Eli, you've been volunteering. I don't remember Leland being in the middle of a movie theater earlier in class. It's the only audience I have, Eli. Come on. He's also very quick. OK. All right. Yeah, I'll pray. Heavenly Father, I'm grateful that we have the ability to talk to somebody who was there and can help expand on what we've read. and make it more, you know, please use this whole interaction to make this something that we can benefit from better so that we might be able to imitate some of that passion for being able to reach out to unbelievers and evangelize. And so please be watching over this discussion. I pray in Jesus' name. Amen. Appreciate that. Thank you. I'm just going to look at a quick scan of what J.R. put down in this your answer, the anonymized answer, and... You've never seen my handwriting, so you wouldn't know. Okay. I edited those very slightly. These are great. Now these, the students outside have not seen this, J.R., right? Well, each one knows what they said. Okay, I gotcha. But they haven't seen each other's responses. I'm still reading here, and all these comments are right on target in terms of what he might want you to get out of studying himself. But I can't speak for Francis Schaeffer, but I appreciate your answers to this. So quick summary. I was engaged to my wife, and we were in college. I think both of us had a year or two left. and college, and we got engaged and decided to get married. Now, a big important decision, if you all remember, what might be, where are we going to spend our honeymoon? Where are we going to spend our honeymoon? We had no money, so we couldn't go anyplace fancy. And we had minimal money for transportation, cars, airfare, and all that stuff. So we had no idea what to do. And a friend of ours had come back, a mutual friend of my wife's and me, had come back from Europe on a summer tour, and she heard a wind that we were looking for a place to have a honeymoon. And she said, you need to go to this place in Switzerland. All my questions were answered there when I couldn't believe it, because she was a kind of intellectual woman and she had a lot of questions. As a matter of fact, she and I went to the same Pentecostal church growing up, so we knew each other quite well, but I didn't know that she had all these questions and so on. She was a year older than me. But anyway, she said, all my questions were answered at Labrie. That's what it's called, Labrie. It means shelter in French. And we thought, hmm, that sounds pretty interesting. Well, how much does it cost? Her name was Nancy. My wife's name is Nancy. How much does it cost, Nancy? He said, well, it's not very much. I think you can go as a visitor, which I did for a couple of weeks, or you can go as a student for about two and a half months. And it's like $2.50 a day per person for room and board. And you study half a day, and you work half a day. So we thought about, would there be a better place to start a marriage than a Christian community in Switzerland? And so we decided to go, we saved up our money, and because airfares weren't too bad in those days for students, college students, and we saved up our money, ended up at LaBrie Fellowship. Now we knew nothing of Francis Schaeffer. I was not a Presbyterian, neither was my wife, and we knew nothing about his theology, we knew nothing about really his main mission, except that he wanted to touch college kids' lives in particular. Now later on we discovered that he was a Presbyterian minister. We didn't know that when we went there. And he was sent to Europe as a European missionary to children, he and his wife Edith. And they were sent by the Reformed Presbyterian Church Evangelical Synod. And they went to Europe to begin work with kids. as I understand it, and maybe others as well. But as they were there for a while, Francis was, I think, engaged in the culture, thinking a lot about his own life. He had a moment of crisis. If you've read any of his books, you've probably read about his crisis, maybe a year of crisis, where he re-evaluated everything from zero. I'm not sure, standing here tonight, when that happened, when it came in. What year was that, Randy? It was in the 50s. Yeah, he had been there a little while, had had some church experience and so on. But at any rate, his kids, who were by then college age kids, had been coming home from college bringing friends. And so he began to realize there was a real need there. A lot of these kids came from, like many American youth of that era, a lot of drugs, sex, changing culture, things were being challenged. The Vietnam War was not going on exactly when he was there in the early days, but it was ramping up when we were there in 1969. At any rate, that was kind of his background. He was a missionary, and to children, And he and his wife decided to change their focus, buy a place in Switzerland, if they could, and then start a ministry for young people who had questions. They had a vision. And by the way, I was going to start with this brief devotional thought tonight, a verse that's meant a lot to me over the years. I know a lot more about it now than I ever did when I first came across it back when I was in church, Sunday school, and so on. Proverbs 16, 9. It is hard. A man plans his course, a man plans his steps, but the Lord determines his steps. You know, there are several translations of it. In this part, a man plans his course, but the Lord determines his steps. Boy, I had no idea when I was younger how true that was, and it was certainly true for Francis Schaeffer. They had plans to go to Europe, be European missionaries, which they did. They were supported. They were encouraged. But the focus of that certainly changed as his own kids came home from college and began to bring kids with questions with them. So that we found out a little bit later. But we were privileged then to attend in 1969. They did not take too many married people as students in those days. And I'm grateful to the Lord that they decided they would take chance on us. And they set up a wonderful basement room with a bath in one of the little chalets there in Huimo, Switzerland. And so we were able to live in this wonderful basement apartment, walk out the door, and there was all, I don't even know what valley it is, huge Swiss mountains right outside our door. It was a fantastic place just physically, geographically, for honeymoon. Not to mention all the other things that happened to us in that environment. So in case you don't know, Huemo, Switzerland is a tiny little farming village, if you can call it a farming village. Cowbells ringing all the time, all day long, short hikes right into the Alps, steep hills, green meadows and grass, beautiful flowers, an unbelievable setting. The Shapers bought a beautiful chalet just above the main road, which was just a two-lane road, a main road. And then down below them, they eventually bought property and added a chalet, a chapel, with a beautiful organ in it, and a couple other houses for staff. And they kind of grew and bought more property there. It truly had a Christian community. I was tempted early on when I went there to think we were going to a commune. Christian commune. It wasn't exactly what I thought a commune would be, because this was definitely a Christian community. But it was that kind of a flavor, very intimate. And so when we got there, they welcomed us, showed us this wonderful little place for this honeymooning couple to stay in. And then they gave us some thoughts and gave us a little preview of what was going to happen during our two and a half months. And which was, as I said a minute ago, you study half a day and then you work half a day. My wife worked in the kitchen with Mrs. Schaefer and then she switched to another job a little later on. I worked out in the fields and literally taking a big sigh and cutting grass all day long, or at least during my shift. cutting grass with a huge scythe, took care of some gardens, and that's what I did for a job. It was satisfying work because you knew you were a part of a community and you were contributing to the community. People did other things as well, but that was what my job was, to cut grass, but there were no lawn mowers, it was too steep, and the grass was growing very tall out in the field, so a big scythe. In case you're wondering how I did with that, I did cut almost, I cut my thumb off with the scythe, as I was trying to sharpen it one day, but that's a story for another day. Anyway, it was a wonderful way to begin. Now, then they also sit down with you, as they even do today in other libraries. They sit down with you and help you kind of create a program. Now, they didn't know us very well. We were Christians. We didn't have a lot of questions like the drug addicts and others might have had from a non-Christian background. We had a Christian background, but not a lot of formal training. So they knew that. But they really didn't know what our theological background was. And oh, by the way, mine was Arminian, Charismatic, or Pentecostal, Tongue-speaking, Baptist, predispensate, premill, predispensational, completely opposite to what I am now, as a matter of fact. There are still folk in my camp that are premillennials. But anyway, I was just opposite of everything that was there. But I didn't know that when I went to LaBrie. Because their whole point is for you to engage with the community. And it doesn't matter what background you came from. If you have questions or comments or whatever, please share those. So they weren't digging into my past, and we were just there to kind of listen and offer what we could, ask questions. And part of that process, when you were studying, you would study some of the suggested books they had, and of course, a lot of Schaefer tapes. We listened to a lot of Schaefer tapes. I think some of you have listened to them too, is that correct? Along the way, no, yes? We've read a number of his books. I see you've got the trilogy here in front of me. Anyway, so, and I must say that when we went to Labrie, we read Escape from Reason on our way there. And I hardly understood a word of it. when I went to read that book. I had to read several places several times to try and grasp. I didn't have a philosophy background. It was kind of out of my league. But nonetheless, God used that book, Escape from Reason, to at least help us know what some other Christian leaders were thinking about, especially Francis Schaeffer. And so all that summer, we were there, was kind of an expansion of that book and others he was in process of writing, which came out later in his life and career. But it was, you know, who is God? What is the Bible? How important is Genesis? All those questions were kind of being asked and tossed. Who is Jesus Christ? And so our studies had to do with some of those kinds of things. I remember specifically one book that I was just appalled that it was even there, but it was a book titled Predestination by Lorraine Bettner. I'd never heard of Lorraine Bettner before and I'd certainly never read a book on predestination. So I began to wonder if this was really the place where we should be. If they believed in predestination, what else am I going to learn at this place? It was a real challenge to me. And it was very, I did read at least a lot of the book. And that was one of the books that really began to challenge my mind about some of the other theological things that were tied to that. So they were very low key about the whole thing. So you get up in the morning and you'd have breakfast with the whole crew for breakfast, and then you go to your work essentially in the morning and get whatever had to be done. And Nancy would come back of course to help with lunch during the day, but I would stay out there till lunch, then we'd come back for lunch. And breakfast weren't so much a discussion time, everybody was tired, but lunch and dinner were serious discussion times. There might be a topic, there might be a lecture, maybe even a mini lecture at least, But you were there to discuss and talk and interact with the other people at lunch and dinner. And they were indeed serious times. That's how they approached everything. I remember one night, Nancy and I, probably not as serious as we could have been, were just off to the side chatting with somebody. And we happened to laugh about something. And one of the staff, Udo Middleman, son-in-law of Edith and Francis, came right over. to where we were sitting and said, we don't laugh at dinner time. This is serious. People here have serious questions and we want to make sure we're not distracting from the questions they're asking and the answers that are being given. Okay. Okay. We thought that was a little severe, but I'm sure even Jesus laughs sometimes. But anyway, but can't find it in the Bible. But anyway, so we have, we have, uh, that the atmosphere was very serious, but don't get, I don't want to give the impression it was, um, not good for a lot of tremendous discussion issues took place during those lunch and dinners. Sometimes Francis Schaefer would be there to help with that. Edith would be there. The other staff would be there. There were several other staff, males and females as well. And they would be there to take care of the discussion and lead it. And so they shared a lot of the responsibilities. Evening times are generally spent with a lecture. And at least once a week, Dr. Schaefer would lead the lecture. They also would have music. And they would also play this wonderful, it was kind of a miniature pipe organ. that was wonderfully put together and they would use that, although there were guitars there as well. After all, it was the 60s. And so we had guitars, but mostly singing hymns. If you've seen the movie, Jesus Revolution, wasn't quite, that music had not quite touched Labrie in 1969. That's the movie about the Jesus Revolution in California. Anyway, so, but the day was spent, almost every day was spent that way. breakfast in the morning with everybody, go to work, do our jobs, and then come back and have discussion at lunch, and then we'd go to our study time. The basement of the chapel was a library with headphones that you could listen to all these tapes. Remember, this was before any iPods or anything like that, but it was all cassette tapes. And so we would listen to those tapes, take our own notes, study, do whatever we wanted to in terms of other books and whatever. It was quite a nice sabbatical. And it was kind of an introduction to what a sabbatical should be to two young kids who didn't know much about studying seriously the Bible and theology. And then the evenings might have guest lectures from the arts. We had an opera singer on staff. We had people who actually were artists. And musicians and so on would come and share their thoughts. And it was a well-rounded well-armed opportunities for us who were there as students. If you've read his books, which I guess you have, you will know their concern for art and literature. Francis Schaeffer loved jazz. He loved paintings. Edith was tremendous in regards to hospitality and wrote a whole book about it. And we're talking about a place that the table was set immaculately. There were fresh flowers every meal. There was beauty all around, purposeful beauty. everywhere you went. It was kept, of course, clean, and it was just all designed to glorify God, really, is what was happening, in all the ways we could in that setting. We had one day off a week, in case you're wondering, and so those days were spent hiking, for the most part, or going down to Geneva or Lausanne or some other place, and just have some fun. They encouraged us to do that. Sundays were a traditional Lord's Day for the community. Dr. Schaefer would often preach, but not always. Some of the staff would preach. And we'd have a full-blown, fairly formal worship service there on Sunday, all leading to the Sunday afternoon lunch, where we might discuss the sermon and engage in what was said at that sermon time. And then we'd go back to the chapel after Sunday lunch, as I recall, and we'd have another lecture or another discussion. whatever they had set up. I don't remember if we did anything on Sunday nights, but you get the gist of it. The week was spent seriously, with time to take off, time to get some physical work in, but a lot of time and discussion. And we were not used to that initially, but you sure got used to it quickly when you realized how satisfying it all was. On staff that summer, we were there. Any of you read Oz Guinness along the way? No? Yes? Oz Guinness? He's written some wonderful books. And Oz Guinness was on staff there. And he knew that Nancy and I, just a little aside, were Campus Crusade for Christ people from college. And actually, Campus Crusade was a very important parachurch entity in my life and her life. as it kind of broadened our lives and our view of who might be Christians. Because there were actually some Methodists and Presbyterians in Campus Crusade, and Baptists and Pentecostal. There was a wide group of people. And in my background, I was pretty sure only Pentecostals were going to be in heaven. But of course, I wasn't sure. But we met other Christians. And so crusade was very important to us. I remember this one day though, Os Guinness grabbed me and he knew we were campus crusaders. And if you know the four spiritual laws, it begins with God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life. I never thought twice about that, seemed good to me, but Os Guinness grabbed me and said, Doug, how do you know God loves you or someone else and has a wonderful plan for their life? How do you know that? Meaning, how could you say that? How do you know that God loves somebody? And what he was doing was gently moving us towards a reformed theology, which helps us understand that there are some that God doesn't love. He has prepared some as vessels of wrath, Romans 9 and so on. He was challenging us to be thinking about some of the common things that we would say. And at the time, I was a bit offended. But since then, I thought that was probably not a bad question to ask a campus crusader. How do you know that, Doug? How do you know? How can you say that to people? God loves you. That's a wonderful plan for your life. Anyway, so there was interaction all day long. And when you're working with people, of course, you're talking, you're discussing and analyzing things, having fun, telling jokes. I mean, it was a very, very safe and wonderful and stimulating Christian community. So let me just stop right there. It's already seven o'clock. Is that either from your reading or from just my quick overview here of LaBrie? I want to say more about the Schaffers in a few minutes, but any questions or comments or anything from what I just said or your reading? You said that Schaefer liked jazz, but I think it was in the guy who was there, there were remarks about jazz that didn't sound like he was real keen on it. He pointed out all jazz. He had one of their supporters and dear, dear friend was a jazz expert. And so I think that's part of what I would say. The question was, he doesn't always seem like he was fond of all jazz. And I think probably not. Because some jazz would be, this is just Doug Lee interpretation, he would probably not like jazz that didn't have, that had too much dissonance. Or didn't resolve itself. Because he loved music that would resolve itself and lift up our eyes and hearts higher than ourselves. But he did like jazz. And I didn't like jazz. So I was kind of intrigued by his love for jazz and paid more attention to it after Libri, actually. Do you remember who was on staff for that? For the jazz part? If I had his, one of the Libri books here, I'm sure he's mentioned in some of the Libri books. Like I said, it's not terribly pertinent to theology and growth and spiritual life, I like jazz too. If I think of it I'll let you know. It's on the tip of my tongue. Yeah, he was an art guy, but he liked jazz. That's right, Hans Ruckmacher. So you mentioned, you know, for me, if any of you have a Symbolism of God or Pentecostal background, music is a big part of our life and worship. But it was all Christian music, it was all hymns, it was all gospel music, and you didn't want to dip too much into secular music of any kind, in my background. Because after all, you don't want to smoke, drink, or chew, or go with girls who do. And he certainly didn't want to dance. I came from a very pietistic and legalistic background. But music was, you learn how to do gospel piano, and sing in the choir, and so on. And so his thoughts about jazz were kind of challenging. Like, oh. Oh, he's a Christian and he likes jazz. That was a revelation to me. And so I appreciated that. And that, though, was only part of their exploration into art of all kinds. And the ability that we have as people made in his image to create such beauty. Shapers are all about beauty and about creating beauty. Whatever the medium happened to be, they wanted people to use it to glorify God. So I remember, excuse me, any other questions? Well, I hate to shift gears because it's a beautiful topic. Just something a little more along the lines of personal to you. Were you part of the AOG in your charismatic days? Entirely, yes. Yes, okay. Now their music is more has more of a country, tends to have more of a country flavor to it. Yeah, southern gospel. Yeah, yeah. And yet, nobody, nobody mentions the fact that Jimmy Swagger's cousin was Gary Lee Lewis. Oh, that's right. Right? Anyway, so. All right, just my question. But Jimmy Swagger, Jimmy Swagger never used his cousin as examples of music you should be following. He played like Really was that a turning point in your life from your charismatic background and I want to really ask you about you know and most Pentecostal people believe in a personal should receive. Have you repudiated that aspect of your charismatic experience, and how much of your charismatic experience have you repudiated? For some of it does consist of historic Christianity, and yet there's the trappings of the charisma. Well, you're the first person to ask me some of those questions. You're the first person to ask me some of those questions, but I will start by saying, Labrie was a radical departure from all that. Now, in terms of my personal life, I will keep everything I had a reference to my family background, my Christian cousins, aunts, and uncles, all who were Pentecostals. But they loved me, they supported me, they encouraged me, and I became a Christian in my church. I walked the aisle in a children's church when I was eight years old. So I will be eternally grateful for the basics of the gospel I got in my church. So I wanted to make positive about that. And even though they had no understanding of how we view, how Reformed folk view theology, because they were totally Arminian, but I did respond to Jesus and turned from my sin and put my faith in Christ. In fact, it was so powerful, I went home and told my mother that I did that. She was delighted. I said, and I will, I promise you, I will never watch any more cowboy shows. She was, she thought they were way too violent back when Haviland Cassidy was, you know, actually doing good things with, anyway. But, you know, the, so I want to say that first. But I did have, as I was growing up, out of, into high school and so on, I had a lot of questions about it. One of the main questions I had was their doctrine of the initial physical evidence of being a Christian is that you receive the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues. That's a Stony the God doctrine in a nutshell. And besides the Arminian part of the nut. So I had a lot of questions about that growing up. I did speak in tongues quite a bit. It wasn't a private tongue, though. It was a tongue that you operated and used in church, where more people could hear you and see you, frankly. Did you ever have a person in the crowd that said, oh, he's speaking Kazakhstanian? Absolutely not. Of course. Because known tongues was not part of the equation. And you were taught how to speak in tongues at Bible camps and so on. And I was young. It was all, I do believe, just the march ahead many years, that there's a lot of emotions that go into all that stuff, a lot of emotional pricking towards emotions that are still part of the Word of Faith and all kinds of other groups these days. So your question is very personal. I had to wrestle with this. What I saw, what I experienced in tongues, and what I saw in church didn't seem to match with some of the scriptures that I saw. Like, they did have interpretations. People gave an interpretation, but it was always the same. And tongues... And the same people used them. Pardon? And the same people used them. That's right. You must have come from a similar background. Did you? then they're done that, right? Along the way, this is maybe after we were married, after we met Schaefer, I remember talking to my mother one day, who was a very devout Christian, and my dad as well, but she never could speak in tongues. And I realized later on, this is far from Schaefer here, but I realized later on that she kind of lived vicariously through my sister and me. Because when we spoke tongues, that would bring a light to her eyes, And she would say, well, at least my kids are speaking in tongues. But I can't. She lived her whole life thinking she was a second-rate Christian. That really bothered me later on, because she was a wonderful Christian. But to not go too far away, it was actually Hal Lindsey. I don't know if you younger people here know about him. Oh, I'm well aware of Hal Lindsey. I actually met him. How old are you, Eli, if I might ask? I'm almost 49. Okay, okay. You look very young from here. But anyway, Hal Lindsey, you know, in Late Great Planet Earth, he was on Campus Crusade staff. I joined staff for a year and Hal Lindsey was the first person that gave me a decent understanding of the role of tongues in acts. Without going into a lot of details, he pointed out that acts as a book, or there's a transition between Old Testament, New Testament, Old Covenant, New Covenant. Jesus was there, then he wasn't there, the Holy Spirit came, that was a fresh wave. The Holy Spirit was always there, of course, but the Holy Spirit came to God's people who were in that intertestamental period. And he said that tongues was used as a sign to unite the believers from Jerusalem to Judea to Ephesus. That's exactly what we see in Acts. I preached yesterday from Acts 19, where Paul met with some Ephesians folk, and they had not heard of the Holy Spirit. All they knew was the baptism of John. But they knew about Jesus from John, but didn't know about the Holy Spirit. That was the most, wow, yeah, that's what tongues was all about in Acts. It was uniting the Christians. Evidently, like they had Pentecost, there were other non-Christians who were hearing the word being preached by Peter in their language. That also gives us a clue about what glossolalia was. But anyway, Hal Lindsey, of all people, whose eschatology and other theology I don't agree with, but he was a help to me in putting aside tongues. Also, just to your question, Leland, I was on crusade staff for a year and we had to write that if we were Pentecostal or charismatic we wouldn't speak in tongues while on staff. Anyway, all those are little tidbits of where they came in. So, Pentecostal, I love music because of my Pentecostal roots. I love that Jesus was taught. I had Christian friends who kept me out of trouble and We had good fellowship, and all those things were part of my background. But the theology part of it was a puzzle to me. I didn't quite see how the Old and the New Testament connected to each other. And there were other questions, like no one ever talked about Romans 9, where there were vessels of wrath and vessels of destruction, and Esau and Jephthah. No one knew I'd ever preached on that stuff, but when I read the Bible, oh. What's that all about? Why is that ignored? All those verses that relate to those kinds of things were a puzzle to me. And also, just as a personal account, I didn't share this the other day at the Presbytery, but I didn't want to be a minister. I did share that. I didn't want to be a pastor. Because they weren't very personal. Even our youth pastor was not. He never took me aside and said, hey Doug, let's go get a Coke or something. Pastors were distant, away, they had odd wives and strange cars. I just didn't want to be a pastor. I thought, I don't want to, Parrot Church is where it's at. You know, Caps Crusade, Navigators, Worship of Christian Athletes. It was that time. And yeah, yeah, and so, you know, and God used, and still using those groups, but I wanted to be, in fact, we were going to be missionaries to Europe, greater Europe mission, my wife and I thought. I was getting a degree in radio and television production. I was working at a TV station. And I thought, to be a director, that was my career goal. But I'm getting ahead of myself. So when we were at Labrie, this is another back to Schaefer for a minute. When we were at Labrie, those are the days you could sit with him in his bedroom and just talk. Wherever he was, you could talk with him there and have a personal relationship. And so we were wondering what to do. And we got back to the States after this experience, which by now had matured us in ways we hadn't expected. We thought, where would you recommend we go if we wanted to get some formal Bible training? We had a lot of church Bible training, but it wasn't formal Bible training. And at LaBrie also, I learned there were the institutions called seminaries. I didn't know about seminaries. I didn't know what they were. I guess Catholics had seminaries and some Lutherans I knew about, but I didn't really know that they were preparing people for the ministry. I was just totally ignorant. And one of the guys there who was on staff preached one Sunday, and I said, wow, that's really impressive. Where did you learn to preach like that? He said, Covenant Theological Seminary. And that's about when I learned that Schaeffer was this Reformed Presbyterian guy, Evangelical Synod. And he had a lot of connections with some interesting people in the Reformed and Presbyterian world. And there were seminaries. And there was a, his denomination actually had a seminary and a college. That was all, all new to me. So we got back to the States. I had a year of college to finish, but we decided let's go get a one-year Master of Arts in Bible. Remember now, I didn't want to be a minister. I just wanted to get some Bible Maybe like why you're here in seminary, why you're in New Geneva. You want to get some theological strength in your bones. And so, let's go to Covenant Seminary for a year. And then maybe we'll go to graduate mission, or maybe I'll go back to my career plans and be working TV in particular and radio. So, we get to Covenant, signed up, I've got jobs, we're paying our own way, And it was springtime and I thought I was going to be graduating when all of a sudden they brought me in and said, well, Doug, you know, you can't graduate this spring. What? What do you mean? Well, you didn't take the prerequisites. I didn't know anything about prerequisites. And then I realized, well, oh, well, if I stayed another half year, we'd be halfway through this degree they call an MDiv, Master of Divinity. And I guess that's what ministers need. I didn't want to be a minister, so I wasn't paying too much attention to that. But well, we'll just stay for all three years then. Well, God needed time for me, obviously, because the biggest hurdle for me was not predestination anymore or election. It was infant baptism. I got a lot of friends who are not Pedro Baptists, and God's using them mightily. But I struggled with that one. All this is tied to Schaefer. So we're at Schaefer. We're learning little bits of pieces about this Reformed theology. And then this staff person says he went to Covenant Seminary. And Dr. Schaefer is a Reformed Presbyterian. And all this is starting to really be interesting through what I could do. And wouldn't you know, to make a long story short, at the end of seminary, I was phone called and then called to a church. By that time I had learned that Presbyterians have a certain government, there are sessions, they can encourage people with their gifts, Presbyterians are involved, I was learning all this stuff and I wouldn't you know. Remember that verse, in this heart a man makes his plans but the Lord determines his steps? We had plans to go to Greater Europe Mission, not be a church, there I was in a church, And I got ordained as a minister of the gospel. For which I'm very grateful. After your study time at Labrie, how did that continue? Did you continue to read? OK, so that's a great question. So Labrie is all about relationships, all about relationships. And so we were challenged and knew that we had to keep that going somehow. So we started a Schaeffer, Labrie, Schaeffer discussion group. in our apartment as a newly married couple and found people from high school and college and Campus Crusade and we had a great time for a year of carrying on that discussion. We had to. We could not go to LaBrie and be home and sit around watching TV. We had to do something. We knew about evangelism because the crusade was big on encouraging us to go out to go. The discussion part, it was great. So we had food. Interestingly enough, as a result of that, my kids, we tried to carry that through when I did become a pastor in our church and so on. But my oldest daughter and four of her six kids and her husband just spent two and a half months at English Labrie. They had been hosting up to 75 people in their home in what is called Friends of Libri. There are only three or four of them in the world, and you have to get permission to use the name and connection, but they have been hosts of Friends of Libri in their home. Then they went to Libri, these last two and a half, January through middle of March, wondering what's next for them. And they had their plans, but they don't know exactly what steps God's taken. So it's been thrilling. and heartwarming to see the continuation and the impact of LaBrie on their lives. And they have people living in their home that were staff of LaBrie in England. And so this LaBrie thing continues to another generation. But as I said, LaBrie is all about relationships. And so I remember one evening, my wife and I both have this memory where one of the staff said something really offensive to someone. We don't know what it was. But Schaefer heard about it. And he got right on that. And he was going to have that kind of untoward, unchristian behavior going on when an unnecessary, unkind comment was made by one of his staff. He got right on that. I remember another incident with Schaefer. There were many incidents. But they were also in a community, a Swiss community. They spoke a passable French. And they were very concerned about their neighbors. Very concerned about their neighbors. Love your neighbor as yourself. And I remember one evening, he just told a story about a family in the community that was having some struggles with whatever. And he just started crying talking about this issue with somebody in the community. Dr. Schaefer was very passionate and very sensitive. He was probably more so than his wife. Edith was more kind of cut and dried, organizing things, a big force behind him. But they were a good match when you put it all together. But that spirit of friendship, spirit of relationship, permeated the Libri community. And they still work hard on that at the other locations for Libri. I know, because I've met people who've been there and so on. So I hope you agree that we look back and think, where else What else could we have done for our honeymoon that would have been as influential as Liberty Fellowship? We had no, no. It changed our lives radically. And through it all, it cemented my decisions, some of which I had made, about my background, ecclesiastical background. My mother never fully accepted it. She thought till her dying day I was really a missionary for the Assemblies of God in the Presbyterian Church. Part of this class has also been a comparison of Schaefer's apologetic approach and others. Would you care to talk about that? I've probably forgotten most of what I know related to those things, but he was, I'm not sure how you're addressing it here, but he was a presuppositional man, that's how I put it. He was very concerned about our presuppositions. And the longer I live, I am I think he was really on to something. So our presuppositions about the Bible, our presuppositions about life, about who we are as human beings, all very, very critical. He and Van Til had some issues as they talked about theology and stuff, but they were nonetheless brothers and others as well. But I think his, I didn't know, remember now, I didn't know anything about those theologies when I was there. But I could hear him talk about presuppositional thinking, and then he wrote about it in his books. I remember one thing, this was asked of me at Presbytery the other day, were you there in the meeting, or was this later? How did I get to my position on, in my case, young earth? Yeah, and that was in committee. Yeah, in committee. And it was really his comment about, you know, historicity, presupposition that the Bible is God's Word and that when God wrote something in His Word and preserved it, whether it speaks to history, whether it speaks to science, whether it speaks to salvation, it's true. It's not a science book, it's not an English book, but God is speaking truth. And he says the first three chapters are absolutely critical. that we believe them as they're written. Now, he would give some liberty, I think, for versions of young earth, old earth. But God created the earth. He created people. He created Adam and Eve for a reason. Hidden in all that, that's when I first began to hear about the hints and shadows that are in the Bible, about what's to come. All that were little hints. And you'd hear it in sermons. little pictures of this. So, I also knew, speaking of his theology, was that he was a committed Calvinist. Okay. I didn't doubt it, but again, some of those comparisons, it seems that there were some questions raised. Oh, I'm sure. You can imagine college students swarming in the, he might have had some very, but I know he was, I know he believed the Westminster Confession. And I know he thought that was a good summary of his faith, because it was a statement of faith for his denomination. He was very loyal to his denomination. That was my introduction. Schaefer referring to the first question. And it just kind of grew from there. Well, that's very good. That grew there for me too. It grew there for me. You know, in those early years, when you're there and then growing up, you don't realize, oh, that's going to impact you. But it certainly did. And God had his, he was preparing my steps with that foundation. Back to the issue a minute of beauty and hospitality. Beauty and hospitality were really critical for Edith in particular. And so her beauty, I mean, her views on beauty came into, as I remember, how you cut the cucumbers and how you display the plates and how you decorate. And they didn't have a lot of money. And so, but they had a warm, a warm, wonderful home with, it wasn't a Monet on the wall. It was fresh flowers instead. You know, I mean, it was, She talks about it all in her book on hospitality. I forgot the name of it. What's her book on hospitality? It's got a blank on it. Well, she wrote a couple. Yeah, but this is her first one. Anyway, she's written several on them, but that was important for Nancy and me. It affected Nancy and me when we went back to our own first apartment. We don't have to be rich to have a warm, inviting place. What can we do? Nancy was mainly concerned with it. How can we decorate to make it warm and inviting? To this day, she loves having candles on the table and flowers, if her husband will buy them for her, on the table. Edith was a very significant impact on her life. Because our parents, Christians as they were, they didn't talk and think about some of those things, and how art fits in with the Christian worldview, and so on. So, Liberty affected us in many levels, many levels, that I look back on, it was really quick. We have five minutes, if that. Well, yeah, we're past time. We're past time? Oh, I didn't know that. Can I get one more question? It's up to J.R. I hate to say no, but I know Mark's going to be waiting to get his class started, so what I'd like to do, because this is our very last time together for this class, and so if you would just pray for all of us that we can take what we have learned through studying the life and the ministry of Schaefer, and that that would be impactful to us in the same kind of way that it's been impactful to some of the others. Sure, I'd love to do that. By the way, if you want to email me, it's Doug E. Lee. Doug E. Lee. Dougie Lee at Gmail. And I'd be happy to interact with you that way. So let me pray for you. Heavenly Father, we are amazed. But there aren't just Francis and Edith Shaffer that are affecting the world for Christ. There are many, many other people who have affected hundreds and thousands of souls. But Lord, in this particular class, we thank you for the opportunity that they have had to study some of his thinking. And Lord, I pray as they think about what they read about the Schaffers, as they look at the theology, as they examine it against their own theology, that you might encourage them and help them come to some clarity on issues they may be having. We thank you that Labrie continues. Entirely funded on faith and on prayer. And Lord, I thank you for the stability you've, over the many, many years that Labrie's been going, and the testimony that is to the world. So Father, may this crew listening here, listening there, be encouraged as I think more about him and his wife. In Jesus' name, amen. Amen. Thank you so much for coming. You're welcome. That was a blessing for us to finish.