this is the credit rate debate on frederick's news radio nine thirty w f m d online at w f m e dot com keyword faith our host host me first dinner our sponsors would have meant to say the punch truck early morning punch truck uh... are high-low auto sales and tire pros of frederick and on again this week is tom while the pastor with church of god and last week we began a discussion on the book and movie the shack and if you want to get the detail of kind of what the narrative of the movies in this and storyline is of the book and other things Listen to the podcast from last week, you're not going to waste a lot of time going through that again. Suffice it to say that there's a little girl who gets killed, and the guy goes out into the shack where she was killed and meets with what is purported to be the Godhead. The father, who is known as Papa in the story, the son, who is known as Jesus, go figure that one out, in the story, and the Holy Spirit, who is known as Sarayu in the story. We've been talking about the good and the bad in the book, and Tom's made it easy for me to not have to spend a lot of my time talking about the good aspects of the book, because he's been a generous reader and generous viewer of the movie, so he's highlighting and accentuating most of the positives, which is good, I'm glad. And I agree with all of those positives, and I've been pointing out some of the reasons to have concern, and I only hit upon a few of them. I have dozens, but hit upon a few of them. Last week we hit on a few more, maybe this week. So for example, page 179 of the book, the Jesus character, by the way, hello, Tom. Good to have you back. I'm raring to go, jumping right back in. The Jesus character says, an awful lot of what is done in my name has nothing to do with me and is often, even if unintentional, very contrary to my purposes. Let's talk about this. Wow. Okay. I would agree, right? I would agree. This is true. You agree with it? I agree with this. Of course. A lot of stuff that is said and done in Jesus' name has nothing to do with Jesus. Westboro Baptist Church comes to mind, for example. Oh my goodness. I do not like those guys. I know we're supposed to love everybody, and I guess I can love them, but I don't have to like them. The irony to me, though, is I think that the author of The Shack, Paul Young, and makers of the movie The Shack, they're intending to do something for Christ, kind of almost in Christ's name, this idea. They're trying to advance the idea of who god is advance the gospel one would say if they're christians and i think that they missed the mark in some significant ways repeatedly a particularly in the book the movies not quite as egregious because you have to really be looking for things in the movie the book you don't be looking for a smack upside the head and because it's it's the the nature of the media that you need him to choosing uh... but i think that it's true that was done in jesus name isn't always good and i think sadly it might be true of the book in the movie. Well, let's talk about some of them. So, let's see. This is Jesus again. This is a quote of the Jesus character. Like I said, I don't create institutions. That's an occupation for those who want to play God. What's your reaction? Jesus says, I don't create institutions. You know, sadly, a lot of our churches today go down that road. And that's a bit unfortunate. But Jesus isn't about buildings. Jesus is about people. And his relationship with people is what this movie is about. A relationship with God. A personal, loving relationship with God to show us that God is always there. In fact, it kind of reminds me of that footprint. You know, you see the footprints in the sand, and the guy's like, well, you know, where were you? Well, those are my footprints. I was carrying you. And the movie hits along the same lines. Yeah, but again, maybe I'm splitting way too many hairs. I don't know. However, I don't think I am, but I want to at least hold open the possibility and examine my own thinking on this. I think the church is an institution, and God has founded that. I think marriage is an institution, and God has founded that. I think government is an institution, and God has founded that. I think family is an institution, and God has founded that. So for him to say, I didn't create institutions, that's an occupation for those who want to play God. Well, wait a minute. If God hasn't created institutions, then how is creating institutions playing God? So they have a logical non sequitur there. It's like saying, I don't place people under arrest, that's something for people pretending to be police officers to do. But police officers do place people under arrest. I don't throw baseballs, that's for something for people pretending to be pitchers in baseball to do. But that's what pitchers actually do. So either God does create institutions, which makes the first part of what the Jesus character says here wrong, or God Well, maybe that character was talking in limited terms. Not meaning every institution, but just certain institutions. Certainly not government. The people do that. The people come up with these ideas. And do some of them play God? Well, I'm not going to name names, but some certainly try. well i don't know i i think that uh... you know the new testament of which a pray for leaders yes you know that the power the sort of been given to the government yes you know uh... the nation of israel certainly was founded by god yes you know so i don't know i mean i can i don't make cakes that's something for people pretending to be bakers you know well if it uh... polyester and have both ways of the logical problem there anyway This is related to this. The Papa character in the book says, nothing is ritual. It says it twice, by the way. It says it on page 207 and page 220. Nothing is ritual. I don't know. Can you think of any biblical rituals? Well, sure. Lord's Supper? Yeah. Well, not according to the shack because nothing is ritual according to the shack. The book's not perfect. And thank goodness we recognize that. The movie is not quite as definitive as the book. It leaves a lot of that stuff out. Well, we just agreed that the Lord's Supper would be a ritual. Absolutely. One among several that we could probably identify now. Well, on page 236, the shack says, this is a quote, without any ritual, without any ceremony, They savored the warm bread and shared the wine. So according to the Shack, the Lord's Supper is not a ritual. Ritual and ceremony are apparently bad things in the author's view. So what did he call the Last Supper? It's just people getting together, sharing life. Having a meal, sharing life together. And it's more than that. It's an instituted ritual. Well, who made it the instituted ritual? Well, Jesus did. Yes. He said to do this in remembrance of me. Exactly. But when he did, when they had that first Last Supper, then that was the first time it happened. That was about family together. And that first Last Supper was a Passover meal. Yes. Which was another ritual. Yes. You know? Anyway, Mac in the book says that he likes Jesus. I like that he likes Jesus. Yeah. But he doesn't like Papa. And Papa, in defense of himself, herself, because Papa's presented as a woman through a majority of the book and the movie, Papa blames, quote, religious folk for creating a stern God, who's the father, and a comforting God, who is Jesus. So you have this father figure who's stern, the idea being this Old Testament God is stern, and the New Testament God, Jesus, is comforting. But you know, what would you say to somebody who says that there's these two different gods? There's an Old Testament God and a New Testament God. Well, I have to show them where God in the Old Testament is loving and kind and caring. I mean, it wasn't Moses that brought him out of captivity. It was God. Right. That's a classic straw man argument that Paul is postulating in his book there. We've talked a lot about, last week and this week, about what Papa says, what the Jesus character in the book says. Saraiu, the Holy Spirit, says, and if you're playing at home, page 235, Saraiu says, if anything matters, then everything matters. Now, this phrase is repeated about 13 pages later, I think, on page 248, which is the final page of the story. If anything matters, then everything matters. Now, to me, it sounds like a bumper sticker. How do you respond? I like bumper stickers. And everything does matter because it all falls into one end or the other of relationships. Does everything matter? When you see somebody being hurt on the streets, you see the protests that have been going on We see him every night on TV, it seems. Does that matter? Of course it does. Sure. Absolutely. So I agree. And then when you see the part about Houston with all the flooding they had, did you see any protests? Did you see any war? Did you see any battles going on? No! You had people from all over the country coming together to help those people. So, does that matter? Yes. Now, the question then becomes, I agree with you, but the question becomes, in what way does it matter? And so how is the Shaq trying to make the point of how it matters, what matters, and in what way do things matter? And here's an insight into that. A light bulb really goes on for the Mac here, the main character of the book. A light bulb goes on. He finally understands, according to the Shaq, that, quote, everything was about him, Mac. Everything's about the human race. now my problem with that and i'm not sure how familiar you listening to show our with max lakato max lakato is a very popular successful author in his own right and he sold millions of copies of books himself he's a pastor in texas speaking of flood ariel he more than dallas area waco area mature he was affected by the flood or not but anyway i don't think so anyway max lakato is sometimes in my opinion unfairly dismissed as being a uh... i'm not very deep theologian I don't think that's fair, but sometimes the broad brush with which he's a wonderful storyteller. But even if you wanted to say that he's not a very deep theologian, even the title of one of Max's books does a better job than Paul Young does on this kind of a point. The book that I have in mind from Max Licato is It's Not About Me. That's the title of a Max Licato book. It's Not About Me. And he's right. Max says, he finally gets it, the light bulb goes, everything's about me. And I would say, no, it's not. Well, you know, again, I'm going to look at the bright side of this. And I think when everything about Mac, I think the lesson there was all of Mac's preconceived judgments. That's what it was about. Mac judged everything himself and when they put him in the position to judge and the two people he was judging was his son and his older daughter. All of a sudden Mac didn't want to be all about me because he didn't want to have to judge which one of those two were going to go to hell. And that's where Mack learned the lesson. It wasn't about him. It was all about Jesus. one of the good points i'm gonna does put on my white hat here for a minute one of the good points about the book is and the movie it goes on its way to have a a a a multi-ethnic uh... identity you know for god's on the god is the god of all people so you have a papa is i mentioned uh... little while ago is is a is a woman throughout most of the story of of of black woman uh... african-american i suppose but uh... only blacks in america are african-american so blacks uh... internationally represented by papa in the book uh... jesus is uh... looks like a middle easterner uh... sarah you looks like an asian and then wisdom is portrayed uh... in the book looking at it and then in the movie to i think uh... looking hispanic and course mac the main character in the book is a caucasian guy she kinda have all of the and then uh... papa uh... is a male later in the story and is native american uh... in in ethnicity and see if i got the the scope of of uh... of of the of the human uh... identity wrapped up i think it does a good job there anyway wisdom says in the book so many believe that it is love that grows but it is the knowing that grows in the love simply expands to contain it love is just the skin of knowing that's awesome who i don't know you know that love grows knowledge, as you gain knowledge, the more you know, let me give you a good example, and by the way that white hat does look good on you, the more you know about Jesus, the more you gonna love him yeah but to say that love is just the skin of knowing to me it sounds like narcissism which really is a problem in my mind and i'm i'm i'm reminded of a first corinthians thirteen eight talking about the things will pass away knowledge will pass away love remains. So if love is just the skin of knowing, but knowledge goes away, then what do you got? You got this deflated little skin just like a shriveled up prune somewhere? No, no, the skin is what holds everything together. But all that stuff that's held together goes away. It's love that remains. Yes. Right? Yes, I agree with that. But love I know you're trying hard to be positive on the book and I appreciate that so much. Makes my job easier. Yeah, well I don't want to make it easier. I enjoy some of the challenges you're throwing out here. But I believe that reason love remains because God is love. Now, he's Tom Weil, he's a pastor with the Church of God. I'm Troy Skinner, this is the Faith Debate on WFMD, and I'm gonna challenge you to maybe, you might wanna take your white hat off on this one and put your black hat on. We'll see, maybe not. On page 172 of the shack. Mac dreams, Mac's, it's said to us as the reader that Mac's dreams and imagination are more real than God's word in the Bible and more real than the illumination of the Holy Spirit and more real than the historical physical universe. So what would you say to Mac if he were your friend sitting in this room doing this show with us and he were to say, you know what, I had a vision and a dream, and I have kind of an active imagination, and all of that is more real to me than God's word, than history, than... Isn't it possible that Satan is giving you that dream to take you or actually try to keep you in that mood you're in that you don't like God because you think it was God's fault that your little girl died? I would look at it that way. I would look at it that way. Once Mac realizes, and he does later on, once he realizes that God has not abandoned him, then he throws that dream away. But now what if Mac were to respond and say, okay, that all sounds good intellectually, however, I disagree with you because I don't think that this earthly existence is real. It's the unreal world. Only the heavenly is the real world, because that's a point made in the book, by the way, on page 237. You've got all the pages marked. I'm telling you, every... there's... that's not true. Probably 80% of the pages of my copy of the shack have writing on them. Well, that's good. You won't sell that book to anybody, but that means that's good. I think it's not only heaven that's real. I mean, heaven is real, but it's not only heaven that's real, right? Absolutely. So that's a problem. it's a good problem to me any of these little things i'm pointing out by themselves not a huge issue but i thought that there are so many and they're so recurring really gives me angst about well let's break you know let's break it down let's take it one at a time uh... i certainly don't want you to you know go home and not be able to get to sleep tonight and and be thinking about this all night long uh... break it down and and and look at it piece by piece by piece because eventually even matt gets it So I know you're going to get it. You think? I hope so. Well, I don't know. We'll see. Because on the second to last page of the shack, it said, you know, perhaps some of it's not actually true in one sense. This is Mac getting it, I guess. Perhaps some of the story that we've just read, some of it maybe is not actually true in one sense. It is still true nonetheless, if you know what I mean, it says. This sort of a statement, and I'll get your take on it, I had to ask myself, why is this sort of a statement included in the shack? And part of me thinks it's a cop-out statement. It's a CYA. It's a, you can make this book mean whatever you want. Now, I've made some wild, as the author of the shack, I've made some wild theological claims, but if you want to think it means something else, then you can let me off the hook. you can make this book mean what you want to me i feel like it's a he makes big bold proclamations on who god is and then says yeah but maybe it's not really true you know you won't let him off the hook me i'm gonna send a fruit basket and thank them because i think the book is terrific i think it brings out a lot of good points it uh... it certainly takes a man from thoughts about suicide. It showed that in one point, to an enlightenment where his family is back together and united and... Well, here we have time maybe I think for one more thought. And I'm sorry, we're kind of hodgepodge and jumping all over the place, but I mean, there's so much in this book and there's no easy way to organize this. Trust me, having done a Sunday school class and a couple of sermons on this, trying to organize all of this is a real challenge. So, in the shack, the main character, Mac, is told by one of the God characters, quote, you are a glorious, destructive mess, Mackenzie, but you are not here to repent. What would you say to a statement like that? That's profound. I really believe that when Papa is telling Mac, you're not here to repent, he's not. he's looking for answers he's very mad at god blaming god for everything in the beginning and Once his relationship starts to build with God, he becomes more clear in his own mind about whose fault this really was. And it wasn't God's fault, and it wasn't his fault. But the true relationship with God begins with the repentance. Of course it does. Of course it does. But this part, they're not talking about that. He already, he had a relationship with God. He felt that that was abandoned. He felt God abandon him, and that's not so, because we all know God doesn't abandon us. He's the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. He had to find out, and I think in the end, he did. Okay, like I said several times, the fact that you have a generous spirit about this is really important. And by me pointing out the negatives, that's kind of my role in this dialogue. I don't want to give the impression that there isn't anything good in the shack and that we should try to look for every wrong thing in what we're reading. We should be generous readers and generous hearers and give the benefit of the doubt. The reason I started to have concerns with the shack is I was giving him, the author, William Paul Young, was giving him the benefit of the doubt on page one. and then kind of being forced to give them the benefit of the doubt on page two. And after like 75 pages of Benefit of the Doubt, I said, okay, maybe I need to not give the Benefit of the Doubt quite so much, because it's like every page after page after page. Maybe I need to start to look and see, okay, maybe he's not deserving benefit. Maybe he's saying what I'm afraid he's saying, but don't want to go there. And by the end of the book, I was pretty persuaded that he is saying what he is saying, which is a pretty universalist salvation message, which is a pretty... God is warm and squishy, love and fuzzy, and not a God of righteousness and justice and wrath, and there really is no hell for anybody, and those sorts of things. And if that's what you're left with after reading the book, I think you have a horribly one-sided view, a non-scriptural view of the Bible, and that could lead you astray. You're absolutely right. I agree with what you're saying there, but not being as critical on the prose of this book, I don't believe you're left with that message. I wasn't. I wasn't. And you know what? In fairness, my wife would agree with you. She read the book and wasn't left with that impression either. Well, see, I know Dean is very smart. Well, agreeing with you isn't proof of that. He's Tom Weil, pastor with Church of God. I'm Troy Skinner. This is the Faith Debate online at WFMD.com. Keyword faith. Our sponsor, Hilo Auto Sales and Tire Pros of Frederick. Thanks for listening. Until next week, God bless.