Welcome to the Frederick Faith Debate on Frederick's News Radio 930 WFMD. I'm Troy Skinner, I'll be acting as your host and moderator for the next half hour. Frederick Faith Debate is designed to be an open and honest forum for our local religious leaders to share and discuss their views of the truth. In the spirit of Thomas Jefferson who said, the clash of ideas is the sound of freedom, We will seriously wrestle with important ideas, even at the risk of disagreeing with one another. The hope is that through our wrestling we will come to a greater understanding and appreciation of each other. More importantly, we hope that you will develop a better understanding of the truth about the most important issues that face us in the world. This week we're going to talk about the Trinity. What is it exactly? How do you understand it? Our guests talk about that. And I appreciate their boldness in helping to explain this to us. Pastor John Switzer from Cross River Valley Chapel, and Chaplain Chris Jackson from the Good News Jail and Prison Ministry. Well, Troy, you just need to know, coming into this whole thing, that we all saw Trinity on The Matrix. All three movies. So, I mean, what do you need described after that? Well, in all fairness... You know, it occurs to me, as you say that, that there might be somebody listening who does not know exactly what we're talking about when we say the Trinity. So for those who are uninitiated, an orthodox Christian doctrine is that there is one God who exists as three persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, or sometimes referred to as the Holy Ghost. Some have misinterpreted the idea of the Trinity as meaning the Father, Son, and the Mother, meaning maybe the Virgin Mary or somebody like that. Some would accuse Christianity of being polytheistic. How's that for a word for you? Meaning having more than one God. Meaning that the Christians worship three gods. So it has been a point of some contention and controversy. And what makes it such an ongoing point of contention and controversy is that when the average Christian on the street tries to explain what they believe about the Trinity to somebody who doesn't understand or hasn't heard of it or rejects it, They have a hard time logically explaining how it's possible for there to be one God, three persons. Somehow three equals one, one equals three. How is that possible? So over the next, well, we have about 25 minutes left now. You're going to make that all clear for us. Unlikely, unlikely. Now, first of all, have I done a reasonable job in outlining what the Trinity is? Absolutely. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, the word Trinity does not exist anywhere in the Christian Holy Scriptures. The New or Old Testament does not exist. Correct? Correct. It's a word that came up to describe what is in the Bible, what is clearly portrayed in the Bible. Again, one God who exists in three persons at the same time. There's one church that says that God went through phases. first our office the father and then became he's evolving and then became a holy spirit and just a you know i a m okay that's not what we're talking about right that would be on the with the docks that would be unorthodox that was uh... uh... famous pastor darwin the right revolution of god right right right now uh... there's a verse and isaiah fifty-five verses eight and nine says for my thoughts are not your thoughts nor your ways my ways says the lord for as the heavens are higher than the earth so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts Isaiah chapter fifty-five verses eight and nine so we gotta leave room that God can do things differently than we can understand it Which kind of sums up our whole discussion today. Basically we're talking about things that are very hard to understand and that we really see through a glass darkly in every way when it comes to trying to understand how God is three and one and the three can talk to one another and potentially hand the spiritual ball off to one another in scripture and yet there's still one. It's definitely a very... Now I had somebody once share with me a comment that I thought was, I'd never heard it put this way before, but our yearning as humans is to want to be able to get our arms all the way around God. We want to be able to embrace Him completely until our fingers touch, was the way he phrased it. But God is so big and His ways are so above our ways, as the passage you just read, Chris, that we can't ever quite get our arms all the way around God to the extent that our fingers touch. Well, I would say this, though, Troy, if... that yes some of us are trying to get our arms around god uh... i think we only do that because we are sinful and we want to uh... we want to be able to control you know and put everything in a box so that we can be almost somehow bigger than it you know if i can define x then you know i can manipulate the idea in feel like i'm bigger than a in but i think ultimately what we're really yearning for as a God that is way bigger than we could ever understand so that we can finally let go and trust. So I think in sin, you're right, we are always trying to get our hands around it and put God into a box. But I think ultimately the most spiritual thing, the deepest yearning of our heart is exactly the opposite of that. to let go and realize that God is way bigger in that that's exactly what we've needed our whole life. Somebody that is capable of taking responsibility for things that we can't because we're not it. Okay, beyond understanding how it's true, which we will come back to in a minute, different from understanding that it's true is accepting that it's true. So why is it that the Christian should accept that it's true? I'm sure that you have a laundry list of scripture that you could throw at me, but are there a handful of things that can give us confidence that, you know what, there is God the Father, there is God the Son, there is God the Holy Spirit. What are those things that can give the Christian, who maybe hasn't read the Bible as much as they should, confidence that that's true. Are you prepared to kind of answer that question specifically? Alright, so specifically you're asking what are the scriptures that would clearly reveal that there's three different people going on there? Correct. Okay. but i'd like to start off and just from ahead in the race is a understanding of this true you will have a difficult a lot of difficulty understanding the scriptures of the claims jesus made for example uh... i am the bread of life i am the true vine uh... i am the alpha and the omega the beginning and the end jesus makes these claims and god is already made these claims in the old testament and with the holy spirit comes along and uh... he empowers us live the christian life and supposed to teach us all things and uh... he inspired the scriptures uh... unless you understand the trend you accept the trinity no one can fully understand it but unless you accept it and believe it is true you have a lot of difficulty with the scriptures yet you know i i think that for the average person on the street, there needs to be some kind of a practical value to each of the different persons of the Trinity. And I'd like to boil that down first and then identify a couple passages that would deal with, you know, that there are three. The number one thing that I think that we all as humans need to know is that there is some ultimate authority that has the power and ability and will to judge the world into to uh... judge evil and those things they have destroyed a sickness in and those kinds of things that that we need to know for for to be secure in any way at all that there's some god father creator ultimate figure out there that is big enough and powerful enough. So that's the first practical element of the Trinity. The second one is God the Son. We also need to know that that God will somehow help us despite the fact that we've fallen into sin. That he's not just going to sit up there far away and mock us, you're never going to be able to get up here to me, because I'm so righteous and you're not. We need a God that's both transcendent and though can come down and live with us, and knows what it means to suffer with us, and that's God the Son. I don't want a God that just lives far off. I need a God that understands what I've gone through, that understands the suffering, the sickness, the pain from relationships, and that's Christ. Clearly and completely, He's gone through that. But then the last thing is this. I need a God that not only has experienced what I experienced, but can help me to grow and to live my life day in and day out. And that's the role of the Holy Spirit that empowers us, that fills us, and produces fruit in us so that we can be good Christians. And it seems to me that the role of the Trinity, the power, the importance of the Trinity, the practicality of the Trinity is those three things. We need God to be transcendent and powerful and just, but we also need him to have suffered and understand what we've gone through And then thirdly, we definitely need a God that can help us right now to be what we need to be, because we just can't do it on our own. Chris, John was just talking about the three persons of what's sometimes called the Godhead, the Trinity, in very personal terms. And I think that's something that's very important for people to remember, right? That all three persons, because sometimes you would be tempted to say aspects or parts of, but all three persons of the Trinity are personal. They're persons, right? The Spirit isn't a force. It's a person. You can find examples in Scripture where each one has actually spoken. The Father has spoken, Jesus has spoken, the Holy Spirit spoke to Peter. I believe in Acts chapter 10, told him to go down and meet the servants and messengers of Cornelius. We have the creation story of Genesis, let us make man in our image. Now that's a key passage, Chris, because this is the first, you know, God. It says, in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth, and the word there for God is the Hebrew word Elohim, which is the plural form of God. So in the beginning we, God, created the heavens and the earth. And then it says, and I laugh because some people think that it's the royal we when it says it, but God says, let us make man in our image. And then male and female, he created them in the image of God. And the question is, then who's the us in that statement? And again, our understanding from scripture is that that's God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. That's right. That the unity that is the three of them is the image that we were created in. Now you broke out the Bible there for a second. Yes. You mentioned you had a couple of verses. I do. John chapter 16, verse 5, 6, and 7 says this, now I go, this is Jesus talking And he says this, now I go away to him who sent me, that would be God the Father, and none of you ask me where are you going. But because I've said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart, alright? Jesus is leaving, and the disciples are, you know, concerned. They're sad because it's been kind of fun to hang out. with Jesus. I mean, can you imagine? Verse 7, then it says, Nevertheless, I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away. For if I do not go away, the Helper, meaning the Holy Spirit, will not come to you. But if I depart, I will send him, meaning the Holy Spirit, to you. So in that passage, Jesus is saying that he was going to leave the disciples, go to the Father, and that when he gets to the father he's gonna send the holy spirit again there's the three of them got the father got the sun got the holy spirit in the second passes that has meant so much to me uh... is first corinthians Let's see if I get it right. Ah, yes, 1 Corinthians 12, verse 4. And it says this. It says, there are many diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. There are many differences of ministries, but the same Lord, referring to Jesus Christ. And there are diversities of activities, but the same God who works all in all. And again, the point is that, in fact, this is what I find. that there's parts of the church that magnify God the Father, and as a result, they magnify predestination, they magnify grace, they magnify God's sovereign action on the face of the planet. They're magnifying God. It's great. I totally agree with what they magnify, because God has done all those things, and He's working His plan out with power and authority. There are other churches that magnify Christ, and when they do, they tend to magnify evangelism and serving the poor and the outcast. I find this true time and again, that those who magnify Christ, the evangelicals if you will, are all about preaching the gospel and serving the poor, but then there are those that magnify the ministry of the Holy Spirit, and they seem to be all about helping the individual to be healed in their heart, and built up and strengthened so that they can be a strong Christian. And it's interesting that all three of those are extremely important, extremely valuable, but even in the body of Christ, one church will emphasize the Holy Spirit, another one should emphasize, you know, God the Father and His sovereignty, and another emphasize Christ. And ultimately, I think that the church is most unified when we magnify all three of those elements. Absolutely. Which is a powerful thing. for the church to be in unity. I'm going to use this as an opportunity to reintroduce the show. I'm Troy Skinner, acting as the host and moderator of the Frederick Faith Debate on Frederick's News Radio 930 WFMD. You just heard John Switzer, pastor of Crossroad Valley Chapel, speaking, and you've also heard before that the voice of Chaplain Chris Jackson with the Good News Jail and Prison Ministry. John Switzer quoted a couple of passages from the Bible, including something from the Gospel of John. And I'm surprised, something else that the Apostle John wrote uh... you didn't quote which i expected you to not just in the beginning there was no word and the word was you know with god the word was god yeah and then the word became flesh uh... obviously speaking about jesus becoming flesh and that he is also known called the word and the word is a god the word was god uh... and then there's another pat i think it might also be john although i couldn't give you the version that might be able to come up with it where jesus speaks and uh... says dirt that made it not paul Paul talking about Jesus coming and being the life-giving spirit. That Jesus is the life-giving spirit. So he equates Jesus in the spirit as one jesus says the father if you've seen the father use you know if you see me you've seen the father indicating oneness and then paul says uh... you know that jesus is like giving spirit indicating that jesus in the spirit are also one so those are additional supports yet you you could argue that uh... despite every single one of paul's letters ideals with jesus in the spirit of of jesus uh... together so uh... yes the bible says that yes it's in practically all of Paul's letters, yeah. But I was just surprised you didn't use the, you know... Yeah, in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with John. I figured you were for sure going to use that one, because that's the one that pops into my mind. Sure, sure. Which is a great one, yeah. There's another example of the Trinity at the baptism of Jesus. Yes. Jesus is getting baptized. It's a powerful moment. Holy Spirit comes down in the form of a dove and the Father speaks from heaven, this is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased. They're all three, all three persons or personalities of their present at the same time, I like to reemphasize. uh... all serving one purpose yeah glorifying jesus christ yeah all about the work of salvation and a lot of what we've talked about so far has been you know quoting things from the new testament but i think it's important you know uh... john you mentioned at the very beginning in genesis it talks about you know a plurality in creating an our image demonstrating that from the very beginning of the old testament yeah there's a side and there's this idea of there being a trinity and i got had to which i think is a Yeah, and it shows up a couple times there in the first couple chapters of Genesis. It says the spirit was hovering over the waters, and the word for spirit there is the ruach of God, the life-giving breath of God. And then it says he breathed into man the breath of life, which again refers to the ruach, the life-giving spirit of God. And then when Adam and Eve are disciplined, for their sin. Christ is referred to when it says that her seed will bruise your head and you will bruise, the serpent will bruise his heel. It's referring to Christ that one day this man-child is going to come that is going to counteract the effects of sin that Adam and Eve have kicked into gear. So again, the point is you find a trinity all through scripture. It's certainly very pervasive. And getting back to the question we asked earlier, how can we accept the Trinity? How can we believe in it? The best illustration I've ever heard is the example of water. It can exist in three different forms at the same time as steam, as liquid, and as ice. But all three forms, all three states are water. And in the same way, there's one God who exists in three persons at the same time. And that's what we're talking about. Without understanding that, you will have difficulty understanding the scriptures. I think also that a big part of understanding the Trinity is catching a glimpse of what God intends for mankind. Because Christ says that if His words remain in us, we will remain in Him and we will bear much fruit. And He says this, that we will share with Him the unity that He has with the Father. And so the point is not that the Trinity is this exclusive club you know, that they get to be a part of, but that God intends for all of us as mankind to be unified and to walk in that unity with them, not like somehow we'll be gods. That would be a whole other discussion, because that's not the intention there, but that Just like God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit are together and in unity, and they can read one another, they know one another, they know what the other one's doing, they're working in perfect harmony in concert with one another, you know, like a symphony orchestra. You know, they're just accomplishing these things together. God really intends that for all of mankind, and Christ is His answer to that, the great mystery that ties together the disunity on the face of the planet. And to me, again, that's a very practical element of what the Trinity is all about, that it serves as a constant example and reminder to us that God intends for us to not be divided for all of eternity, you know, with wars and hatred and anger, but that we would be unified. for all of eternity. I've heard, and I love the analogy that Chris Jackson shared about the water, and I've heard other analogies that I've liked, maybe not as much as that one, that I can't recall right now. Are there any other of those sorts of worldly analogies that maybe would help somebody understand the trinity that you can recall right now? Some people have said like an egg has a yolk, it has the white, and it has the shell. Some people have said like the uh... the irish uh... three leaf clover that it's it's three but it's one i think saint patrick was one that use that to describe the the trinity uh... there any others that come to your mind example the sun uh... get the heat yet the the ball of the sun itself and then you have the light. Three different objects. But I think all of those examples kind of fail, pale in comparison. They all fall short, right? Yeah, any example you give will fall short because there's nothing like God. He says, who can you compare like me? To whom can you make me equal? He says in Isaiah chapter 40. There is a verse in 1 John chapter 5 verse 7 in the king james version of the bible uh... can basically find the king james and other translations you'll find as a footnote at the bottom and it reads for there are three that bear witness in heaven the father of the word and the holy spirit and these three are one yeah the many argue that that version i'd be in the bible uh... but in all the ancient manuscripts of the greek new testament is there yeah it's there yeah uh... the true in a couple additions of the greek new testament is not there but uh... you know it occurs to me that uh... that islam in particular is uh... very concerned about this idea that you worship many gods instead of just one partially because uh... muhammad himself uh... fought against the idea of polytheism that was pervasive all through the middle east when he was rising to power and and uh... uh... prophesying the things he prophesied. And so he fought against that to say that, you know, God is one. And even the Torah, the Old Testament scriptures that the Jewish people magnify in particular, says, Hear, O Israel, the Lord your God is one. Um, uh, hallelujah. And, uh, the question is, is whether or not, okay, we're worshiping many gods and how is it that God could, could die on the cross, you know, and yet still be God, you know, how is it that he could bear the sin of the world and still be God? And, um, you know, these are all very philosophical questions. I feel like, you know, that again, are attempts on our part to try to figure God out. But, but again, to keep it practical. I just have to ask the question, can we really worship and serve a God that holds himself at a distance from us? You know, like Allah does in scripture. I mean, he's far away and there's just, he doesn't help us to be better. He just, you know, Allah just gives the Quran and you just have to study it and work hard to be better. But in Christianity, Christ, came and bore our sin, paid the price, you know, that was the wages of sin is death, which that in itself, you know, could could take a whole half hour to discuss. But then knowing that the Holy Spirit is here to be with us, OK, it seems kind of weird. How can God be all those things in one? But I think the more important question is, Is there any other God out there that that meets all of our needs? Spiritually that that really hits us right where we need to live and to me that's that's the question I think the average person that's that's walking on the street need Excuse me needs to deal with and in the very first part of what you said there you anticipated a question or not a question But a a comment I was gonna make sure we emphasize and we've been talking an awful lot about the different Persons. Yeah, and it almost begins to sound like you're talking about three gods, but that is not that is not orthodox Christian belief. There is just one God. All of the three persons make up one God. And you're right, I have friends who are Muslim and they'll say, oh, you believe in three gods. No, I don't. Oh, you believe in the Father and the Son and I even heard the Mother and I said, no, the Holy Spirit. But that doesn't mean I believe in three gods. I don't want to make the mistake of so emphasizing the three personhood that we forget that there is just one God. We have time maybe for a closing remark from maybe both of you as long as they're like 30 seconds each. well again uh... jesus's last words on earth was to go and make disciples of all the nations baptizing them in the name of the father and of the sun and the holy spirit that's a perfect example of the trinity and that's the thought and uh... and again if you if you take that verse out and first john chapter five or seven to take that out you still can take with the concept of one god in three-person And I would just say simply that we need all those roles. We need a transcendent God that's all-powerful. We need a God that paid the sins so that we could be reconciled to God. And we need a God that's there with us each and every day by the Spirit. And my final word is going to be something that somebody hadn't thought about before, but God is love. And if God is going to be love, He needs someone to love, so therefore He must have needed to create. And that is not true if you believe in the Trinity, because He has Himself to love. The Father can love the Son and the Spirit, the Spirit can love the Son and the Father, and the Son can love the Spirit and the Father. So He is self-contained and self-existent and doesn't need anything, which I think is a comfort from a Christian view on the Trinity as well. Thank you both for being part of the show again this week. You've been listening to the Frederick Faith Debate on Frederick's News Radio 930 WFMD. Again, if you would like to, if you know somebody who is qualified as a, you know, as a religious leader in the community who would like to be a part of this show, or if you yourself are one, or you have a question about something you'd like us to talk about in this show, please email me at troyskinner at clearchannel.com. Thanks again for listening, and God bless.