And welcome, my friends, to the Generations broadcast. Kevin Swanson with you today as well. Adam McManus is with me. He is the host of TheWorldView.com, our five minute news update from a distinctively biblical perspective that we air every weekday. Adam, welcome to the program. Good to have you here. Thank you. We're enjoying lots of rain down here in San Antonio, which is highly unusual. My lawn has never looked so green. It looks like Colorado. Well, you know, you can water your lawn as well, but it's good to get it directly from God. That's right, I prefer that. Today we're going to get back to popular culture, and this is a Worldview News and Review program in which we're going to come back to do some commentary on an important development that occurred in Christian contemporary music. Now, we want to cover the pop culture from time to time, largely because most of us have some interaction with it, whether it be secular or Christian. And in this case, we're going to revisit what's going on with CCM and the Newsboys, but I was somewhat involved in Christian contemporary music as a disc jockey and also as a host for certain CCM bands that would come to town on the central coast of California in the 1980s, including guys like Randy Stonehill, Phil Kage, and several other musicians. But it's been a pretty rough ride. Think back in the 1980s and 1990s, Larry Norman, Randy Stonehill, the divorces, the adulteries, the sexual sins that were going on during that period of time. World Magazine would cover those stories on occasion. So we had a bad start, and then you had the Amy Grant-Sandy Patty thing. We'll get back to that in just a moment. But now we have this late-breaking news concerning the Newsboys. And this, by the way, is not the first time that the Newsboys have had something of a scandal connected to their band. In 1997, after the Take Me to Your Leader tour, Newsboys lead singer John James announced he'd be leaving the band. And by 2007, took 10 years, he finally revealed the actual reason for leaving the band was a drug and alcohol addiction. So that was in the 1990s. Now fast forward into 2005, 2006. And the Newsboys lead singer Michael Tate has confessed to having led a double life. So we got that on, I think it was a social media post. But then also there's this lengthy investigative report released from the Julie Roys organization alleging drug abuse and the sin of homosexuality or some form of homosexual activity on the part of Michael Tate. And the report included multiple testimonies of scandalous behavior that dates all the way back to 2005. Michael Tate was a founding member of DC Talk, and that was a big, big, big Christian contemporary band from the 1990s. And the two bands, both DC Talk and the Newsboys, have collectively pulled together 20 Dove Awards and 40 Grammys. So they're not you know, insignificant bands. They've been around for a very long time. In fact, the Newsboys group was featured in a couple of the films, the God's Not Dead films. I think we watched one or two of those, and if I'm not mistaken, the Newsboys were featured in those films. That's right. In fact, their actual singles that were released from those films enabled them to get a billboard fame and notoriety and bigger album sales because of it. Right. But this is a big deal, and this is a devastating news for the newsboys. Again, not the first scandal. CCM has been a rough ride. We've had some pretty tough stuff coming out of the top stars from the contemporary Christian music business since the 1970s, really all the way back to Larry Norman Randy Stonehills and those guys. But now, wow, this one's got some legs to it. It's going to shake up the industry to some extent. Michael Tate has come himself from a rather large family. He has five sisters and three brothers. He's never been married to my knowledge. And there have been accusations now, fairly well documented, in this Royce report written by Jessica Morris dated June 4th, 2025, entitled Former Newsboy's Frontman Michael Tate Accused of Sexual Assault, Grooming, and Substance Abuse, dating back to 2004. The essence of it, three different men in 2004, 2010, and 2014 have been groomed and assaulted, respectively. Two of them alleged that Tate assaulted them while they were intoxicated and asleep, typically about 20 years younger than Tate. There was about that much of an age difference And they feared that they would be blacklisted in the Christian music industry if they said something, which is why it is coming out rather belatedly now. Tate just actually jumped in on this and submitted a confession. I pulled this off a news story from Fox News just an hour ago, Adam, and here it is. Tate wrote, this is a quote from Tate, recent reports of my reckless and destructive behavior including drug and alcohol abuse and sexual activity are sadly largely true. For some two decades I used and abused cocaine, consumed far too much alcohol, and at times touched men in an unwanted sensual way. I'm ashamed of my life choices and actions and make no excuses for them. I will simply call it what God calls it sin." So, you know, on the basis of one or two or three witnesses, now the facts have been established. So there's no question whatsoever that this is a major scandal that is affecting the Christian industry. I mean, think about how many Christian churches rely upon CCM as the basic cultural form of expression that the modern evangelical church has used. Now, I'm not saying this is every church, but in general, I would say a large proportion of the evangelical church in America is connected to these sorts of musicians. And so, I mean, I think I'm thankful that he's coming forward, he's saying it's a sin, you know, we're going to pray and trust that he's going to find forgiveness and cleansing and release from the bondage of this horrible sin in the Lord Jesus Christ, because really that's it. The gospel is here to set the captives free from these sins, It appears He has not been set free at this point, there's been addictions involved and other things, and these are serious, serious sins and we're trusting that by the grace of God He will find the true gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ, repent of His sins and be cleansed of this and find liberty. and freedom from the bondage of these sins in Jesus Christ. And that's the gospel message. But whatever the case, this is more sordidity, so to speak, from the Christian music industry. And I think it's a shame. It's a horrible, horrible thing. And it hasn't just affected Michael Tate. This has been something that's come along through the decades. Well, the man who has come forward, uh, 22 years old at the time in September, 2010, uh, his real name is not Steven, but according to this article, they're calling him Steven. At the time he had been playing DC talks, Jesus freak on repeat. And, uh, Tate seemed to take a special interest in him, met him backstage. They briefly talked. Uh, he took them out, they played, I think it was darts and, uh, had had dinner and then increasingly kind of love bombed him just spending all this time texting back and forth or calling back and forth. And, um, the bandmates thought initially he was kind of mentoring this young man because there was such a big age gap. He was 40 something and this guy was 21. But then as it turned out, uh, he was staying over at Tate's house. Tate had a family living with him. So at one point when this person had been given a number of drinks by Michael Tate, he woke up and Tate was kissing him and grabbing him and appropriately. Uh, he remembers specifically what time it was. It was four 30 in the morning. He knew he had to get out before 6 00 AM when the family that was living with Tate. The kids would start getting up and get ready for, you know, going off to school. Um, and there were, um, other incidents as well of, you know, basically grooming young men who were impressed with his musical credentials and the fact that he was a star of sorts on the stage. And he took advantage of that, plied them with alcohol. and touch people inappropriately, and that's the gist of what this article states. Well, as it turns out, these are sins of homosexuality. Abomination before God, severe, severe descriptions found in places like Leviticus 18, Leviticus 20, I think 1 Corinthians 6, Romans 1. This is a severe sin and it's a smear on the reputation of this band, but more so it's a smear upon the reputation of Jesus Christ. And now the most popular Christian singers of all time are these. Now, this is based upon number one albums on the basis of the CCM industry over a period of about 50 years. By a long shot, the most popular Christian singer of all time is Amy Grant. No question about it. Number two is Lauren Daigle. Number three is Sandy Patti. Number four, Kanye West. No. 5 and 6, Kirk Franklin and Michael W. Smith. So those are your top six most popular Christian singers of all time, based on No. 1 albums. I think it's either Billboard or based on the Dove Awards, but either way, you're looking at the strongest and most popular singers who really set the standards for the rest of the industry. The people on the top of the pyramid affect the rest of the industry. In terms of bands, the biggest bands for album sales and for number one on Billboard Christian genre is DC Talk, Jars of Clay, and the Newsboys. Those are the biggest selling bands in CCM history. Now, those bands either wrapped up in homosexuality or they've endorsed it. So that's the shameful thing about it. These are the biggest bands. You think about Amy Grant and Gary Chapman all the way back into the 1980s and 1990s. Chapman was hooked on drugs. He was arrested again on a DUI in 2005. Gary Chapman claimed eight Dove Awards, four number one songs, a multiple charge, three Grammy Award nominations, and three years as a host of TNN's Primetime Country in 1996. That's Gary Chapman. Amy Grant has six Grammys, 22 Dove Awards, Now, Amy Grant and Vince Gill carried on a romantic relationship in the 1990s while she was still married with Gary Chapman, including passing notes with each other throughout the 1990s. Vince Gill finally divorced his wife in 1997. Amy Grant moved out of the house in 1999. and Amy Grant and Vince Gill married each other in the year 2000. So that was basically the major CCM movers and shakers and what was happening in their lives between, I'd say, 1989 and 1999 or 2000. Well, and Amy Grant and Lauren Daigle have spoken on this issue of homosexual behavior. Perhaps we're going to get to that after the break, but I want to make sure we address it. Yeah, we'll hit that in just a second, but also Sandy Patti was big in the 1980s and 1990s. She had an extramarital affair with her backup singer Don Peslis, who was married at the time. So Patti divorced her husband in 1993 and married Peslis in August of 1995. So that was the sordidities of the Christian contemporary music business in the 1990s. So, you know, the 1980s were tough, but the 1990s were tough. Amy Grant, Sandy Patty. In 2014, lead singer for Jars of Clay came out in favor of same-sex marriage. And then in 2018, Lauren Daigle was interviewed by Ellen Degenerate. And her comment was, when she was asked if homosexual behavior was a sin, She responded. I can't answer that in a sense. I have too many people that I love and they are homosexual I can't say one way or the other I'm not God that that was her response in 2018 and then the other I'm just going through the top the top singers the people who have sold the most albums and Amy Grant, Lauren Daigle, Sandy Patty, Kanye West, Kirk Franklin. I'm going through the list here, so let's get down to Kirk Franklin now. He's like number five on the list of all-time album sales in the CCM business. Well, in 2021 and 2022, Kirk Franklin finally came out in support of homosexuality and his son's bisexuality. He said, quote, a lot of people that maybe profess Christianity, they have views that are not even Biblio-centric. It's their personal views that they do not understand, sometimes maybe the biology of homosexuality, and so they want to find a scripture to try to justify their homophobic views. So that was Kirk Franklin's comment in 2022. On the question of homosexuality, again, backing off on the position that homosexuality was a sin against God, or a homosexual activity, or bisexual activity, is sinful. In 2023, Amy Grant explained why she endorsed homosexual wedding for her niece to People magazine, quote, I love my family, I love these brides, they're wonderful, our family is better and you should be able to be who you are with your family and be loved by them. So that was her quote that she gave to People Magazine explaining why she had endorsed the homosexual wedding of her niece to People Magazine. So there they are. These are the biggest stars of the CCM business and it's interesting to me Adam, that most of this pro-homosexual, you know, position taken by the Kirk Franklin's, Amy Grant's, the Lauren Daigle's of the world, has just surfaced in the last couple of years. You know, it reminds me of Joel Osteen on Larry King. I mean, Larry King, who was a not very attentive Jew in terms of his religious convictions, was at least aware of what Christianity was supposed to be about and what The Bible did teach, uh, who, who do Jews go to hell? Do Muslims go to hell? He asked Joel Osteen pointedly on that. And he said, well, you know, we'll let God sort it out. Well, what about homosexual behavior and, and all that? Well, you know, I'm not going to be the one to judge. God's the judge. Joel Osteen knows Lauren Daigle, Amy Grant, Michael Tate. They all know. The problem, I think, is the bigger picture here is that too many Christians are just not in the Word of God, and while they probably are well aware that God has designed us for a specific sexual function with our spouse who's the opposite gender in marriage, I think they are willingly turning a blind eye just for the sake of being popular. And so, uh, the church once again is caving to the culture. Amy grant knows better. Lauren bagel knows better. Michael Tate knows better, but, um, their own sin, uh, in the case of Amy grant and her, uh, affair outside of marriage, Michael Tate in his homosexual activity and the grooming of these young men, um, and Lauren Daigle's awareness of people who are battling these issues. You know, she doesn't want to step on any toes. She doesn't want to really be specific about what the scripture does indeed teach for fear of offending someone that might perhaps otherwise buy her album. I mean, she's got a very great talent. They all do that God has given them, but God doesn't want them to use that talent to do something that is in opposition to what his own word teaches. The biggest CCM stars of the last four years will be Lauren Daigle, Kanye West, and Carrie Underwood. We already talked about Lauren Daigle and her waffling on the question of homosexuality being a sin. Kanye West, a big, big guy in 2020, 2021, 2022, probably got more sales than anybody else with maybe the exception of Lauren Daigle. Well, in 2024 he claimed to be God himself, so he's claiming deity for himself, and he says he has issues with Jesus, and he has effectively walked away from anything Christian. And then you have Carrie Underwood. She's actually got some of the number one albums of the last three to four years. And as you know, Carrie Underwood's been speaking out in favor of homosexual marriage since well before Obergefell. We're talking about 2012. She was advocating homosexuality in the nation. Her Love Wins song of 2018 became something of a gay anthem. She told Rolling Stone that she believes all humans are inherently good. Just because someone is different doesn't mean they're bad. So that's her comment on her song Love Wins and her support for homosexual marriage that goes back to 2012. Now here's my question before I take the break. In that, six to eight of the most popular CCM artists of all time, most popular bands, and the most popular stars, all the way back to Amy Grant, Lauren Daigle, Kanye West, Carrie Underwood, these are the big, of the bigs, CCM artists of all time. Given that they themselves have given way to homosexuality or adultery or some form of a divorce, illegitimate divorce, et cetera, they excuse it or they endorse it. Does this affect the fan base? The fact that they are at the top of the pyramid and they have capitulated to embracing adultery or homosexuality, either by participating in it themselves or endorsing it publicly. Either way, do you think, Adam, that this affects their fan base? And people have come to love their stuff, they love their music, they follow these stars. does this affect the fan base? Do you think that they are influential in softening the perspective of the evangelical crowd in America on the issue of sin, and that Jesus came to save us from this, and actually the gospel itself? I thought initially when you asked, will it affect their fan base, meaning that would their sales go up or down, but you mean will it affect the actual biblical teaching that we know to be true, will it water it down? Yes, I think the latter. Referencing Kanye West, I mean, he is in a whole different category. I think no one would disagree with my analysis that he has some major mental issues. He perhaps is bipolar. A lot of what he says doesn't even make a hill of beans worth a cent. And he's just a very volatile individual. Carrie Underwood, I would not classify. I don't know if you saw her on a contemporary Christian music chart per se, but I would classify her more pop country. She has done some crossover things. I know she did a big Christmas duet with Michael W. Smith. the name of which escapes me, but I wouldn't call her a Christian artist per se. But in terms of your question, will the influence of these major artists and bands that have compromised the gospel of Christ in accepting the sin of homosexual behavior in particular, Yes, I think that does trickle down. I mean, Gallup himself says nearly 70% of Americans have no problem with homosexual marriage. Uh, that is unheard. I mean, I just remember when I started out as a talk show host, when I was 22 years old and Durham, North Carolina, that, that number at the time in 1990 was probably something around 20%. It's tripled. Now it's more than tripled. Now it's, it's really pretty shocking. Well, I will say on Carrie Underwood, her recent albums, My Gift and My Savior, were distinctively Christian albums, quote-unquote. But she didn't start at her, her lane didn't start out that way, but that's where she, she ended up songs like hallelujah. Uh, I'm thinking, uh, she was on the charts with, uh, songs like tears of gold. Uh, there's number of hymns that she included on some of our recent albums. And so, you know, How great thou art amazing grace just as i am victory in jesus blessed assurance the old rugged cross oh how i love jesus away in a manger come all you faithful. A lot of artists do christmas albums yeah i don't know all is well she with michael w smith. And this goes back to 2014. So she was, yes, somewhat of a crossover artist, but taking in the awards and leading in some of the charts that you're picking up on CCM station. So I would say, you know, hey, these are the leading stars for Christian contemporary music of the 2020s. And there are some exceptions. Michael W. Smith, Stephen Curtis Chapman, lesser knowns like Michael Card, far less popular, but some of these artists so far have not endorsed homosexuality, nor have they demonstrated any kind of homosexual behavior, or cheated on their wives, or anything of that sort. So you have a couple of exceptions to the rule, but again, at the top of the charts, where we have the leading stars of the 1970s, 80s, 90s, and 2000s, scandals pretty much dominate. or at least some capitulation to the sin of homosexuality? Well, it just underscores the desperate need for the gospel, for repentance, and for your clarion call that people come to faith in Christ or repent of their having turned their back on God and get right with Him, if for no other reason than their own eternity, but also because they're role models. And millions of young people and tweens, like my daughter, Mercy, and son, Honor, who are 13 and 15, respectively, I mean, they are being influenced by the likes of the very people we've been discussing. So I guess we throw a flag on the play. We have to say, hey, this is a serious issue. And I guess what surprised me, Adam, was that it's almost all of them. I'm looking at the most popular CCM artists of the last 30, 40 years in terms of album sales, in terms of number one positions on the billboard charts for Christian music, et cetera, et cetera. And I'm finding that almost without exception, with maybe the exception of Michael W. Smith and Stephen Curtis Chapman, the rest of them, as far as I can tell, the rest of them are bound up in these scandals and are bound up in compromise and concession on the issue of homosexuality. I think a sad commentary on the decline of Christianity in the 1970s, 80s, 90s, and 2000s. In fact, I got to thinking in terms of historically It was the 1400s that would probably be something like what we're experiencing right now. I tried to think, was there any other time in history in which there were so many scandals? Of course, you know, we can throw in all of the scandals of child abuse and all of the crazy homosexual activity on the part of the Catholic Church and certain parts of the Protestant Church, including Michael Tate, but you have to go back to the 1400s. The 1400s was a very bad time, just prior to the Reformation. Our present day, I think, looks something like the 1400s. If you lived in the 1400s, you would have thought it to be normal because you lived there, but it wasn't. It was accessible. Looking back, we know it was accessible. Popes conducting extramarital affairs, having multiple illegitimate children, as in the case of Pope Alexander VI, probably the worst of all popes, the worst of the Borgias, of course. And he was Pope between 1492 and 1503. He also gave Spain the permission to enslave the natives, much like the Doom de Versus that was issued in 1452 for Portugal. But Pope Alexander VI is probably the worst of the worst. And history will look back, I think, on these years, as we look back on the 1490s, as extraordinarily evil, in which extremely evil things were happening with some of the most important movers and shakers in the Catholic Church at the time, paving the way for a reformation. And you need to look at this period of time, I think, through the lens of history. Where we are today, extremely bad time for the church. The wheels are off of this thing. But you say, well, there's no pope today. No, the popes are the pop stars. Okay, pope, pop star, get it? Pope, pop star. You know, the popes are the pop stars who are the influential people that influence the millions, if not tens of millions of people that look up to them. So the popes of the church, the people who lead the church, are the Amy Grants of the church, Kirk Franklin, Carrie Underwood, Lauren Daigle, Sandy Patty, and the Newsboys. And these guys lead. It's not the pastors that lead the culture. It's not parents who lead the culture anymore. Pop stars lead the culture unless you decide that the pop stars are not going to lead my culture. I mean, you can decide that. You can say, well, the pop stars are not going to lead my culture. But unless you say, I'm not going to be led by the ideologies, the attitudes, and the cultural expressions of these pop stars, unless you conclude that as a family or as a church, then friends, they're the popes. They're the people leading with the ideologies and the life and the doctrine that evidently we're supposed to emulate. And I think it also underscores the desperate need for the pulpits of America to become aflame with righteousness, as de Tocqueville once said in his famous book. I mean, that is the case in some exceptions to the rule, but on balance, too many pastors, even those in biblically-based churches that believe in John 14, 6, that Jesus is the only way to heaven, they will not address what biblical principles are at play in all of the issues that face us as a country, from abortion to the homosexual issue to transgenderism, divorce on down the line. Also, what's interesting, I just make this comment offhand, is that the list of pop cultural leaders in the Christian Church today, almost exclusively women pop stars, women pop theologians, and maybe an occasional homosexual, but generally speaking, the trajectory of women-led pop theologians is probably going to be a downgrade. I mean, that's just, it's not sustainable. This kind of stuff doesn't sustain. So keep that in mind. My encouragement, let's get off the merry-go-round, develop a cross-generational culture in your home, in the church where grandparents, parents, children attending the same church, singing the same music, et cetera. And here's the deal. You can't be loved by the world, be loved by God. You can't love the world and love God at the same time. John 15, eight said, the world hates you. You know that it hated me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. So the world is going to hate us if we condemn sin. Now if I get an interview with Ellen Degenerate, She's probably going to ask me if homosexuality is a sin. I've been asked that, by the way. I was asked that on Channel 6 here in Colorado. I was on an interview with Bill Jack, who was right next to me. And the interviewer on Channel 12 turned to me and said, I suppose you think homosexuality is a sin and that homosexuals are going to hell. And I said, not if they repent of their sins and trust in Jesus like the rest of us need to do. If that be the case, they get to go to heaven. And he was pretty upset with that comment. But that's how I responded, and of course the world hated me for it. He got up and stomped out, would not even shake my hand at the end of the interview. Or as something of a debate, I guess it was. There's two people on the other side of us, but it was the moderator that was upset with me. You know, the moderator was the guy jumping into the fray and throwing stuff at me. But that's the way the world treats Christians who stand up for righteousness. So I understand what it is to be hated by the world, Anybody who condemns homosexuality or adultery, illegitimate divorce, fornication, drunkenness, worship of money, materials, self-sex, whatever, they're going to be hated by the world. These are the world's favorite sins, you know. But Jesus came to die on the cross for our sins, because sin is a very, very terrible thing, and these are terrible sins. But praise God, Jesus came to save us from these sins. But the world doesn't want to hear that because they say, hey, we love our sin. We don't want anybody to save us from this sin. And that's ultimately why they reject Jesus. And they reject us because we stand for righteousness and we stand for the gospel, Adam. Right. And I'm glad we do because that's what we were created for. We were created for a right relationship with God. And, you know, he's promised that he'll not send a flood again, but he, he can judge this world before his second coming. and before we slip into eternity in all kinds of other ways. And I want to be on the right side of God, don't you? I sure do. And by the way, by the way, let me just say this towards the end of this program. We're talking about the Newsboys and the terrible, terrible scandal that has ripped apart this band that's been really at the forefront of Christian bands for many years, 15, 20 years. So I saw the Newsboys in concert at a Ted Cruz for President fundraiser in Des Moines, Iowa. This would have been back in 2014, 2015, somewhere in there. 2015, that's when you had your conference. 2015, right. I was out there at a Ted Cruz for President fundraiser and the Newsboys showed up, okay. So yeah, I had to walk out of it. There was something wrong with this. In my estimation, I was not happy. I was not a happy camper. There was like this homosexual gay thing in dress and mannerisms. And I think it was largely Tate that bothered me. Yeah. As I recall, the music was out of control. These guys were presented like gods on the stage. That was a problem for me. The whole set was wrong. They lifted up in the audience, lights flashing all around them, et cetera. And I thought, ah, this is giving man too much glory. So I think that was probably the thing that bothered me more than anything else. Or you're saying that you felt Michael Tate was effeminate in his mannerisms? Yeah. I would say that's the way I took it. I even saw him backstage with Ted Cruz. So I was backstage with the Newsboys, standing next to the Newsboys, talking to Ted Cruz at the Ted Cruz for President fundraiser, and it was a huge concern for me. I'm going to close with this because it reminds me a little bit of David Wilkerson. So David Wilkerson, this is probably one of the most poignant moments in the history of modern Christianity. This created a huge amount of controversy for David Wilkerson in 1987. He wrote about this later on, and this is his own testimony as to what happened. It was the situation was at this concert, the CCM kind of concert in 1987, and he started yelling, Ichabod, Ichabod, in the middle of this thing. Listen to his testimony, just for a second. Suddenly smoke was billowing out of smoke machines, the pounding beat was turned up to a frenzied pitch, eerie lights began flashing, the musicians stood like phantoms rising from a murky swamp. It was ghostly, weird, strange, and the crowd went wild. They seemed to love it. In the same festival, wide spiked hair groups entertained with painted faces prancing about like homosexual peacocks. At first I couldn't believe what I was seeing on the stage. I said out loud, this can't be happening at a Christian festival. They can't do this to my Jesus. These people can't be this blind. The leaders of this youth ministry can't be so undiscerning. Oh God, what has happened to your church that its leaders, its people can't see the evil of this abomination? Suddenly I was on the ground. on my back weeping and sobbing and groaning in the spirit. I sat up and took another look at the stage. I was horrified by what I saw in the spirit. I saw demonic images rising from the stage. I heard Satan laughing, laughing at all the blind parents, the blind shepherds, the blind youth, the backslidden church. It was an overt manifestation of Satan worse than anything I've ever seen on the streets of New York. Remember he was the, he was the cross and switchblade guy. Okay. I stood to my feet, literally shaking with the fear of God, consumed with the sense of His holy wrath against such wickedness. I rushed into the crowd, crying at the top of my voice, Ichabod! The glory of the Lord has departed! Ichabod! I ran through the crowd, pushing aside chairs, weeping, shouting at the top of my voice, Ichabod! This is satanic! Stop! God is grieved! I was mostly ignored and I think most thought I was a crazy lunatic. I doubt anybody knew who I was. The musicians could not hear me and the crowd was too tight to allow me near the stage. I wanted to get to the microphone and cry like an Elijah. This is vomit on the table of the Lord. Who are your teachers that you should be so blind, so worldly, so deceived? What kind of blasphemy is this?" Well, that was the end of David Walker said, okay. Nobody paid much attention to him after that. But you know what? I think there was something prophetic about some of these statements made. Now, I'm not throwing away all the music ever written after 1950. Please, people understand this. There's some good stuff out there. I get it. But is it possible, is it possible there's something evil, there's something bad going on as well? And Adam, let me ask you this question. Shall we be better at discerning this stuff? We need to be. Yeah. And his claim, his use of that word Ichabod is an interesting one because it means without glory, where is God's glory in this? And, and it appears as though in that concert, uh, and I've spent a Christian concerts too, that the glory that is manifest is not the Lord's glory, but the glory of the group or the glory of the singer. They're walking a very dangerous tightrope in many ways, because there are all kinds of. understandable accolades, people are appreciative of their music, their talent, the lyrics, but if it goes to their head and if they don't reflect that back to the Lord and give Him the glory, they're taking it for themselves. And it reminds me of, you know, how did Paul react when they, you know, basically called him a God in the New Testament? He said, Oh no, they're ripping his clothes. Don't do that. The Lord is God. I am just a man. And the other guy, Herod, that, you know, the voice of a god, the voice of a god. That did not end well. In that case, he was eaten out by worms. Yeah, let's not go there. Okay. All right. That's the way one of the concerts went, you know, roughly in 8040. It was not, it did not end well. Well, friends, that wraps up this edition of the Generations broadcast. And I encourage you to my book, The Tattooed Jesus, what the real Jesus would do with pop culture. And I don't answer all of these questions, but I do try to present something of a framework by which to discern. We've got to discern. We've got to discern. We have to be able to discern on these issues. And that's why the book, The Tattooed Jesus, hopefully a wake up call as well to the Christian church. Something to be said for what David Wilkerson testified to in 1987 or whenever it happened. But grab a copy of The Tattooed Jesus at our website kevinswanson.com or generations.org. This is Kevin Swanson and Adam McManus inviting you back again next time as we continue to lay down a vision for the next generation.