Thank you for tuning in to the Forgotten Pew Podcast. We want to help those who sit in the pew each week and are forgotten. We want to help you in your Christian walk as a disciple of the Lord Jesus Christ. So grab your Bible and a cup of coffee and listen to Bob and Caleb chat about discipleship. Welcome to episode 2. Bob, it's good to have you with me again. I'm glad we got a chance to do 2. Yep, absolutely. Yeah, and I'm so glad that our listeners came back and listened. And if you're listening to episode 2 and you go, I didn't know this was episode 2, we encourage you to stop right now. Go back and listen to episode 1. Let's say you're driving and you can't do that. Let's make a small little recap of what we talked about. In episode one, we kind of talked about the definition of our podcast, that this is to help people, to be an encouragement, to be a resource for people. who want to grow deeper in their life, or walk with Jesus Christ, and whether they're in a church that they feel like their church isn't really helping them, or maybe they're in a church and the pastor or somebody else is saying, hey, let's listen to this podcast and let's kind of discuss some of the things and passages. That's what we want to do. We want to help, however. We're certainly not here to replace the church. We know that God didn't call Bob and Caleb in this podcast. He called the local church. And so we just want to be an encouragement, a resource, kind of a help in whatever we can do to process people in their walk. Yeah, and that's really important. And the church is important in the process of disciple-making, right? I mean, Jesus said to the disciples, go and make disciples. And so, in a sense, you can't be a Christian by yourself. You can't live the way that you need to live without the help of other spirit-filled Christians. And that's kind of what we talked about last time was the, just kind of some of the Big overview. This is what a disciple is. It's a committed follower of Jesus Christ. And we kind of discussed that every single believer, man, woman, boy, girl, and yes, I do think boys and girls who are believers can be disciples. They do have some unique challenges, but they can follow and be committed followers of the Lord Jesus Christ. We'll talk later on, there's a whole lot of ministries that help us in the area of discipleship, and that's not limited to just adults. That's right. So that's good. Yeah, and not just to men or just to women. We want everyone to listen to the podcast, and we want to be a supplemental thing to your walk, kind of like a diving board, as it were, but you definitely need you definitely need that local church. And I think also if we are gonna invest in others, we have to have something to invest, and I think that's what the idea of leading and following are all about. Yeah. So yeah, so a disciple is a committed learner, a committed follower to Jesus Christ. One who, as Jesus said, denies himself and picks up his cross daily. Somebody who is committed to helping others grow in their walk with Jesus Christ. And we kind of touched on it on episode one. but we kind of talked about some of these models, right? And we use that word, I use that word really loosely because there's different contexts and there's different ways of talking to people and there's different ways of doing this, but we do see a couple different ways in the New Testament. So Bob, why don't you just talk to us a little bit about Let's just say three. We'll just say three. We'll say there's Jesus, there's Paul, and there's Barnabas. Let's just look at those three. What did they do? What were some of the things that they did? How did they help people be these God-glorifying followers of Jesus. Yeah, I'll just camp on Jesus for a few minutes. I mean, we talked in our first session that he spent at least three years with his disciples. And one of the things that Luke says that I think kind of encompasses Christ's life is he said, a pupil or a disciple is not above his teacher, but everyone after he has been fully trained will be like his teacher. And the reality is Jesus spent those number of years with his disciples, and they walked with him, they had time to see how he encountered life, the things that he taught, certainly the miraculous things he did to show that the power that he had, And just kind of, they hung out with him. And there were things they learned, observed, and I think that's what discipleship's all about. When he said, come follow me, I don't think they really knew what they were in for, but they got a quick education as to what a pupil and a disciple's all about. Yeah, they were with him, it seems like, quite a bit, right? I mean, there was probably a period in the middle where they went back fishing, Peter went back fishing and that, but they were with him. all the time. Yeah, and can I honestly say, I think they learned what to do and what not to do in many respects. They learned what prayer was all about, they learned what worship was all about, they learned what commitment was all about, and probably a host of other things that came with that time. Yeah, and that would have been just fascinating just to be around Jesus, to hear what he said. But like you said, they're probably watching Jesus and Jesus is reacting to the way people are talking and the way that he says something to somebody. And you're just watching how he answers questions, how he interacts with people. And I truly believe that Jesus loved people more than anyone else has ever loved people. And so that would have been really, really fascinating just to watch. What does it look like to really love people and how to handle when there's sin? And how do you love somebody even in the midst of their sin? But yeah, you're right. One of the more interesting accounts is when they were going home, They were going towards their house, because most of the disciples lived up in Capernaum, and they had to go through Samaria, right? And they were doing a pit stop, right? They were stopping at the convenience store, as it were, to get some food and water. They go into town. Jesus is at the well. then Jesus starts talking to the woman at the well, they come out, and you could tell they want to go home, and Jesus goes, there's a ministry here. And what a lesson that would have been, that ministry is here. And that would have been an incredible, incredible lesson to learn. Well, and the other thing you might want to think is that when you go to the full extent of it, there comes a point where the pupil or the learner has to take some things on their own. And I think what's interesting is the account when Jesus sends them out two by two and says, hey, I'm not going with you, you're on your own now. And they got to experience life then and ministry on their own and could come back and report what happened. And Jesus has some interesting words for that, but it was kind of nicely, okay, you've been with me a while now, I'm gonna send you out. And eventually the pupil has to learn and then start investing in other people. Okay. Yeah. Okay. So Jesus is a great example of disciple and of teaching, and that would be through his words, and through his example. Now, there's Paul, right? Yeah, there's Paul. So I think for me, one of those great examples of discipleship and one of those great relationships in the New Testament is Paul and Timothy. Now, Paul had other guys, clearly. I mean, it just wasn't Timothy, but yeah. So what are some of the stuff that Paul did in discipleship of not only Timothy, but the churches? Yeah, definitely. In his travels, his words, boy, I mean, all the epistles are filled with concepts of Paul's discipleship in taking from a church like Corinth, who really was having some real difficulties, and they weren't where they needed to be spiritually, and so he had to develop that relationship with them in such a way that they understood what was not right, to be able to get to what was right. And then other relationships with other churches, as we said earlier, in the Colossae Church, and being complete in Christ, and what does that look like? So, I mean, you can read all of the epistles and you get a great understanding of of Paul's knowledge and his relationship with Christ that was then put out in letter form for us to understand, too. Yeah, so that's probably one of the unique things about Paul's ministry is that he wrote letters to these churches. Though Jesus was probably literate, he could read and he probably could write. Jesus didn't, at least what we have, we don't have anything written from Jesus, but we do have things from the pen of Paul, and so that's interesting. Yeah, so we see his heart through his letters. Yeah, and I think you see indications of that in his relationships with others, like Epaphroditus or Onesimus, the runaway slave that probably didn't know Christ, but for some reason left his master. came under Paul's discipleship, and Paul discipled him, sent him back. Yeah, there were just a number of those relationships. Some relationships grew and went well. Others, unfortunately, as we find in some types, they go the opposite direction. Yeah, so one of the things that's kind of interesting, we'll just focus in on Paul and Timothy for a moment. So Paul's going through on his missionary journey, he goes to a local church and they say, you gotta meet this kid, you gotta meet this young man, really loves the Lord, really is... And Paul immediately recognizes something about Timothy and Paul later indicates that there was some direct revelation involved in this. but kind of talk a little bit about Paul and Timothy's relationship? Because we know quite a bit about that. Paul talks greatly about that relationship. What are some of the aspects of that relationship? Well, I think probably at the foremost is Paul's statement that he was his son in the faith. Okay. That indicates something. There had to be some time invested, almost a father-son relationship, which I think can happen in the discipleship. It doesn't always have to look like that as a father-son. It could be a brother-to-brother that type of thing, but with Paul and Timothy, it was, and there were times where they certainly developed a relationship together, but then there were times where, you know, Timothy was on his own, and in order to be on his own, he had to have learned, and evidently, you know, seems like there may have been some struggles and some definite encouragement, so it wasn't like the discipleship ended at any particular point with Timothy. you know, there was always that constant relationship. Now, it's a little bit different than we might have. We might say, you know, if I've discipled somebody and I send him off to the East Coast, we're out in the West Coast, I don't have that immediate relationship, so I have to find ways to do that. Their day was a little bit more difficult, but there was certainly the investment that happened up front and then it had to continue on. And there was a sense in which Paul seems in this relationship with Timothy, he had to continually encourage him and exhort him and keep him moving forward in that respect. Yeah, it is interesting because there seems to be like distinct phases, right, with Paul and Timothy. So there's that, and even with Jesus, this is probably true too, there seems to be that initial meet, that initial teaching, that initial training on some of the just the basic things is what you need to know. Then there seems to be that moment of I'm going to let you do some of the stuff that I've been doing, and then we'll kind of discuss it, right? So it's kind of like that graduating to a next level, though there's really not that language, but that seems to be, you know, Jesus sent out the disciples, and then Paul would send Timothy to go do here, and Timothy would go here, and then there seems to be a point where Paul goes and Jesus goes, my time with you being this close, close proximity has ended. That doesn't mean that our relationship is severed, but you continue on, like you said. So there seems to be these phases of, okay, now you don't need me as much as you did before. And I think that that image and that metaphor of a father and a son is really kind of important, because that's kind of what discipleship looks like. It's that maturing process. And it seems like there may have been what probably constituted that was the fact that Paul was probably older than Timothy. Yeah, that helps too. Yeah, that father-son relationship might have been there. But yeah, I love that son of the faith because it means that there was a development in Timothy's faith and walk. Certainly, the letters of 1 and 2 Timothy give you really a good glimpse of some of the positive and some of the negative things that Timothy would have to face, and he would have to do it somewhat alone with the Spirit of God. Paul wouldn't be there to hold his hand in that respect. And I think that's the ultimate goal of if we're discipling somebody or discipling in the churches. They're not always gonna have somebody right along with them. They're eventually gonna... the umbilical cord, as we might say, is going to be cut sooner or later. And you're going to face life, and hopefully you can face it with the Spirit of God helping you through that process. Absolutely. And what else is interesting in 2 Timothy 3.14, Paul says to Timothy, but as for you, continue in what you've learned. So there's that thing, I taught you, you learned and have firmly believed and knowing from whom you've learned it. Well, Timothy would have learned that from several sources, from Paul, from the word, from the local church. Yeah. Well, even from his mother and grandmother to some degree. Exactly. That's what he says next, right? Verse 15. And from childhood, you've been equated with the sacred writings. And so, that also kinda illuminates a little bit of this relationship, right? So it's not that Timothy went out and just found one person that helped him in the faith. In a sense, it kinda took quite a few people to make Timothy. That's right, that's right. It just wasn't one... Just one person. Yeah, so it was, here was mom and grandma, we don't know much about Timothy's father, whether he was around or whether he was a believer, we don't know, but his mother and his grandmother's credited with that. We know there was a local church, we know that there's Paul, there's Luke is probably involved. Timothy knows the author of Hebrews, he probably knew the other apostles. So then there's one other person that I often think of when I think of discipleship, it's Barnabas. Barnabas is kind of that interesting case. So you have Barnabas in the life of Paul, where after he's converted, understandably, Christians were a little hesitant to let Paul come in after he persecuted the churches. And it was really Barnabas' words, I think, that really was, God used Barnabas to to help introduce Paul back into the churches. Not that Paul needed to be credentialed, I think it would have been obvious in his life, but God does use those people to say things and people go, okay, well, we trust Barnabas, Barnabas has seen this. Then it seems like Paul and Barnabas worked together in that disciples making process in a local church. And then as we had said last episode, there was that thing with Barnabas and Mark. Yeah, yeah. After that missionary split over what do you do with Mark, Barnabas said, I'll take Mark under my wing. And Mark, he split. We don't know exactly why he split in the middle. No. Barnabas, Paul, and Mark are going on this mission. Mark goes, I'm gone. Paul says, I... for whatever reason, I can't trust him. He's not a faithful guy to me." And Barnabas clearly saw something in Mark that said, no, I think there's something there and I'll take him with me and he just needs a little bit of encouragement. And that's what the name Barnabas means, isn't it? Yeah. The son of encouragement. And so Barnabas is kind of an interesting example of taking those people that might need a little bit more polish, might be a little bit more problematic, I guess you could say, right? And really working with them and really having that that loving, taking time, helping them through certain things. Yeah, and so Barnabas and Mark is a great example of that as well. Yeah, it really is. And we know that later on, Peter had the opportunity to probably somewhere along the line work with John Mark. And even eventually, Paul says, yeah, bring him to me, he's useful. Yeah. Yeah, I think it's different personalities, different gifts being that we have, and Barnabas was a unique individual who kind of saw the down and outers, and yeah, there's still potential there. I don't know that one was right or wrong in the area of Paul or Barnabas, but boy, he sure saw something in John Mark. He did. Thankfully, he did. Yeah, and that's interesting because I don't think either one of them were wrong. I don't think Barnabas was wrong in that situation of taking Mark, and I don't think Paul was wrong. And what you have is you have Paul and Barnabas able to accomplish the mission, even though there was a huge disagreement, because they were going to go back and visit all of the churches. Well, what ended up happening was Barnabas took some of the churches and Paul took the other churches. And so I don't think they were sinning. I think they just said, look, we can't agree on this. So if you really wanna take Mark, then you can go and take Mark and you can accomplish this part. I'll take Silas and we'll go to this part. And so that is also interesting too, that just that process of church leaders and Christians working together and you have all these different levels of maturity and how do you work together and compromise and do all that? Well, I think some feel that, and I probably agree with them, regardless of how all of it came about, twice the work got accomplished eventually. Amen. Amen. Yeah, yeah. And yeah, twice the amount of work, and yeah, praise the Lord for that. Yeah. Yeah. Only He can do that. So Bob, as we're kinda talking about the foundation, so we kinda define discipleship as this committed learner that's becoming like Jesus, we kinda see some of these models of these men investing in the life of other people, not saying that women can't invest in the life of women, that's important too, that probably you and I would probably caution a guy spending a lot of time with a gal that's not his wife in that discipleship process, but I definitely think inside of that, definitely inside of that marriage, there's that mutual discipleship that happens. So in all of that, let's kind of start building the foundation. So what is ground zero? Where's the place you start when it comes to discipleship? In your mind, where do we start? Where's the very first place we go? Well, I think if we're talking at the basic core, I think it's looking for individuals that look like they have a desire to grow and follow Christ. I wanna find guys that, and whether it's me with another guy or a small group of people that indicate that there's a desire, Because you want to make sure your time is useful. And if I'm going to invest and make it a priority to take what I have and help you go to the next level. So I want to find guys that are going to be faithful, that I can trust, so that maybe I've looked at them and watched them for a little while. And so I'm finding guys at that way, and my wife does the same thing. She's investing in people that she knows are gonna carry it on. So at the basic core, I think we wanna find people that are eager to move on, and some of them may not even know that. I mean, when Jesus went around and said, hey, Peter, follow me, okay, he was God, so he kind of looked in new, But I think we have to be able to have an indication in that respect, so. Yeah, yeah, that's really important, that desire to do it. Yeah, what's the old adage? You can take a horse to water, but you can't make the horse drink. Right. Yeah, so yeah, there's gotta be that desire. And so as we're working with those people, it seems like everything we do has to be biblical, right? So it can't just be, okay, I see a faithful guy here. I'm just gonna have him be my personal assistant and call that discipleship. There's gotta be a biblical process in place, correct? And let me kind of back up if I could say this. First of all, and I think you indicated this in the first session, I wanna find a believer. Right. We're not gonna invest our time with just anybody. Good point. So I think at the ground level, we need to know that they know Christ, and with that then, their relationship needs to move further, but let's start at the ground zero, that they are a believer, that they have a knowledge of who Christ is and what he's done in his death and resurrection and all that. Amen. Yeah, and then they have that desire, that spirit. led desire that's brought out by the scriptures. And so, yeah, so dear listener, we're not just saying, just find somebody and just say, just do everything I'm doing. No, we want a biblical process. Jesus, when he talked to his disciples, I think he was one of the great Bible teachers of all time. You look at the Sermon on the Mount, you've heard it said, he quotes a passage, and he says, but I say unto you. So he's teaching them interpretation, how to read the Bible, and in the process of that, he was teaching them what true righteousness looked like. So that's important. Paul, later on in 2 Timothy, when he says, continuing the things you've learned, and what did he learn from childhood? The sacred writings that give you wisdom. And Barnabas would have been the same way. Barnabas would have been pointing to scripture. So scripture is a great resource at ground zero, right? So it's a believer who wants to be committed to following the Lord Jesus Christ, and it's using scripture as the main resource, as the main means. Everything kind of has to flow from that, correct? Yeah, absolutely, yeah. Yeah, and I like what Paul said to Timothy, that if you put these things before the brothers, and there's a sense in which we are inputting and outputting to individuals' lives, because then he goes on to say, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, being trained in the words of faith and good doctrine. And we'll talk more about this, how important doctrine is, but it's that aspect of training. And so, I wanna be able to train others to go to that next step in whatever that might look like in each individual's life, so. Yeah, and so I guess we're gonna talk about a where and when here just for a little bit. We'll discuss this a little bit more in some of the others. But it seems like the where and when is, yeah, all the time, anywhere, right? But there seems to be a special emphasis in the local church, correct? I mean, it seems to be that it's the local church, the way that God's designed the local church is the primary training ground for disciples is within the local church. Yeah, I think he, as we said earlier, the concept of the church came about from him, and that's you know, there are different organizations and things that, you know, may help with that. But ultimately, we should be seeing discipleship take place in the church in a variety of different avenues and different ways. When I was when I was an associate pastor, the guy I trained under said, Bob, discipleship takes place in everything we do. And we'll talk more about this maybe later on as to maybe there's some ministries or programs or things that really aren't taking us you know, further down the line of our spiritual growth. But, you know, everything we do should be, you know, from the pulpit, you know, to one-on-one small groups, children's ministries. If we're inputting the Word into the lives of individuals and investing our lives in the things we're learning and growing, which I think is another aspect of it, the things we learn that we can help others to identify. That's all discipleship. That's all part of the process. Amen. And that's the primary avenue. And obviously, we believe that you can supplement that with other resources. That's why we're making the podcast. We're acknowledging that by our mere existence as a podcast. Well, bringing up resources, what kind of resources do you think there are out there for discipleship? Man, there's some really good ones. So I think one of our favorites is Designed to Be Like Him by Dwight Pentecost. Yep. That's a great, great resource. Bob, you just picked up a newer book. I just picked up one called Discipleship Today. It's an easy read, small paperback by Andrew Berghoff called Discipleship Today. So I think both Pentecostal, as a matter of fact, I just bought a number of those two books, Pentecostal and Burkhoff's book, because I think they're so practical. But yeah, there's lots of other things. When I was an associate, The Navigators put out the Design for Discipleship. It's a six-booklet series that just takes you from the very beginning of your salvation to the assurance of your salvation, and just takes you through what the Bible says about your spiritual growth, and then to the very end where you're now outputting that into the life of another person. Yeah, no, those are great. You know, some of the others I think of is Gene Getz has a book called The Measure of a Man and A Measure of a Woman. Those are fantastic. Another book that's also been very helpful to me has been called The Enemy Within by Lungard. So that is basically a Yeah, the nuts and bolts of what does it mean to be a spirit-filled Christian. There's hosts of books and studies and sermons. I have another workbook that I've had for years that features Dr. Gene Getz and a number of different speakers. It's a workbook called The Measure of Spiritual Maturity, which helps people to, you know, move along in their walk with Christ. And yeah, there's a host of them out there. There's some good ones, some bad ones. If people need help, we'd be glad to help them weed through that. But yeah, because you gotta be cautious. There are just some out there that are very flaky and fluffy and aren't gonna really take you where you need to go. Yeah, so I had a book that was entitled Discipleship, and so I don't know how I got it, but I got it. It was in my library. I picked it up, started reading it, going, oh, no, this is not. This is not right. There were so many things about it that I felt took people away. So yeah, everything other than the scriptures you have to take with a grain of salt, but there are believers who do write and do offer up resources that help you grow and That's really important, because we need each other in this process of growth as a believer. Yeah, and at the end of the day, that's really what discipleship's really all about. Well, this has been good, Caleb. Time has already gone by, and we're needing to sign off and just say thank you to our listeners for joining us again today, and we'll look forward to seeing you again here next time. Thank you for listening to this episode. Our episodes are available on Sermon Audio or the podcatcher of your choice. Like us on Facebook and if you're interested in contacting Bob, please visit www.nicechurchplanters.org. That's www.nice.org. churchplanters.org, or if you'd like to talk to Caleb, please see www.lewisandclarkbiblechurch.com. That's lewisandclarkbiblechurch.com.