biblical understanding. Now, sometimes one of the most misquoted verses in the Bible is, Judge not, lest ye be judged. Well, the point there is that you should judge by God's standard, by His word, and you should judge as a means of correction. You should call someone to repentance so they can live in fulfillment of what God has for their life, so they can flourish. Not because you think you're better than them. Judging in that way would be sinful and you shouldn't be do that, but that's not biblical judgment. That's not godly judgment. And that gets lost in translation in the shack. The shack says that God would have to be worse than a human parent to send anyone to hell. That's on page 162. I would invite you to comment on this if you're sitting here with me. And if Tom were still on the panel, I'd invite him to comment on this. God would have to be worse than a human parent to send anyone to hell? Let me add that Mack says that he understands the sacrificial love of the Son, but says that God has another story. What is your reaction? The Son is not God? He understands the sacrificial love of the Son, but that God is another story. So he doesn't understand the sacrificial love of God, but he understands the sacrificial love of the Son, but the Son is not God? There's some theological ambivalence here that is not helpful. Page 164 of the shack, here's a quote, it says, he chose the way of the cross, talking about Jesus, he chose the way of the cross where mercy triumphs over justice because of love. Mercy triumphs over justice. No, I'm sorry. I'm sorry, it's just not true. Justice is not defeated, it is fulfilled. Mercy doesn't triumph over justice, mercy and triumph go together. They triumph together. Christ goes to the cross. Yes, mercy triumphs there at the cross, but so does justice. God's justice is meted out on his son, on Jesus at the cross. Justice is not defeated there. Now, if you aren't going to church regularly, not reading your Bible regularly, haven't grown up with Christian theological understanding of things, this might be all fresh and new. But if you have done all of those things, hopefully this is not fresh and new. And I'm reminding you of things you already know. And if you read the shack and didn't notice it, maybe you're scratching your head saying, boy, maybe I should have noticed that when I read the shack. Five pages later on 169, the book says, judgment is not about destruction, but about setting things right. What would your reaction to this be? Judgment is not about destruction. Well, I guess taken a certain way, that would be okay. But God does destroy things. And things are set right via the destruction of evil. Judgment is not about destruction. Well, it is if you're talking about the destruction of evil, aren't you? Sodom and Gomorrah are destroyed, aren't they? The sin in the life of the new believer is destroyed and then increasingly, step by step, destroyed through sanctification, isn't it? Did you read the shack? Are you a Christian? Did you read the shack? What did you think? If you're not a Christian, did you read the shack? What did you think? Well, if you're not a Christian, you read the shack. I'm not talking specifically about your experience in reading the shack. but if you read the shack as a christian you should have some question marks popping up now you might come to different conclusions that i did but hopefully at least asked the question on page two or three of the shack sarah you that's the name given to the holy spirit character it's a good hindu name by the way sarah you says that humans like the law because it grants you the power to judge others and feels superior to them so should we judge not lest ye be judged says that humans like the law because it grants you the power to judge others and feel superior to them. Is that why we like the law? You know, I learned as a parent that children, they all crave boundaries. They want to know what are the rules? What am I allowed to do? What should I not do? How do I stay safe? And what would I do that would make me unsafe? How do I fall into favor of my parents? And how do I fall out of favor with my parents? We want to know the ground rules. And the law gives us the ground rules of how to live a good and proper and and and uh... positive life to enjoy life tuned into glorify god the creator a serious goes on to speak against quote responsibility and expectation well our responsibility and expectation bad things is it bad to be responsible is it bad to expect others to be responsible is it bad to have any expectations i expect the christ will return again that wrong I expect those that I love and care about to love and care about me. They might disappoint that expectation, but it is on occasion. But is it wrong for me to have that expectation? Would it be wrong for them to have that expectation of me? Well, according to Saria in the chat, perhaps. And she says, I have great fondness for uncertainty. Really? You know, I recently went through a sermon series on 1st, 2nd, and 3rd John. And the Apostle John, he's all about the certainty, the assurance of knowing that our faith is true and what we have we can be sure of. We have a hope that we're certain of. And yet here we have the Holy Spirit character in the shack saying that, quote, I have great fondness for uncertainty. And my reaction to that is, no! Exclamation point. No! I have a fondness for certainty, not uncertainty. Again, by the way, this is the Faith Debate. I'm Troy Skinner, and you're listening to 930 WFMD. We're online at wfmd.com. I'm focusing on a lot of the negative aspects of the shack because I want to make sure I touch on them. I don't want you to think there's only negative aspects of the shack. There are good things. So if you loved the movie, loved the book, that's fine. In fact, my wife read the book and watched the movie and she thought it was, you know, an interesting story and kind of took it for that and didn't really get bogged down in the theological questions. Now, when I point out the theological issues, she says, well, yeah, you're absolutely right, that's dangerous. Fortunately, from my perspective, my wife is a very mature uh... biblical christian and so she's able to navigate through these landmines without too much damage being done i'm concerned about somebody might be who maybe new to the faith or uh... exploring what christianity is all about if you haven't read the bible don't know christianity believes and teaches and you read the shack i think you understand what god's all about i'm sorry i think go talk to a real christian go to a real bible teaching church read the bible uh... and find out that way the shack is not going to be your answer For all its troubles, the shack does at least hint at repentance on page 175 with the use of the phrase, quote, what we desire is for you to return to us. That's one of the God characters saying that. Now, repentance is about turning. To repent is to turn from one thing and to turn towards another. So this desire for you to return to us is actually a good point in the shack. So there, see, I'm not all negative. Now, Mac, the main character in the book, he retrieves the body of his dead daughter. It's a very moving part of the story. There are several very emotionally stirring parts, and this is one of the attractions of the book. I mean, you can really relate with the pain of the character. Can you try to imagine what it might be like to lose a child at the age of six, and to lose a child in the way that this child is lost, and then to go recover the body? And he carries her body, the shack says, and this is on page 230. And it says, quote, he knew that the real Missy, that's his daughter's name. He knew that the real Missy wasn't there. Well, I think you can imagine that, okay, in a sense, there might be some truth in this, but there's a problem here. He knew that the real Missy wasn't there. There's a problem with this statement. What's the problem? Well, from a biblical standpoint, yes, she was there. We are not merely our bodies, but our bodies are really part of us. So the body is real. Our bodies are really us, just like our soul is really us. Our spirit is really us. So he wasn't carrying her entirety by carrying that body, but to say that she wasn't really there diminishes what it means to have a human body. And I think this is important because it speaks to how we care for our body, how we care for other people's bodies. How we regard the bodies of the dead? If they're just empty shells and don't mean anything, well then why should we carry about with any sort of pomp and circumstance, with any sort of respect toward a corpse, toward a deceased person? Why? If the body doesn't mean anything. And that would be an implication that we could draw from this sort of idea in the book. You don't really see it as much in, I don't think that statement is in the movie. It's something that's talked about only in the book. Now, on page 234, Mac is given a choice of going to heaven or staying on earth. And Mac chooses against heaven. And Sariu commends the choice, saying that everything he does on earth is important, and it's universe-altering, actually. Pretty profound circumstance here. What would be your choice? Would you choose to stay on earth, or would you choose to go to heaven, if you had that choice? I'm not talking about suicide here. I'm talking about if God were to call you home without suicide, were to call you home, would you want to go now or would you want to stay? I think we're all tempted to say we want to stay. I would want to stay, I think, because I would feel like I want to still be involved in the lives of my loved ones, my wife, my children, my extended family, my coworkers, my friends. But you know, there are important things to do in heaven too, aren't there? So it's not like I couldn't still be crying out on their behalf in heaven, trying to influence their lives for the positive from heaven by speaking out to God on their behalf, perhaps, you know, being one of the witnesses crying out in heaven. I just thought it was an interesting point. I'm not being critical of the shack here. I just think it's an interesting thing. It would be a great study group question. You could spend a whole hour with a group talking about that. You know, if you had the choice, God calls you home right now or you stay. What do you choose and why? Now, speaking about passing over to the other side, Mac, the main character, he sees his deceased daughter, Missy, on the other side during the movie and during the book. And in the book and in the movie, she already has her resurrected body. uh... you wanna find this part of the book most easily turn page one sixty seven i was interesting here she has a resurrected body before the second coming what do you understand about the resurrection my understanding uh... and i think it's a biblical understanding of course i would say that about my own understanding but my understanding about the resurrection is you get your resurrection body at the second coming now before And so the spirit, the soul lives on, but the resurrection body doesn't come until later. Now that's not a main point in the book, it's not a main point in the movie, but it could lead potentially to some confusion if we're not careful. Let's see, page 224. This is a quote. Son, you need to speak it, to name it. Smacks of name it, claim it theology to me. You know what that is? Do you know what name it, claim it theology is? This idea that our words in themselves have power. We can speak things into existence. You want a Mercedes-Benz? Speak it. God's going to give me a Mercedes-Benz. And if you have enough faith, and you name it, you lay claim to it, you will get it. Hate to burst your bubble if that's the theology you hold but I don't think that holds up under scrutiny when examining biblical teaching of things It's not quite that simple otherwise the Apostle Paul when he Named his struggle the thorn in his flesh, whatever that might have been three times He named it and claimed it and didn't get an answer. He wanted so can we is it as simple as saying name it claim it? mean jesus in the garden before his crucifixion he says to god if you can remove this cup for me not my will your will be done so you can name a claim to put the back up with that well that's what we should do dot i'd like to give me a new mercedes but your will be done seems to be a more biblical approach uh... mac forgives his killer in the book which is good very good in a movie to picture twenty seven is where this happens But then he says, so is it all right if I'm still angry? And Papa responds, absolutely. And I wonder, should we agree with that? When we forgive someone, should we still be angry? It's a tough one on some, until we put ourselves, we're supposed to become more and more like Christ as believers in Christ. We should be modeling ourselves after who God is. We should try to reflect the character of God. The Bible teaches that men and women are created in God's image. So we are called to reflect that image. So here's a different way of posing that question. When God forgives us, is he still angry with us? I would say no. and so if god is not angry when he forgives is it okay for us to be angry when we forget to still hang on to our anger after we forget i think the answer to that is no and yet the shack as the god character say absolutely it is okay it's a weakness in the shack well got a couple of minutes left i just wanna some some main big issue points the shack does well on highlighting the relational aspect of god that god does care that god is active in involved in his creation that is absolutely a positive in the book it doesn't go far enough though to accentuate the power of god the holiness the righteousness the justice of god god is not merely a god of of relationship that's positive and loving and squishy, there's an aspect of that that's true. But he's also Lord King. He is a warrior God. And that is completely absent from the movie and from the book, The Shacks. We get this one-dimensional, this kind of sissified version of God, if you will. And those aspects of God are true, but they're not sufficient in and of themselves. He's more complex than that, as we all are. You are, you're more complex than that. are in some ways you might be a pushover sometimes very always nearly a pushover no sometimes you'll take a stand well god takes a stand for what is right and that seems to be missing in the shack and that makes me nervous anyway that'll conclude our three-part series on uh... the shack i was happen to get absent a guest this time i'm sorry about that so you got a lot of me I did preach recently on this, and I might break those sermons up into a handful of shows, and you can hear a fuller, deeper treatment of the Shack as it relates to the gospel message and what the Bible has to say about these things. That might be helpful. Got some shows lined up over the next... Handful of months I think so maybe it would be after the turn of the year before we get to that but I'll try to make it I'll make a note to myself to try to do that and Hopefully you'll enjoy that. Hopefully you've enjoyed this and I hope we've enjoyed this show. We are now 13 years in the book. We started this show almost exactly almost exactly to the week now thirteen years ago uh... thirteen-year anniversary is i'd like to stay as a way so thank you so much for your uh... your support in us doing the show originally at six o'clock in the morning and then at eight thirty and now more recently at nine thank you for hanging in there thanks to our sponsors over the years including those who currently have high-low auto sales and tire pros of frederick I want to thank my longtime partners on this show over the years, Jonathan Schweitzer from Crossroads Valley Church, and more recently, Jace Broadhurst from Poolsville Baptist Church. Good friends, good men of God, and I thank them for their role in my life. It's like an acceptance speech, isn't it, at the Academy Awards? Anyway, thank you so much for listening. It's mostly you that I thank, and God, of course. Until next week, 167 and a half hours from now, God bless.