Well, our topic this morning is conversations over political differences. And our summer series has been a variety of topics at Countryside Bible Church. And so today, I'm just going to cut to the chase. This is where we're going today. If we're going to have conversations, there needs to be a lot more listening and a lot less talking. Conversations are defined by both, right? And the Bible tells us, let everyone be quick to hear, slow to speak, and slow to anger. And so we need to talk about, we're going to talk about listening and what that looks like and what that means. And I've been intrigued by this since the beginning of the year, since the beginning of the summer. And so we're going to talk about that. I have some counsel that it's on my heart. It's been on my heart for a while. Counsel against all or nothingness. I feel like there's a lot of all or nothingness when it comes to this kind of topic. And if you're a black and white thinker or have a perfectionistic tendency and tend to be critical, you probably shade off into all or nothingness pretty easily. And so I want us to be able to break some of those categories and realize there's a lot more complexity at times to this than just all or nothing. And so I have three areas I'd like us to do that. And we get to the end, I'm hoping that you and I will be better consultants. Most of us in our conscience feel constrained to feel like, okay, I need to be a clarion call, you know, for truth. And so I need, I'm going to be sheepish and cowardly if I don't speak up. And so here I go. And we launch off, you know. And it's not always done in the spirit of power and love and sound mind. that the Bible says a nice combination of I love you, but I'm also in self-control, there's a power, but I'm also thinking well. You know, a nice combination of that. We tend to be reactive and we tend to also, as I heard Pastor Rob say, or Pastor Rob, Pastor Aaron say in one of our sessions, we tend to be talking more out of our own selfish concern. Like I'll feel bad if I leave this conversation and I didn't say this. But was it really what was required for the glory of God and for the good of my neighbor? Can I trust him? Can I walk with him? Can I be sensitive to his spirit's leading on this? I would love to have all of you at the end of this be a little more, a step or two closer to the idea of being able to be a consultant. I'm thinking about an issue. I've been really wrestling with this. I got some difficulty, you know, whatever, and can I talk with you about it? Sure, come on over. And as soon as the person starts talking, and about two, three minutes into it, you launch. And then they're done. They were ready to start opening their heart up, but you figured out what needs to be said here. I thought through this. I know this issue. Bam! Rather than a sense of which I can come to you and think out loud. I can come to you and share my doubts, my anger, my concerns, my fears. And I know you'll listen well, you'll take my perspective and see where it goes, but you're also going to be honest with me and not hold back whatever is profitable. You can tell me I disagree with you, but if I was you and I was thinking this way, this is what I would be thinking or concluding. I think it takes a lot of security, a lot of self, I call it security, but a lot of feeling safe within yourself to be able to have that kind of conversation. I think the gospel enables us to have that poise and stability because our identity is safe in Christ. We do not have to prove ourselves. If you came to the cross, you already admitted you're a failure. That's already a foregone conclusion. There's no salvaging that reputation anymore. You are a failure. That is every Christian. So there's nothing to prove at this point. It's just your Savior's identity, your Savior's name that you want promoted ultimately, as well as the good of your neighbor. And also the other thing is that your possessions are actually safe. Don't fear those who can kill the body, but fear him who can destroy soul and body in hell. What you actually own is eternally safe. And someday you're going to either be taken from your possessions or your possessions are going to be taken from you. So if you live with a strong sense of, I need to protect my identity, I need to protect my possessions, and that's what drives me down deep and agitates me when I sense this or that's going on outside, you're going to have trouble with this issue. You're going to have trouble maintaining peace You're going to have trouble seeking what is truly good. You're going to be self-interested. And it's going to be difficult. And that's just the nature of it for all of us. So I'm looking, as I said, clarifying, I'm looking for conversation this morning as our target. Looking at that, what does conversation look like? So you have your handout? Everybody's got a handout? Couple of reminders up front about the gospel. Number one, our gospel is actually political. Governments often sense the threat, okay? Wasn't Jesus crucified? He claims to be a king. Are you a friend of Caesar? How can you let a political rival survive? So Jesus was framed on political charges in part, right? Christianity has often been seen to be by governments as a political threat. But Jesus preached a message of a kingdom. Kingdom is a political thing. It's not a nation, an ethnos, a people. It's a political thing that has a king. He is lord of lords. He is king of king. Part of our message is actually political. The difference is that our kingdom isn't here yet. Our kingdom is still coming. And our kingdom is in a realm that is bigger than the current realm. And so our kingdom is not of this world. Jesus said, my kingdom is not of this world to a Roman governor. He told the Roman ruler, that's my kingdom. It's different than this kingdom. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would be out fighting right now. And there's a lot of Jews that would have been willing to fight, okay? So that's, my servants would be out fighting around, but my kingdom is not of that nature. We know from the Ephesians, God, the Ephesians, Book of Ephesians that we just heard preached, we know that we do not fight against flesh and blood, but against principalities, powers, rulers, spiritual darkness. They wage war against our soul. And they use political things to accomplish their purposes. The book of Daniel is clear on that. The book of Revelation is clear on that. And so, manifestations of demonic forces and the evil is often kind of, you know, petrified in political entities. And we see them at work in those. But we cannot face them in the same way with the same attitude. And Christians have acted differently for centuries. So, that's up front. Listen to the, Here's the Apostle Paul speaking to a pastor, so the rest of you can listen in, you can eavesdrop. The Lord's bondservant, the Lord's slave, must not be quarrelsome, must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, and this is under pressure, able to teach, still able to instruct when under pressure, on the hot seat, and when there's threats or anger. able to teach, patient when wronged, with gentleness, and I don't like the translation gentleness, neither does meekness give the idea. The idea here in the Greek, proetes, I think it is, but the idea is there's such a self-forgetfulness, I am aiming on doing what is right no matter what happens to me. It leads to incredible boldness if you're in leadership. This meekness is what Paul used in 2 Corinthians 10 when he said, I speak with the meekness of Jesus Christ, and then he launches into the harshest things he ever tells a church. Because if you care about your own self-interest, you will hold back speaking what needs to be spoken. So in leadership, meekness is often seen as great boldness. Turn it around, when you're under leadership, meekness is often seen as great willingness to suffer. I'll do what is right, no matter how I suffer for it. Even if I lose my possessions, my liberty, and my life, I'm still gonna do what's right. In that sense, it looks more like what we call gentleness, but again, it's a self forgetfulness. It's an awesome attribute of the Holy Spirit. It's a fruit of the Holy Spirit. Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. And so with gentleness, with meekness, that self-forgetfulness then correcting those who are in opposition. So I'm to go in it with the kindness in my heart, ability to teach, I'm being patient even though you're insulting me and wronging me as a pastor, able to forget about myself in this situation, speak what is right, correct you, if perhaps God may grant repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and note the enemy that is at lurk, and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will. Because I'm dealing with a spiritual enemy, that has enslaved and ensnared this sinner. I cannot go at them with the same attitude and the same manner as I would in just dealing business or different things. The only way this sinner will be freed is by the power of God giving a gift of repentance, a change of mind and heart. Therefore, I approach it with a very, very different attitude and demeanor. And I'm very persistent in the sense of I'm patient. If we need to talk again, or again, or again, or again, I'm okay with that. We can keep talking. We can keep... You follow me? Okay. This is a preface. Anybody have a question on this part? Yeah, David. So in my experience, one of the first problems with local conversations is, or conversations that are often even local conversations is, in modern society, all of us, but specifically people like certain political events, are always seeking affirmation of their beliefs. And something I've talked with a political brah about is how do you do conscience without provoking or too early trying to establish yourself against their views. Okay, so they're almost sense feels like baiting you like okay okay okay I'm gonna try to see if it gets addressed in the material and if not then we'll open it up and see what ideas the Lord is stirring here, okay? So we'll, so, okay. That was a preface on the gospel. This is, the second part is a preface on how religion and politics often go together. And so Mark Dever of Capitol Hill Baptist Church recommended this book at a Together for the Gospel conference several years ago. A Lutheran, actually in the liberal Lutheran side of things, but Robert Benny, Good and Bad Ways to Think About Religion and Politics. And it's a very interesting book and I'd recommend it, as Mark Dever did. It's summarized here. I give you on your sheet basically the outline. So here's how people have often thought how religion and politics go together, at least in our day. Number one, there's the two extremes. There's the separationist and the fusionist. The separationists keep religion and politics from touching each other. They keep them separate. So they come in two forms. Number one, those who want to keep politics free from dangerous religious stuff. Those often on the very liberal side of things. No place in the public sphere for religion. Keep it to yourself. If it works for you, great. Okay, you all recognize that one. The other one is keeping religion free from dangerous politics. Church is no place to talk about politics. Church is for church, not for anything political. And these are extreme cases that are very easily, we see this a lot. At Countryside, we try not to fall into either category on this, on the separationist side. I like what Robert Benne said, he said, the problem with this is it truncates religion and it impoverishes politics. Religion, based on the gospel being religious and Jesus being Lord of Lords and ruler of the kings of the earth right now, according to Revelation 1.5, he struck down Herod Agrippa for claiming to be a god when the audience applauded him in Acts 12. An angel from the Lord struck him down. And then, and he died, and he had worms and died. I think it was the order was worms first and then he died. You know, so it's like it was a horrible death. But because he refused to give glory to God, God struck down a ruler in the book of Acts. We have many conversations between a preacher, a missionary, and rulers in the book of Acts. Not only when they're on trial, And so sometimes they respond favorably, as at the island of Cyprus, sometimes indifferently, as in the city of Corinth, and sometimes hostilely. And so religion and politics overlap. We can't keep them separate. Discerning how they fit together is the thrust of that book, which he calls critical engagement. Moving from core to public policy, core meaning core beliefs. He describes it as moving from theological essentials, which you regard as essential about God, man, salvation, sin, moving from essentials then to principles that apply in politics that can be used to think through things, to then ultimately conditioning factors that if you look at any given specific situation, you need to take in mitigating factors. There's not one size fits all. And all this is in the realm of counseling. I hope you can recognize this is like counseling. Just because you know the truth, doesn't mean that you know exactly how it fits in this situation. Which is why conversation is needed, which is why listening is needed. The principles that he listed in the book, a couple that would be politically relevant, are both realistic rather than idealistic. Humans are exalted but are fallen. So they're not a nothing, they're not just a sin machine. There is common grace and there is good that comes out of bad people. But they're also not just, good by nature, they will do a lot of evil things. We cannot just assume the best of certain political regimes. If we could just talk to them, they comply and be reasonable. Kind of like Prime Minister Chamberlain coming back in 1938 from Munich. Winston Churchill was right, you can't reason with Hitler. The qualitative distinction between God's salvation and all human efforts, I love that one. What God does is what God does. What humans do is what humans do. That doesn't make a human thing nothing, but it doesn't make it a divine thing. We're not looking for utopias. Any utopia man-made paradise isn't going to happen. Man can't do that. But man can do something. It's not all or nothing. So we want something. And then the last is Christian service, which is big for the bottom paragraph. He talks about the dangers and the things, he's in a liberal denomination that loves to make prophetic utterances, okay? This is what a lot of liberal denominations, they get really political, and they love to talk about, and usually they're on the liberal, social, action side of things. Basically, they end up tying their wagon to a lot of social action agendas, and so he doesn't like it. Some people say the Church should be the conscience of society. Some say that the Church should have power. He disagrees with these things because of the idea of Christian service and Christian vocation. This is good for somebody like David and others who are called to this to think. You too, Adelaide. Called, and you too. I got several of them. Called to think through these things and engage on a higher level. Listen to these paragraphs in the bottom. He basically cuts to the chase and says, our argument is that all churches and their leaders ought to be far more circumspect in their efforts to affect the political realm through direct influence. The indirect influence is nurture your people and your people will go out and affect the culture and society and different things. It's indirect, right? Equip them for the work of the service, building up of the saints and other things. So equip them for good works that God has prepared. But that's your job, church. So directly, the church directly stepping into politics, he warns and says that's not our calling, and that's not the church's calling. He says there's certainly an obligation to carry on a prophetic ministry when that's strongly called for. A John the Baptist that says it's not lawful for you to have your brother's wife. There's a time when the church needs, as a church, to speak up. But those cases are far fewer than is assumed by those churches that often engage in so-called prophetic ministry. We have also suggested ways to be prophetic that do not assume that churches and their leaders have special competence in the realm of public policy. I am not a lawyer. I'm a pastor. I have a brother who's a lawyer. And he has a master's in public policy. And he has helped me a bunch in getting a class together for Spring Branch Academy on some of these matters. But I'm not trained in that. I'm not qualified in that. That's my area of competence. The Church should not assume that either the Church or the leaders have special competence in the realm of public policy, thus usurping the role of the Christian laity in that calling. where God has called, he adds a quote from C.S. Lewis that basically, we're not looking for, I forget the vocations Lewis chooses, but novels and plays are not gonna come from Christian pastors. We want Christian playwrights and novelists to write those books. That's their calling. You follow me? Why would we not then also expect Christian politicians to do their work? You follow me? Let's train, let's nurture, let's encourage them to do their work. But that's not our primary calling. He says, one could argue that the history of the West is one long lesson about the inadvisability of the church getting too directly involved in political power. That's Christendom. It's a long tale and we're not gonna get into it today. Secular authorities and agencies are the appropriate wielders of power in society. Do we really believe that they are God's servant? If we really believe they're God's servant, we recognize God has empowered them to do a job. That's their calling, to do a job in society. Praise the Lord, Christians are often called to that. And when Cornelius, the first Gentile convert, became a Christian, Jesus didn't tell him, stop being a Roman centurion. I find that fascinating. To be a Christian soldier in a pagan army. Oh, okay, be a good Christian soldier in a pagan army. You know, there's callings that Peter wasn't called to that, Paul wasn't called to that, Cornelius was called to that. So we have politicians who are called to these things. Those are rulers and others who serve. Churches are quintessentially themselves when they rely on the power of the word and on their example, not on worldly might. So my conclusion from the book after considering it was two if and one then statement at the bottom of the page. If it is true, Oh, I skipped the fusionists, didn't I? I better go back to the fusionists. The fusionists, number one, one category of fusionists is they use politics, they use religion in politics. That really bugs me. Really, really, really bugs me. Part of the American founders, it was part of it and not part of it. It would depend on who's handling it and what's going on. But if your biggest concern is why the nation should be more religious in order to be more politically prosperous, if that's your only concern for religion, you need to reconsider your religion. Jesus is bigger than politics. He's not the servant of society. Jesus didn't come to make society better or politics stronger. So politically using religion is a fusionist. Religious and ethnic or national identity are fused. Oh, so you're a southerner, you must be a Baptist. People on, okay, I chucked my head on that one, okay. You know, but it used to be, it was nationally tied, right? Very nationally tied. So you're this ethnic group, you must be this religion. People who think this way, and Islam is filled with this more and more in various ways. If you think that way, that's a fusionist category. Christians don't think this way. Christians are very multicultural and pluralistic. Not relativistic, but pluralistic. We have all sorts of ethnic groups in Christianity. It's very elastic, which is intentional. The third one is the one that we find sometimes in our church. Oh, if you're a Christian, then you must think this way about this public policy, or you must belong to this political party. Or you must have voted for this political candidate. Or you must of this, or you must of that. That doesn't take in a variety of factors that people have in their lives, in their background. I remember kind of being eyes open to realizing the African American community tends to vote Democratic, whether they're Christian or not Christian, because of the Civil Rights Movement in the 1960s. My grandparents voted Democratic because of the 1930s and the New Deal and what they thought was a benefit that they received. And I don't agree with that philosophy, but they did, and they voted that way. All four of their daughters married Republicans. It was a really interesting household, but it's like, you know, it's just, but to have a straight line thinking and then to find somebody and go, wait a minute, You're a Christian and you think this should be the public policy. Conversation at that point. This is where conversation comes in. Because there's obviously something there that's missing. Now maybe their Christianity is faulty. Maybe their knowledge of society is faulty. Maybe your straight line thinking is faulty. Like you've just assumed. If leads to that. Boom, a one-to-one correspondence. If this, then that. And the two are locked in step. Maybe. So, do you realize God put policy in the book of Deuteronomy, his inspired constitution? He put in it divorce. God, Jesus said, it was not that way from the beginning. It is contrary to the moral law. In fact, Malachi says, I hate divorce. God says, I hate divorce. But he put it in there because of the hardness of their hearts. Politics, and it's not easy to admit, but church politics works the same way. If you all are convinced a certain way is the way to go, If I'm gonna be your pastor, some adjustments are made. If I'm a father, and all my children insist a certain way, and my wife, some adjustments are gonna be made. Now that doesn't mean I shut my mouth, but there was a time when Samuel was told, listen to the voice of the people. They want a king, give them a king, but warn them what a king brings. They want divorce, give them a divorce, but regulate it. Make sure the woman's reputation is protected with a certificate. Regulate it. It is not easy to admit there are some things in our society that because the mass of people want it and our culture is that degenerate, we now are left with regulating it. The seventh commandment is the biggest example. Thou shall not commit adultery went long out the window. in our society. Can you imagine suits over love affairs, what we call love affairs, having a lawsuit over that? In the middle of the 1800s, by the way, you had to go to your state legislature to get a divorce. It was that public, and the representatives of the people voted whether you would get your divorce or not. That's how different our society is from what it used to be. It's not because government's different, necessarily. It's because the people are different in America. Okay. If those things are true, if number one, that political engagement is mainly on the level of the laity, you guys, and not on the level of pastors and churches as a whole, number one. And number two, if there is not a one-to-one correspondence between a belief and a political policy or party, Then, we should not be surprised if within our church are gonna be some differences. Some voted for Trump and some didn't vote for Trump. That doesn't mean they voted for Hillary or for Biden. Maybe they didn't even vote. You say they threw it away. Would they even feel comfortable to tell you that? It's that kind of, in the church, there are differences of opinion within our church over politics. And we should expect it, because it's complex. It is not a simple one-to-one correspondence between this and this. There are factors. There are principles. There's a lot of different things. And so I'm going to urge you, as one of your pastors, I want to urge you, I want to urge me, let's allow for some liberty of conscience on this, so that we can have Redemptive conversations over political differences. But if we do not see that there could be conscientious differences among us on political things, we will never have conversations. Hope you can see that. Let's urge, like Romans 14, over the differences over lifestyle, our habits, our customs. Let's urge that everything should be done in faith and love, that we should have firm conviction over our beliefs. Let every man be fully convinced in his own mind, Paul says. The faith that you have, have as your own before God. Act on it, giving thanks to God, but then don't judge your neighbor. And don't despise your neighbor. Be very careful about what you now think of so-and-so after having learned this. These are the principles that lay down the rest of the conversation. Any questions on this point? We still haven't gotten to David's question yet. We'll get to that with the listening part, I believe. But any questions so far on this part? You're saying that Not definitions we've now we have a euphemism for adultery we call it a love affair You know, it's it's it's adultery and fornication is fornication and all that what I'm saying is that society's beliefs and and habits have changed and I remember being in the 1990s and shocked that a coworker was living with his girlfriend. I'm not shocked anymore. And so I could think you could go back 150 years ago and it would be very difficult legally to obtain a divorce. But in the 1970s and 80s, all 50 states adopted no-fault divorce laws without one Supreme Court decision needing to back it up and make all the 50 states do it. Every single one accepted no-fault divorce laws across the board. Society has changed. We now, as a society, I'm just talking to society, we now accept that way more than we used to. It used to be very difficult. And so that's one, but cohabitation, Various forms of sexual immorality. Wow, it all continues to change. And now we're left with we can't outlaw it as much as we have to regulate it, if we can even do that. Is that helpful? Is that clarifying? A little bit. I guess what I found shocking was the other day in conversations with a person, we were talking about truth. And I said, what's the difference between truth and a lie? And she said, well, it's not a lie if it doesn't hurt anybody. That's a pragmatic definition of truth that's very common in America. Pragmatism is an American philosophy. And so if it works, it's true. Don't judge it by the short term. Does it work in the long term for you to be a liar? So Jesus said, wisdom is vindicated by all her fruits. So you gotta let those mature and see where they lead. Ultimately, everything that's true is wise. But that is American way of thinking. Defining truth by what works. But see, both of these are good examples. David's example about somebody that comes wanting affirmation for their position. Your example, here's somebody coming with a different definition of truth. This next section, talking about listening, we want to ask questions at that point. We want to follow it up with a question. Say, I'm curious about that. Would you apply that in every area of your life? You know, whatever you might think, you might reflect later. Maybe you didn't have it at the time, but as we grow in this, we want to be able to respond to statements like that with some questions. Helps them to see this is not workable. It's really not, you know, in the big picture. And then we can then, hopefully the door opens for us to then constructively say something. You follow me? We don't want to react. We want to hold back in reaction. It is so hard. How many of us can agree it's hard not to react? So that's why I'm spending the bulk of my time on encouraging conversations. So next page, listening. I got the James quote at the top. James gives the reason everyone That's everyone in this room. Everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger. We would save a lot of trouble if we would just bite our tongue, reflect a little bit on what we heard rather than react. Slow to speak, slow to anger, for the anger of man does not accomplish or achieve the righteousness of God. When we are angry, We're probably not motivated by the spirit of Jesus, who was angry at times, or zeal for the house of the Lord is consumed to me. We're probably angry on a different level. The anger of man does not accomplish the right things that God requires. So, who can tell me without looking what's the difference between hearing and listening? Spelling? I walk into these all the time. Who else can tell me the difference between hearing and listening? For kids, hearing is they understand what you said, but listening is obedient. I don't think that would apply in every circumstance, because you don't have to actually obey what a person is saying to you, but it evokes a response of some sort that not affirms in the sense that David was talking about it, but affirms in the sense of You're not just coming at it from your home. You've actually responded to that maybe. So it involves an engagement, a personal engagement. Listening does. Mere hearing may not, right? May not, right? At least in that case, in a child, they heard, but then they chose not to obey. Listening or hearing? So is she saying the same thing? If you're listening, you're actually trying to contemplate what this person means from their perspective. and not just reacting from your own. Is that what you said? No, but it's similar in the sense a child that's wanting to get what mom's perspective is on this is probably going to be more inclined to obey. But she used it in the sense of a child that listened is a child that obeys. And yours is in conversation. A person that's listening is others focused rather than self in the sense I want to understand what you're saying. I am listening to you. I am listening. That's the intention that an author that I read, I got it quoted here. I found this book in our library. Our library has interesting books from the 1960s. And I couldn't put it back in, because it's too psychologically bent in its counseling approach. But it had some insights. And I thought, well, I can benefit it by throwing it on this page, and you can get it. He actually lived by a train at his house. And my wife and I did when we were first married and had a little newborn. A train went right past the bedroom windows. We had to stop talking in our house because you couldn't hear anybody say anything. He says he got to the point that he didn't hear the train. I did too. My wife will testify to that. We got to the point where you didn't hear the train anymore. You're like, what? You can actually grow in your habits so much, you are not, you're hearing in the sense that sound waves hit your eardrum, but you are not registering anything in the brain. We can get to that point where we can shut something out completely. How many of our conversations are we actually shutting out things we're hearing? We're not listening. Pastor Lily says, don't go to the doctor alone. You hear some bad news, you walk away and they'll say, oh, I'm fine. And your son goes, no, dad. No, no, no. They said you're dying. Or they said you have this problem. So here's an interesting statistic in the book is that some people can talk 125 words per minute. Don't point to your neighbor who can do this. That's like two words per second. That's getting up there in speed, all right? It's estimated, though, that you can think four times that fast. If that's the case, you got a lot of extra time when you're hearing somebody talk to you. Can we all testify to what it's like to be doing something while we're on the phone with somebody? You know, to be like, you know, looking at your spouse, But thinking about the job you need to do and wishing this would be done, like, you know, I want to get to this. Or, you know, I disagree, but I'm really going to, you know, for this reason. What are we doing with all that spare time? That's the big question. Because we could use it to like, I'm really engaged in what you're saying right now, and I want to really help you. And I'm exploring in my mind, well, it could be this, could be this, could be this. I'm playing it out. And then what would be best and helpful to say next to you? Or am I thinking all sorts of distracted things, or side excursions, or other things? So on the back of your handout is a questionnaire from the 1950s for CEOs. I want you to turn to a neighbor, turn to a neighbor, and work on it together for the next three minutes here, and go down yes or no. Okay, yes or no. You answer yes or no. I'm going to pause this. All right, if I could have your attention again. If this was a driving test, how many of you passed? It's an interesting, the last one trips me up a little bit because I like to write down conversations. But I think I understand what the point is on the last one is that you should be listening well enough that you could repeat the conversation afterwards and jot down the gist of it. Rather than like, I'm gonna be lazy right now and not try to capture it all and hold it in my head and just jot down the thoughts. Do you see the difference? That's why I think it ended up being a yes or no on that one. This is thought-provoking. I hope this list is thought-provoking enough to say, how well do I listen? I know I have an area of repentance on here. I don't think I'm loving my neighbor in how I'm handling a certain area of listening. I'm not going to go through all Drakeford, John Drakeford and the art of listening or the awesome power of the listening ear. I'm not going to go through all the comments. I debated on whether to put it all down in the handout. But I kept in there, just thought, well, you might want to read them to at least look over. I think they're good practical advice. I'm skipping to the bottom of the second page now. Because I think asking good questions is the name of the game. I really think asking good questions is what it's about. Tim Branigan has often told us as a congregation how much Jesus asked questions. He would often answer a question with a question. And if you read the Gospels, you realize that that's common. Now some of his questions are rhetorical and different things too. But we had a ministry come to the church and it's helped equip ministry that our missionary Steve Bricks has been a part of, in trust ministries that has trained on leading Bible studies with questions. It still challenges me. Just the smallest kernel that I got was that number one is try to avoid yes or no questions. Drakeford says they're okay as long as you have a nice good reply next to follow it up. Basically, it's a rhetorical device. But don't you just hate conversations where somebody's dragging you along, trying to force you between false dichotomies and trying to say yes or no's to things, when you're like, wait a minute, it's a lot more complex than that. And you feel like they're trying, okay, did you agree with that, and they force you to the next, and you agree with this and force you to the next. So yes or no questions do not usually promote conversations. Nor do leading questions. Leading questions is, I have the answer in my mind, I think I asked a leading question, what's the difference between hearing and listening? Because you went out of the box, Avi, and I realized that's another way of looking at it, about children obeying or disobeying. Because I had a thought, what I thought should be the right answer. Well, any time you think you have the right answer and you're asking a question, it's not totally a sincere question. It's a rhetorical device. You follow me? A real question is, you don't know what they're going to say, or what they should say. You're asking a question. You want to ask questions, okay? So ask questions. The best questions are plural nouns because they give multiple answers. So tell me in what ways would this look like in real life? For what reasons would I want to take that view of truth? Can you give me some reasons why I should take that view of truth? And you might hear one or two that are good. You say, well I agree with that, but I think it would be defined this way. I wouldn't put it under the category of truth. I might put it under a different category. You know, what do you think about that? And then we're talking over ideas. You know, we're talking over person's thoughts. You follow what I'm getting at? Questions, questions, questions. This has been perfected by some, and Greg Kuchel, stand to reason, is one. And his disciple, not this one, Scott Klusendorf, applies it to the abortion debate. And this is a resource that I'm now going to assign to my students at Spring Branch Academy, because it's really good. And it's really high-powered stuff. And so it gets you thinking. He uses what Klusendorf, or what Kuku calls the Columbo questions. OK? Because that old television show, the guy asked a ton of questions and then would leave everything hanging, I guess. And so, for us not, for somebody not brought up in that generation, it's maybe losing its relevance as a metaphor, but the point, the point is well taken. If you don't know what to say, and you feel like you're on the hot seat, you can keep throwing the ball back to somebody by asking for clarification. What do you mean by that? Can you tell me some different ways that that would look like? Can you give me some examples of that? And you kind of keep throwing it over there so that maybe something will come up better in your mind to know what to say next. And so that's the first one is a little more defensive, but you're asking for clarifications. The second one is you're wanting to know why they believe it. And you're putting the burden of proof on them. Because a lot of times if somebody's attacking you or somebody's trying to convince you of something, they're putting the burden of proof on you, like, why don't you accept what I'm going to say? So the burden of proof needs to come from them. The questions would be like, so for what reason do you believe this? Or why did you believe this? Can you tell me in your life, what were the steps that led you to this position? I'd like to hear that. I'd like to hear, have you always believed this? Follow me? Conversing, listening, listening, listening. And the last one is when you offer your own conclusion. Now I have a different approach to this, which I'm going to say on the next page. I think the door opens up for us when they start asking us questions. Whoever that person is, when that person asks me a question, a true question, then I know the door is open for me to say something. But if they have not asked me a question yet, a true question, they have not opened the door for a conversation. And I should continue to ask various questions. Now, not be a pest, not be nosy and all different things, but ask questions. I read Drakeford's book and was like, okay, I want to try this out. And I was at Norm's Tire, you know, and I was just like, I just want to listen. I want to listen to somebody. And there was somebody there, and we had a whole hour while our cars were being worked on. I said, I just want to listen. And whenever I bring up something about God, it didn't go anywhere. So I didn't push it and I just kept listening. When I got done, I think, if I remember, I think the person thanked me for listening. And then offered, shared their life with me. Had a t-shirt on that had a picture with the dog that, you know, this person really enjoys and loves and showed me the picture. This is my dog. It was so affirming to me, like, praise God! Because if I ever meet this person again, or if this person were to happen to find out I'm a Christian, or different things, I would love to have the name of Jesus be more sweeter in that person's experience because of that, and they'd be more open and willing to talk and engage. And so it was like, This is interesting. Now what it required of me was to set my book down. Now some of you could set your book down really easily. Some of you set your book down every time you fall asleep after a page, okay? I just, okay, maybe you didn't get that far, I don't know. But I enjoy reading a lot. So I get somewhere, I usually have a book on my person. So I had to set the book down, or the magazine that I was reading. in order to say, you're more important to me right now than this agenda. And not just do this artificially. You are. By the end of that conversation, I felt the pain of that individual. There were several personal experiences of loss that were shared as a result of that. And I was a perfect stranger. Yes, John. Was that the same person that you first mentioned, God, that didn't go anywhere? It was you, John, don't you remember? No, just kidding. What happens to liars? Oh, no. Forgive me, Lord. I don't think so. I don't think so. Let's go to the last page. where the all or nothing show up. And I have 15 minutes that I want to just touch on these. One is a mentality, one is a solution, and one is a political solution, one is conversations. By the way, I think If somebody's trying to get you to affirm something, and they're trying to get you to sign off on the thing, I wonder, it makes me wonder, this is David's question, I wonder if asking questions is the way to go. Why do you believe that? How did you come to that position? And keep asking them. I want to understand, but I want to answer. I want to answer well when I answer. And if at the end of the day, okay, I understand what you're saying. And do you think I understand what you're saying? I can't agree with you. If you want to know the reasons, I'm happy to give them to you. But I can't agree with you. Yes? One of the numbers, I'm on the side of the majority. Yeah. Well, see, here's the thing. I would want to know if that's the heart of this person then. If these things are the way to go, then I want to ascertain why this person is asking me. Why did you bring that up? I'm curious. You know, this is Pastor Lily's stuff. I hope you guys realize this is what counselors do all the time. They're looking for the non-verbals, they're looking for certain responses, because they're wanting to get at the heart of things. It's not issue-driven, it's heart-driven. We want to get the heart. Parenting needs to be this way, that's what shepherding a child's heart, you know, I think that title suggests to me, you follow me? It's this kind of thing. Yes. Yes. Yes. Don't fall for bait. If you sense this is just... I don't want to interrupt, but can I ask you a question? Are you doing this for this reason? Now, I just need to know. And if so, I'm sorry, I can't. You follow me? And we don't want to fall for that, that bait. And that's if it's just going to be, I love to argue, I love to, you know, debate, whatever it might be, I love to threaten, you know, whatever. But we are free individuals before Christ. That's where that security comes from. I want to be able to have a security that says, you know what, you may think I'm a coward for not engaging in swallowing your bait and going that direction. I'm okay because I am secure in Christ with who I am. I'm okay with that. You can think what you want. Jesus knows way more about me and way more bad about me than you ever know or will know. And he loves me. And I'm secure in him. I think that's going to be your security on your identity and your possessions are really going to help you to be meek. Do what's best for the person and for the glory of God in the situation. So, first of all, with regard to mentalities, last year when things got really, really heated up, there was one mentality that showed up that was disturbing to me. All societies and all civilizations are gonna perish. Therefore, Christians shouldn't get involved in politics. Let politics do politics things. Let the world do its things. We're living for heaven. Don't engage. And I thought to myself, yes, I agree. I'm not post-millennial. Cultures are not going to become redeemed. They're not going to become Christian. They are going to go to the Antichrist. Ultimately, it's going to be a one-world government that will be horrible. As Jesus said, as violence increases, the love of many will grow cold. We see the end. It's coming. It's more and more. But so is my death. And your way of reasoning tells me, if I get sick at age 65, I might as well just stop all doctoring. I'm gonna die anyways. You know, it's like 20 centuries of Christian culture and civilization, whatever, Christianized. Okay. We might as well just cash it in, say there's going to be no temporary recovery, just don't engage, just let the culture die, let the world die, let it all perish. Well, if that reasoning is so, stop going to the doctor because you're all aging right now and eventually you're going to die. But if it's possible that God in his common grace could allow a season of renewal, a season of some measure of repentance, a season of some betterment, as we have seen in Western history, as England went from the age of djinn in the early 1700s to the evangelical revivals in the middle 1700s. as England avoided the French Revolution and ended up through evangelical influence going into Victorian England, which is filled with hypocrisy, but it's amazing that a culture affirmed sexual morality and things like that in certain areas. We could still see a revival of certain things because God is an almighty God who can grant repentances and can work even with a Cyrus of Persia, pagan Persia, to benefit his people Israel in rebuilding the temple. Okay, weird things can happen because there's an almighty God. And so I don't wanna just cash in and say, oh, You know, we're waiting for the Antichrist, and to try and improve society is just rearranging the chairs on the Titanic. You know, we're just, the deck chairs. You know, it's like, no! No, there are babies dying, or there are lives being hurt. There are situations that could be better. Let's, if we can, and especially if we're called to that, then let's work towards that. Let's say something. Now how we do it, I'm urging engagement versus the fusionist or the separationist. This is a separationist mentality I'm addressing. Quick model from the Gospels. When I was a young man, I read the famous preacher John R. W. Stott say, we should be engaged equally in evangelism and social action. I don't think that's true. Equal, equal, twin goals. It's not the mission of the church. But that doesn't mean because evangelism is the mission of the church, we don't do any social action as Christians. And the reason is because Jesus engaged in hurting people's lives. I call it, he had one mission to preach, and you can read it right, first chapter of Mark, his mission was to preach, but he had one interruption, hurting people. And he would stop, address a hurting people, and then would pick up and not be taken off from his one aim, which was to preach to all Israel the gospel. Now we preach to all world the gospel. But we can't be so high and holy that we can't stop to help our neighbor, can we? You follow me? So this is not an all or nothing. It's majoring on the majors while minoring on the minors. Politics is minor. The gospel is major. But we don't wanna just major on the majors and skip the minors. Okay, second. And then I'll let you ask questions at the end. I'm going to move through this quickly. Second, is we want to avoid, I think, all or nothing political solutions. Wow, I don't think I could be a politician. My conscience is so driven by idealism, it's really hard for me. It's hard for me to be a pastor sometimes, and a dad, and husband, and leader. But when it comes to politics, it's a mess. Politics is a mess. It's a mess, and a mess, and a mess, and a mess. And I can tell from church politics, you may think you understand what so-and-so needs. And in the back of my mind, I go, you You don't have an inkling what's going on right now in their home. Or in their lives. Or what's going on. And I'll smile. And I'll say, pray for them. Pray for them. But I cannot divulge all that's going on. There's so much complexity and stuff and mess in this world. We need to pray for our politicians. I don't pray enough because there's so much that they do, especially our Christian ones who serve in that way. And so if we can't outlaw abortion in Michigan, praise God for those who said, well, at least let's regulate it and make it difficult. Actually, there's rules in the book right now. It is outlawed in Michigan. If the Supreme Court would be turned back, it would become illegal in Michigan, right? Amen. OK. But if you can't do that yet, do what you can do. And there have been Christians who have done what they can do and continue to do, volunteer basis and a political round basis, to help our neighbor, even our little neighbors. OK. Third is the all or nothing conversation. You might say, well, people have made up their minds. It's vain to engage in political conversation. It's all or nothing. This next little section I got from this book by Don Byerly. Don Byerly was a biologist, a graduate student who came to Christ through the book of Job. It's a really fun story. And has had a ministry on surprised by faith. And this is a great little resource. But he talks about the differences in unbelievers. Some are unbelievers because they just don't know. Some are unbelievers because they can't decide. Some are unbelievers because they're hard-hearted. They've made up their mind, they don't want it. What am I dealing with? If it's outside the church, what am I dealing with as this person for redemptive conversations? Am I dealing with somebody who has rejected Christianity but never ever actually knew what real Christianity was about? They're actually ignorant. I want to be able to get them to at least hear what Christianity, what Christ is about. And so to understand where that person is at, Bayerly suggests if we could get somebody from being committed unbeliever back to doubt, we've made advances. And if you've done that in a conversation and God has used you, praise God. Don't think it was a wasted conversation. Remember, some plant, some water, God gives the increase. So sometimes we don't harvest. Sometimes we plant, sometimes we water. On the bottom of the page, from 1 Corinthians chapter 15, that's actually in Acts 17, but 1 Corinthians 15, I think there could be a really neat whole lesson, we could study the whole chapter on how Paul takes, can you believe this? Takes, not believers, they're unbelievers, they're members of the church of Corinth who don't believe in the resurrection of the body. And Paul has a whole chapter of how to take somebody from unbelief all the way to the end of the topic. And it starts with finding common ground. Well, you claim to be a Christian, right? Well, then you believe that Jesus rose from the dead, right? Well, if you believe that, and you're holding that there's no resurrection from the dead, then it couldn't have happened. Then this, this, and this is true. Oh, oh, oh, you're right. Well, what kind of body then did somebody have when they rise from the dead? Well, then Paul gives an analogy of like a kernel of corn and the corn stalk. He gives an analogy because analogies make the brain more flexible, expand the imagination to go, oh, I guess it could be that way. And then after somebody moves from that, then he says, let me tell you the truth. the mystery, and he then tells the fullness of the gospel. So where is the common ground with somebody, right, in our culture? Or in our church, where's the common ground? You need to find that common ground, start there. Where's the principles? Start from there. If you can't, well then there's not gonna be a conversation. But we can start there if we can. Focus on ideas and not evidence. When we have debates in school, our students are instructed to not question the evidence. I wish we as Christians would talk way less about claims of facts and talk way more about ideas. How many of us ever will know whether certain claims about this or that happened in society or in politics or in an election or in this scene or that scene will ever know what the true situation really was. If it takes courts of law and multiple witnesses in order to ascertain truth on certain things. Who am I not knowing diddly about so much and having to rely on others who are trying to sell things to get information? How reliable is this information gonna be at the end of the day? It might be true, but ideas don't change. What Sharon received, truth is whatever works. That's an idea. I don't have to dig up data to know whether an event happened or not. I can talk with ideas. Does that make sense? And then lastly, ask questions until the door opens. And I've given you the model of consultant on the bottom. What are your questions as we close today? Or objections? Or do we need to schedule an appointment because we need to have a conversation so I can understand truly what you're trying to tell me? Let me ask this question more profitably. What area do you think is missing here that you think at this moment it would be a shame to have the class end and this didn't get brought up because it would be helpful? Okay. I hope your desire to listen has moved from a lower number to a higher number. Okay? I want you to try it out. Ask questions, ask questions, ask questions. Be patient. Begin to see lives and hearts and minds open to you. And then prayerfully before God say, oh Lord, how can I help this person move along towards you? Because politics Since it deals with people's choices, even in economics, deals with culture and morality, politics is a means to start talking about spiritual questions and personal choices and personal experiences. Yes? Maybe something that you didn't mention specifically, but it's implicated in the greatest commandment. to do those, you have to engage correctly, you have to engage in the greatest commandment. Without the greatest commandment, you won't do that. Because you don't really care. So compassion and love of God, and you'll never reach yourself. Amen. Yep. That's the sun, and we're the moon. Because God is that way, Jesus, we want to be that way too. Let me pray. Father in heaven, Lord, This has been a topic, I think we could say, that has challenged and stretched us to some degree. I pray there be nobody that would interpret this desire to engage in conversation as some desire to not let people know the truth. We want people to know the truth about you, but we want people to want to hear the truth about you. And so we want some of the barriers, some of the misunderstandings, the prejudices, some of those things to come down for a greater door of opportunity to be given. As you have told us in your word, to conduct ourselves with wisdom towards outsiders. having our speech seasoned with grace so that we would know how to answer each person and make the most of the opportunity. Grant us, Lord, I pray, that wiser, more loving, direct approach. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.