This is the Faith Debate on News Radio 930 WFMD on the FM at HD2 99.9 FM and online at WFMD.com. You can take us with you wherever you go live stream or you can listen later on the podcast. Speaking of podcast, you can connect with all sorts of podcasts related to this show, other teachings and sermons that I'm involved with at my church. You can get there by going to HouseholdOfFaithInChrist.com. You can connect with all the social media. You can connect with my Odyssey account and see videos and even audio podcasts, even though it's a video platform. Sermon audio, all of our stuff is getting posted there slowly over time. There's a lot of stuff to post and there's probably in the ballpark of, I don't know, 500 podcasts posted there, but there's more to come. But anyway, you can get to all of that sort of stuff at HouseholdofFaithInChrist.com. I'm Troy Skinner, joined this week again by one of the elders at the Shabbat gathering in the Gettysburg area of Adams County, just north of Frederick County, in case you're geographically challenged and don't know where that is. We've spent the last several weeks, well, let me back up. We talked for goodness, eight or ten shows probably, mostly about the Chicago Statements on inerrancy, hermeneutics, and biblical application. We didn't finish our total look on biblical application, and my anticipation is that probably the next episode we'll swing back in that direction and wrap up our look at the Chicago Statement on application. just as a programming note for you. The last few shows we were talking about the Danvers Statement and the Nashville Statement. These are church organization types of things that were put together over the last generation or so, talking about issues of sex, sexuality, sexual role, sexual identity, sexual behavior, those sorts of things. And we pretty much finished all of that up last week, and so now this week we're going to shift gears and be a little bit more in the moment and speak to things that are going on around us in the church culture. In recent months, there's been a lot of hope for a possible sign of a broad revival for the church. And so some people point to things like over the last few years there's been the Chosen TV series has come out and it's been very successful. I've got some issues with the Chosen, but you know, it's not all bad. And then more recently this year, There was what was called the Asbury Revival at a college-slash-seminary-campus area. And then on the heels of that, there was a movie that came out this year that did surprisingly well, at least, well, surprising to those who are naysayers about faith-based movies doing well, called Jesus Revolution. And there are other faith-based kinds of movies that are out. Nefarious is a Christian horror film, believe it or not. Yeah, believe it or not. And other interesting things in the culture. They say, hey, look, there's an awakening happening here. And I thought we should talk to the moment, and I had a chance to talk with Steven Yerger, you know, before the show about some of these things, and he's got some interesting insights and some personal experience on some of the matters that are related to this sort of issue, so I'm going to open the floor to you to see, you know, what kinds of things you have to say about what happened at Asbury, you know, your thoughts about the historical moment that is represented by the Jesus Revolution movie, and how the two possibly are even interconnected, because I think there is a bit of a connection of how we can think about what happened back in the 70s and what maybe is or isn't happening here in the 2020s. So, floor is yours for now. What do you have to say? Well, I came to the Lord in 1975, which is probably four years to the tail end of the Jesus movement from 68 to 72, I think. I mean, I'm just kind of grabbing here at what the years are. But I grew up an hour away from, you know, Chuck Smith's church and that the Jesus movement, you know, went all across the country and even they mentioned in the movie of Jesus Revolution that the Ashbery had a revival there and it was connected to part of that movement. And I know some local pastors here in the area that were very much influenced by the movement in the early 70s, 72 time frame. And, you know, the word of God was just like incredible. It was free. People were like, you know, how do we respond to this? How do we? How do we just, you know, forsake all and follow Him just with all zeal and reality? And, you know, significant different men of God that came out of that movement. Number one is Keith Green. You know, he came out of that movement, and what a ministry he had. Keith Green might not be known to everybody. Keith Green was a He died far too young I think he was only like in his late 20s when he died in an accident of some sort I believe aircraft accident and he was a Already becoming very popular, but it's still kind of what seems to me in the early stages of what was going to be a fantastic least successful long career in Christian music and he's still popular among people that like the older Christian music to this day you'll hear Keith Green's name come up rather frequently and But if you're outside of those circles, the name means nothing to you. And to be honest, I don't know by today's standards of taste that his music holds up all that well. It sounds a little bit dated, but if you like that old school sound, like some people prefer country music from the 60s and 70s more than they like the country music of today. Some people like that old folk kind of sound in pop music that was popular in the 70s more than they like today's pop sound. So I wasn't being disparaging, but Now that we mentioned his name, I could see some people going online and trying to find, you know, videos or podcasts that have his music and be like, this guy was popular. Consider the timeframe and appreciate it for the moment when the music came out. And he was incredibly talented and, and, and, uh, uh, and theologically sound. Yes, I was going to say that he challenged people in their Christianity, whether if there was hypocrisy or, you know, standing back, not, you know, being asleep and not really understanding what the, you know, the mandate of the gospel to, you know, preach to the whole world. So he was a compelling force that really challenged people to not just sit back and You know sit in the church pews for two hours and worship, and then you know go watch football and Go out to eat or whatever nothing any of those things are bad in themselves, but he was he was kind of like a John the Baptist and You know prepare you the way of the Lord So this movement is is an incredible movement, and there was significant Ministries and men of God that have come out of the movement, and then we see through time how things were tested and some ministries that did really well and some ministries kind of went by the wayside. There's different individuals that kind of came from the initial Jesus Movement, then the Vineyard Movement was birthed, and you have John Wimber, and you know, Paul Cain, and you got, you know, different, Mike Bickle, you got different individuals that came up and through these different ministries, and yet, there was a kind of, through the testing of time, some of these ministries started kind of missing the mark in certain areas. Maybe not the ministry as a whole, but the men of God themselves, they were starting to see some compromise or some kind of going off in ways that, you know, what was the original message all about? And in the Jesus Revolution movie, there's a scene where Lonnie Frisbee, is one of the characters in the movie, which is played by the actor that plays Jesus in The Chosen. His name escapes me, God forgive me. His last name's Romy. Romy. I can't think of his first name for some reason. Right. But, you know, he plays very well the character in who he's representing. And there's a portion in the movie where there's a difference of opinion or a difference in philosophy that's starting to develop between uh... chuck uh... smith who a lot of this is about and greg uh... lori lori because it's really their story okay it's not a very by the way jonathan is thank you his first name and uh... you you see where a young man, and he's being elevated in an incredible way, and this is why it's important to have men in your life, to have ministries or accountability or checks and balances kind of thing, so that yes, you have a gift, yes, you have the ability to go and be able to operate in a particular gift, but there's also, you need the seasoning of leadership and the iron sharpening an iron so that there's a, a balance so that if something is kind of not doctrinally correct or thematically correct There's men that will help adjust and encourage and move you on forward so that you can be all that you need to be so that, number one, the name of God is glorified. His name is, and His character are consistently demonstrated as accurate as the Bible defines it. And it's important that, you know, and I know I'm getting off the, Tinge here a little bit, but you know the aspect of not being put in leadership too quickly in the limelight too quickly To be tested and proven and and through my life's experience when I see like an elder or somebody I see somebody that through time it's not because you were appointed because you had a particular gift or a gift a particular a way of being able to motivate people and captivate an audience and But you also have to have the seasons of life like somebody that would be that have had their children they've had their even in grandchildren. And as an elder, you would have more of the season of life to be able to speak from the wisdom of life in which you've gone through, coupled with the direction and the guidance of the scriptures that give a wholesome, rounded effort to be able to help the young coming up and the young people to be able to have a good sense of direction in the way they should go. Yeah, my take, and we're in the ballpark of the same generation, but you're a little bit older than I am, so you're going to have a healthier view on that moment in history than I do, but I remember it. You know, I was around, I was going to church at that time. Maranatha singers and Maranatha ministries came out of that whole late 80s, early 90s. It was indirected from the Jesus movement. So I have a more limited personal experience with it. And so I can mostly look at it through the rear view mirror from like almost as a historical view, not that much different than if I was examining something that took place in the 1930s. Like I can learn about it, but I wasn't there. I have a little more of a leg up because I was there in the seventies, but not in a way that I could fully process everything that was going on the way that I would today, for example. But my sense of it is, a bit of a mixed bag, the whole movement, because of what you're talking about. I think there were elements within the Jesus movement that those who weren't careful, maybe weren't prepared to navigate the challenges of ministry, weren't mature enough in the faith, perhaps, or whatever, They were set up perhaps to fail, maybe, I don't know, but there were certain elements that seemed to be given over to a form of syncretism, where the church tries to be like the culture. Because if you think about what was going on in that moment, we're talking about the Woodstock era. We're talking about psychedelics and all those sorts of things in the late 60s or very prominent into the early 70s and the folk music move and all these sorts of things. And people were chasing experience and the rock and roll music wasn't quite filling the void anymore and the LSD acid drops weren't filling the void anymore. and all of the wild, free, orgiatic sex wasn't enough anymore, and they wanted a new experience, and there were certain elements within that movement. They were like, oh, we'll give you an experience, and it became more about the emotionalism and the experience and the spectacular, and a little bit less about, in certain circles, about the discipleship. I think the elements that were good have been good. We're glorifying Christ's name, we're proclaiming the gospel. Those who got plugged into good, faithful Bible churches were discipled. and then there were other elements that weren't so good. I think that we, here we are all these years later, like 50 years later, I think we're living with the echoes of both of that. Because I think we still see it today. We've got some churches that either sprang from that movement or were inspired by that movement, one or the other, that are really solid for all the right reasons, and others that aren't quite so solid because of all the kinds of wrong reasons. And I'm bringing all that up as a setup because I think That's my take of the, and I'm going to call it the so-called revival, and I'll explain that in a minute, with Asbury. Is it Asbury or Ashbury? I don't know for sure. I think it's Asbury. Asbury, I believe. But that doesn't matter. But everybody, I think, knows what I'm talking about. It is. is that a revival or is it a good thing and there's been mixed there's been some people in very critical really if you pay attention to online i mean really critical and there's other people that are just hog wild in support of it it's the best thing ever and i think it's probably i'm not gonna say it's somewhere in the middle I think it's both. Kind of like the Jesus movement from the 1970s, it's a mixed bag, and I think there's good things that happened at that college and seminary campus, and I think there are some things that, you know, weren't the best things, but could Could God, well, could. Is God moving even in those situations? Absolutely, God moves in all situations. My concerns with the Asbury thing is, I think that some of the people were there for the experience because, oh, there's this happening, it's historic, I want to be a part of it. It's at a school that has a reputation for trying to almost manufacture these sorts of things. They on average have a quote-unquote revival there like every 12 years over the last hundred years or so. Like it's something that they try to... And I'm not saying they manufactured this, but I think once the students, the first, you know, dozen and a half students to stay late after a chapel service to pray and fellowship longer, I think the administrators of the church, who are always looking for an opportunity to try to spur a quote-unquote revival, saw an opportunity and at that point started to invite people to come and it became a borderline, possible anyway, manufactured event as opposed to just a true move of the Spirit. doesn't mean God couldn't still move in it. So I've got some suspicions, but you know what? There were some great testimonies shared, and there was a lot of praise and worship taking place, and there was authentic prayer. I don't think that some of the teaching that was coming from the front was consistently biblical. But I think that was because there were people who maybe weren't as mature and didn't maybe were put up front Before they really should have been maybe in ten years. They would say things differently and better than they did I think we all have yeah, you know, we've our environment as we grow in the Lord there's things that I believed when I first got saved because I was just like this sponge and that whatever book I read or whatever it happened had Jesus on it and I'm like, oh, okay, you know? But over the years, my position has changed. Even my theology has been adjusted over the years on things. But what we have to be careful about and what I see is when, because the internet is the vastness and there's so many phones, there's so much recording, there's so much interviews and things that are going on, it's almost like a 360 view and what particular view from some person's particular phone and you're getting a interview, unless you're there in person to actually judge it, or to not judge it in a negative way, but to test. To make a discernment. To make a discernment and test and see what is there. Now, I knew of a couple ministries that we know and trust, and that their leadership is in a sound biblical way, where they had representatives go make observations about this particular event and from what they could see and tell and discern in that limited amount of exposure that it didn't seem like I'm gonna mention a couple of things that have happened in the church's past Brownsville I'm sorry not Brownsville excuse me I miss it the Brownsville down in Texas the Texas I'm saying again the down in Florida the the the revival that happened with The Gosh, I'm at a loss for words right now Todd Bentley all that that stuff and then you got Toronto the Toronto Blessing Movement, and there was a lot of... Was it Bradenton, maybe? I don't know. So, in these two movements, there was a lot of the emotionalism, a lot of the manufacturing, a lot of attributing to the Holy Spirit, when really it was not. Almost the power of suggestion would allow people to go on, and it was very controversial. In the Asbury Movement, or the move of God, or the touch, or whatever, was not that emotional from what I've seen or looked at. But I have to be very critical in the sense that I'm going off a second or third hand of somebody who tapes something and giving their commentary. So I think for us to judge and discern or be critical, it's gather your information and reliable sources and pray and say, God, what is authentic and what have you given and what is man-made? And what is, because you know, the movement that came out of the Jesus movement, I mean, Katharine Kuhlman. Okay, I mean, that was very emotional, very out there. And they were looking for the signs and wonders. Sid Roth, he came out of the Jesus movement. And if you know anything about that particular ministry, Yeah, he has a TV show on cable systems called Supernatural. Supernatural, correct. And so from a biblical standpoint, there's some real problems with what he actually attributes to the Holy Spirit and certain gifts and different things. So we have to pray, and please forgive me for not being quite so accurate on the two statements there, but there are things that have been manufactured by man, and yet even in then, you can hear that there are people that have been touched, but at the same side, there's people that have been devastated and hurt by it. So we have to. Yeah. So it sounds like you and I are probably of like mind on this. Um, if somebody says, do you think it was good or do you think it was bad? And my answer is yes. I think there were some elements that weren't good. but those can be corrected, and God can still work in and through those. But I think there were elements that were excellent as well, and we should celebrate those, and we should praise God for them, and we should be praying that these young people who had maybe mostly inexperience, but because of that experience, are going to end up getting plugged into a Bible-believing church, and they will be discipled, and that experience will turn into a deeply-rooted, authentic faith, and not just some fun thing that they did for a week or two on the college campus, and it's just something they can check off as another cool thing they did. that happens too often, and so that's the, I think there's a legitimate concern there, but does that mean that's going to be the story time will tell? But I mentioned before, I use the quote-unquote revival. And the reason for that, because I've had people ask me the very specific question, you know, ask Barry, do you think it was, you think it's a revival? And I don't know that the Church is equipped to know how to answer that question, because revival, like Trinity, is a word that is not in The Bible. Now, the Church has spent centuries clarifying what we mean by the Father, Son, Holy Spirit, and what that identity is and isn't. We've got very careful language, and we can articulate it, and understanding that there is what we would call a Trinity or a Triune God or a Godhead kind of a thing is Orthodox, solidly Biblical teaching, Some people don't like using any words that are not in the Bible. Okay, fine, but we need to be able to communicate and articulate what the Bible is teaching, and so sometimes you come with a label that encapsulates an entire system for thought. So I'm fine using the Trinity, but revival doesn't have that advantage. We haven't had a bunch of historic church councils and a bunch of Danvers statements and Nashville statements on these are the signs and symptoms of a true authentic revival. We don't know how to define this. Is that a revival? I don't know because I don't know for even a hundred percent sure that revival as we sometimes think about it is even a biblical category. Repentance is a category. a move among a group of people that have a heart to return to God? So is it a return to God? Is it a moment of group repentance? Those are categories we could have a conversation about. Revival, I don't even know how to define. Maybe you could help me. How should we define revival? Okay, part of it is the blind man's head. All's I know is I was blind, and now I can see, okay? There was a definite, authenticated, first-hand witness of a miracle that Jesus did, and there was absolute fruit behind that. And the man spoke truth in such a way that he even said, you know, when the Pharisees came, and they said, well, go ask my parents. They're, you know, or no, I'm sorry, the parents said, go ask the son. You know, he's of age. And so it's, The point is, um, when you see biblical affirmation or biblical miracles, uh, in these movements, we have to be really careful that we don't say a miracle because that could mean different things to different people. And, you know, one of the things we're admonished as believers is to be very accurate as a true witness and not to embellish things to make it look more sensational. Because then comes the time when the people in the world will come and verify facts, verify the actual things that were said and find out that there might have been misrepresentation or dishonesty or whatever. And that'll be close to the last word. The one thing I want to say is if you're wondering if that was a revival or not, I have a better question for you. Where's the revival? Where's the evidence of the revival in your life? That's a much better question. Think about that as we wrap up the show. This is the Faith Debate. I want to once again thank my good friend, Stephen Yerger with the Shabbat Gathering in Adams County. I'm Troy Skinner with the Household of Faith in Christ online at HouseholdofFaithinChrist.com. Thank you so much for listening. We'll be back at this again with you about 167 and a half hours from right now. Until then, God bless.