Thank you for tuning in to the Forgotten Pew Podcast. We want to help those who sit in the pew each week and are forgotten. We want to help you in your Christian walk as a disciple of the Lord Jesus Christ. So grab your Bible and a cup of coffee and listen to Bob and Caleb chat about discipleship. Welcome to episode four. Bob, it's good to see you again. Always good to be back. That's right. Yep. Another time together. This is good. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Another time together. And guess what? Bob's still drinking coffee. Still drinking coffee. From our last episode to this episode, he's still drinking coffee. Yep. Yeah, well, it's good to see you. We've had some really good discussions up to this point. We talked a little bit about the foundations of discipleship, what that is, what the goal is. Discipleship is a lifelong, committed learner and follower of Jesus Christ. We talked about some of the misconceptions, what discipleship is not. We talked about even some of the debates within the church about different language we use. One of the things that we want to do in this season is kind of just outline some of the basic things of a disciple. And so we want to kind of get into a brief outline of some of the what we're going to call disciplines. Now, Bob, when we say there are spiritual disciplines in discipleship, what do we mean? Well, I think it all flows off of Paul's words to Timothy to discipline ourselves to godliness. And so what are those areas that would help us in that discipline? that commitment. And so we'll look at a variety of different things. There are some that are called disciplines today that we will not get into, some disciplines that we don't think are biblical. So we'll just cover a few of them that we think help in moving us forward in our spiritual walk. That's right. And it's our goal in the next coming seasons to kind of dive really deep into each of these disciplines, kind of some of the stuff that we think are really important for people to grow and be a committed follower of Jesus. And like you said, Bob, there are people who write about spiritual disciplines And they mean something different than what we mean. We are not talking mystical experiences. We're not talking about strange, repeating words over and over and over again until you hear something inside of your head. No, we're talking about these practices that a believer is supposed to do, these grace gifts, as they were, that God gives us that we're to, this is how we deepen our relationship with him. And these are things that we are to constantly do on a daily basis that help us augment some of our behavior, shave off some of those bad things, those sins that so easily entangle us, and then fortify those things that we're supposed to do. And so we're gonna start with something that is absolutely essential. All these are essential, but it's time in the word. And I think Bob and I would agree, how much time should you spend? As much as you can, right? I mean, I don't want to put a time limit on how much time you spend in the Word. So yeah, Bob, when I was going to Bible college, there was a real emphasis on you're not really spending time with the Lord unless it's really early in the morning. So when we talk about time in the word, what do we mean? Any time, anywhere, any place. Here we go. Let me give you an example. I'm a morning person, so I'm usually up by five, six o'clock usually, and that's when I have my study time. My wife is an evening person. I'm usually in bed by nine, 10 o'clock, you know, if I'm at home. My wife's up till sometimes midnight, one o'clock, two o'clock. Some of that came as a result of raising kids, and that was her quiet time. So we have always been a little bit... I'm sidelined all this, I suppose, a little bit. Concerned about those who say you have to be up at four or five o'clock in the morning reading your Bible. Well, that's not my wife, so I guess she's not spiritual. So I think, yeah, any place, any time. The thing is, is are we in the word? 2 Timothy 2.15 says to study the Word. Well, you can't study it if you're not reading it. That's right. So I'm not hung up on the time or the place. That's right. I'm more hung up on the activity, making sure it's done. That's right. Yeah, and there was another thing that would happen in Bible college. There seemed to be a real fascination with doing the chronological reading of the Bible, you know, as things were written, amen, great. I, however, am not the smartest guy, so I would do my devotions in the classes that I was studying, because I'm at Bible college, I'm learning theology, I'm learning the Bible, so why not do my devotions Why not try to kill three birds with one stone, right? I can't hold four thoughts in my head at the same time, so let's try to limit that. So yeah, I'm going through a class on Philippians. Well, I'm reading Philippians for my devotions because I want to know what God said to the church in Philippi and how that applies to my life. And so one of the other things too that we want to emphasize is Time of the Word is not, we're not advocating for any particular program of how you read through the Bible. whether you try to read through the Bible in an entire year, amen, or you do an intensive study on one book, amen. I think the point is that you gotta spend time in the Word, but it's not just having an open Bible, right? Because this happens to me several times. I read books, and there are times where I will read books, and I read an entire chapter, and then somebody says, what did you just read? And I go, I have no idea. I just, I just, I mouth the words, but I cannot retain a single thing. Is that what we mean by timing the word? No, I think it's a spiritual habit of making sure that we are spending time in the Word. We're not going to retain everything. And some people retain more than others do. I'm not a great retainer, so I got to read things more than once. I think that's one of the advantages of reading through the Bible. in a year or two years or whatever program you might want to use to help get you through that because you're just taking in. And I think there are other times where we actually, I like to look at it as taking a road trip. You know, I've seen some sites. That's my year reading. I'm just seeing sites, you know, taking in. But there may be times where I stop at a signage, a historical sign or something, and I want to spend time reading that to learn what that is. I think sometimes we do that in our Bible. There are times where we just need to stop. and spend some time. And the reality is, just like in my physical life where I'm eating food to nourish my body, I'm not gonna nourish my body all the time by just a speed reading through the Bible in a year, so I may need to stop and take some chunks out and feed myself a little bit more nourishment. And Caleb, you would probably agree with this. It doesn't matter what it is. Everybody has a difference. They have devotionals and little books they read to help them along with that. I think our caution, though, is making sure we're not reading about the Bible, but we're reading the Bible. That's right. Yeah. And I like that image of eating, you know, of being able to feed myself. When I think of somebody that's a mature, responsible adult, they're able to feed themselves. Obviously, my kids can't feed themselves. We don't want our kids turning on the stove because they could hurt themselves or burn down our house, right? Little Sophia should not be turning on the stove. So we have to do that. And so there's times where, yeah, you're going to need somebody to help you. help you, how do you prepare your own food for yourself? But eventually the goal would be, I am able to eat out at a restaurant and cook my own meal. And both are okay. But I am able to read the Bible for myself and come to an understanding. I think that's really what the time in the word is, as we've said. And it's what Paul says in Colossians, letting the word richly dwell. within us. So, Bob, since this is not just a cursory reading of the Bible, what are some of the things that you've learned in your life that help you deepen your time in the Word? Like, is there a certain process or certain method you use going through reading the Bible that helps you understand the Bible for yourself? Yeah, I think it's sometimes when I'm reading, if I come across a phrase or I come across a word, I want to deepen that knowledge of that. So I think it's having some good resources that can help you to do that. I think that's part of it. If I understand 2 Timothy 3, 16, and 17 correctly, that God's word is inspired and profitable, and then Paul goes on to list what that is, and the area, four different areas there, that makes me adequate and equipped for every good work, then there may be a process of where I need to stop long enough to say, hey, I don't quite understand that. So I like to have tools. I want to know a couple of things I can go to. It might eventually be a commentary, or it might be, if I'm really into the Greek or the Hebrew language, just deciphering some of that. So I think some resources are valuable in my process of thinking through. And we'll get to this in a moment, but I think a valuable tool in my process of reading the Bible is the Holy Spirit and asking God for guidance. So prayer, as David said, opened my eyes that I might see wondrous truths from your law. So one of the very first things I do as I open to scripture, say, God, as I read through this, as I study through this, show me that which I need to know that can help me to be closer to you in my walk. Amen. Yeah, that teaching of the Holy Spirit using the Word of God is so, well, yeah, I mean, apart from it, we couldn't really appreciate the truth that we see. And, you know, I kind of look at the Bible I don't know, this is probably a weird image for some, but I kind of view it like I'm a crime scene investigator, right? So I want to know what is said to the original audience, what was the author's intent to the original audience. Yeah, exactly. And so I have a series of questions I ask myself as I go through. And the point is, I don't want to put myself into the text, right? Like a crime scene investigator, if I'm leaving my DNA all over the crime scene, well, that's going to skew the results of how I interpret those different clues left behind. So I asked myself a series of observation questions, right? I just want to see what is said in any given text. Who's writing? Who's... Who's the recipient? When is it? You know, where is it? What are some of the, what's some of the grammar of the text? What's the context? What are some of the things being compared, contrasted, right? And just want to look at some of those things and just do a lot of observing, right? Do a lot of observing, seeing what is said. And then part of that too is genre. You know, what style is being written? Cause that'll help me. Yeah, because we don't read epistles the same way that we read poetry. Right. Yeah, that would be insane. Whereas poetry is very much lots of figures of speech and is meant for you to think a little bit deeper, whereas epistles are pretty straightforward. So yeah, so I'm asking myself those questions and then one of the things too then is that idea of interpretation. Yeah, what did Paul say to the church in Colossae is the observation. what does he mean, and what are some of those theological principles that he's talking about? That's part of the interpretation. And so, that's where you look at other cross-references, that's where commentaries come in handy. There's a lot of rules, and we'll get into some of those rules of interpretation later, but there is a process. And then, for me, one of the things that I've really appreciated about mature believers is, when they read the Word, they have this really interesting thing that they do, and I really like to try to incorporate it in my life. I've seen it in yours and others. They can take a passage, and they can say, this is what Paul means to the church in Colossae. And they can say, and here's some of the theological principles. But they're able then to take that, and then they're able to then go, and this is how it fits into the larger context of Scripture, right? So this is what it teaches me about God in general. And I'm able to put it into a framework into all of scripture and kind of have this theological implication that's universal to anyone everywhere. And then they go, okay, so there's those things, but now there's then this other part of this is how I then apply it to my life, right? So there's this application of how it lives out. what that application is depends on the text and the context. But that's really what it means to spend time in the Word, right? Yeah, yeah. Observing, interpreting, applying. I think if our audience can understand those three basic tools, they'll help a lot. And I think if you If you get any of those out of the order, they can kind of get you messed up. So always starting with observation. I'm a Sherlock Holmes fan. I love mysteries. And one of the things I learned about Sherlock Holmes is the very first thing he does is he observes and he perceives things. And in our case, we go beyond a Sherlock Holmes, because we have the Holy Spirit to guide us into that perception and understanding scripture, then with those interpretive tools and coming from the rules that you had mentioned earlier. So that's important. And there's definitely, as I said, There are things that we look at, example in the Old Testament, that was written to the nation of Israel, which was not written directly to the church, and we observe certain things, and we interpret certain things, and then we say, okay, what are the principles, as you said? And there's always good biblical principles in that respect, so yeah. Yeah, and it's kind of interesting, because there are some people who think that they really do spend a lot of time in the Word, but they come up with some of the strangest applications. I think one of the strangest I've ever heard was somebody was looking at the 10 plagues that God was putting on Egypt in the deliverance of his people in the book of Exodus. And they walked away with the principle of what plague is God introducing into my life? And I thought, no, no, no, no, no, no. That's not what that is for. That is a wrong application. you know, there is one interpretation and there's a appropriate application from that interpretation. And if that's what you read when you're reading the 10 plagues of Egypt, and you go, what is God, how's God plaguing me in my life? And how can I grow from that? That's not, That's not a good question. That's not a full understanding of scripture. Yeah, I think if our readers understand that as a disciple, I can't apply before I interpret, and that just gets us in real trouble. And I see that in sermons, I see that in Bible studies, where we're just jumping all over application long before we even understood what the text said. That's right, yeah. No, that's a real issue. Now there's another thing, too, that the Bible talks about quite a bit. It's confused today. There's a lot of people who are very confused, and I think some of this has to do from some of the Eastern mysticism. So the Bible like in Psalm 1 talks about how blessed is the man who meditates on God's word. So, Bob, clearly we do not mean what the Dalai Lama means when he means meditate. We're not trying to empty our minds. Now for some of us, we're coming with pretty much an empty mind anyway. There's not a lot of emptying that needs to happen. But that's not what we're trying. We're not trying to empty our mind to hear God's voice. So what is biblical meditation? Yeah, I've often told people that when it comes to meditation, we're not looking at sitting down in a yoga position and just spacing out. Biblical meditation, not only in Psalm 1, but boy, you see it referenced quite a bit in Psalm 119, is the aspect of kind of just running it over in our minds to think it through, to ponder. I love that idea of pondering and thinking. over scripture. And people often use the cow as kind of an illustration of chewing the cut over and over again. And I think that's what it is. It's just day by day, moment by moment. And that's the beauty of meditation, is being able to think it through clearly. Yeah, so I think there can be some real detriment in not understanding correctly that we're not talking about some of these Eastern mindset philosophies of way out there type stuff. It's pretty basic, pretty simple in terminology. Yep, yeah, it's just thinking about it. And obviously, the one thing that I've noticed in just when I've meditated on things, the more time I spend in the Word, the more richness comes out of that meditation, right? So the more of the book I know, the richer that meditation is. And one of the- And I think part of that meditation is gonna be based upon memorization, which is just another aspect of, you know, if I'm learning the scripture, memorizing it over and over, that gives me the opportunity then to meditate upon it. But it's more than, meditation is more than memorization. I'm memorizing so that I have it with me, as Psalm 119 says, to treasure God's word in my heart. Meditation is then thinking through what that text is saying, how that applies to my life. And then the nice thing about memorizing, I can take it with me, I don't have to have my big black Bible with me all the time. Yeah, and that becomes an incredible tool because you can almost be doing anything and in the back of your mind you can just be mulling over that text over and over and just thinking about implications of what it means, my relationship with God, or the characteristics of God, or the attributes of God, or His will for my life. and how that applies. And so, yeah, it's really mindful, right? Christianity is really kind of a, it's a mindful thing. And that's what meditation is. I remember when I was in Bible college, I would go back to my hometown and I would work at Home Depot and I was just a stock boy at Home Depot. And that's what I would do is I would start off my shift Well, at that time I had a pocket Bible. I called it my pocket knife, you know, cause the big Bible was the sword. The little one's the pocket Bible, the little pocket knife. And I would go through a text and right before I would start stacking shelves, I would quickly memorize a line from something. And then as I'm stacking in the back of my mind, I'm just thinking over, what does this mean? What does this look like? And how does this apply to my life? How does this apply to, you know, my relationships and my local church? Yeah, but I also like what you said. It's not just about memory because there's lots of people who can memorize, but that doesn't do a thing, right? It's that thinking through. It's letting it richly dwell within you. And I think that's kind of the meditation process. I think if there were a detriment to some of our ministries today, it's just getting rote memory without really taking it to the next step. Because God's word was never meant to just be hidden, but that we would do, certainly scripture says, I've hidden your word in my heart. that I might not sin against you, which means there's an application part to it. So, yeah. Yeah, and all theology, right, all times that we do Bible study, the application should immediately be how do I live for the Lord through it? And if there isn't that process of how do I live for Jesus, then you might be, might be misguided in that interpretation. And I think God made us, kind of the old adage, kind of the three-legged stool, reading, memorizing, meditating. Those three go hand in hand, and they should be very much a part of who we are. Amen. Yeah. Okay, so those are, in a sense, they're kind of like, you know, it's kind of the same discipline, right? Studying the Bible, meditating on what God's word says, meditating on God and his character. They're kind of, they're two stages or they're two sides of the same coin, right? But I would see them as two different thought processes, right? One's clearly intentionally observing, the other one is, doing a lot of that thinking on the back end and putting it in. But there's another discipline that I think is really misunderstood, probably more than these others that we talked about. It's the discipline of worship. And I was thinking about the difficulty of worship. You know, there's been several things that I've done in the past that I've called worship. Whether that was worship or not, Bob, it doesn't matter. I've called it worship. And that skews how I think about worship. And then I have friends who talk about worship and the Bible has worship all over it. And sometimes it's so overwhelming that you just kind of resort to what I know. But biblically, when we're talking about worship, what do we mean? What is worship biblically? Well, I think primarily it's extolling who Christ is and lifting Christ up, glorifying him in that way. I think that's at the foundation, that's what we want to do. And there's certainly implements that we can do that, but there's a lot of things that isn't, which then shows you what it should be in that respect. Yeah. In a way, you could almost use the word worship interchangeably with discipleship, right? Because they have the same goal. They do the same processes. However, worship might be distinct, like you said, in discipleship in the fact that its sole goal is to magnify God. And it's magnifying God through the right responses, the appropriate response. And that's what discipleship is. I wanna be like Jesus. But one of the things that we think about when we think about worship that might be different than discipleship is we think of church, corporate worship. We think of our quiet time, which involves reading the word and praying, which is also part of discipleship, but there's that distinct thing. There's time with family, right? There's different avenues, but worship is a lifestyle. It's not just a half an hour service on Sunday. That's right. That's right. Yeah, we are. I think that's if we want to say what is one of the things that's misunderstood about discipleship, especially when it comes to worship, is what I do on Sunday morning. And I've often said, you know, It's in my private worship that I then bring into the corporate worship. And we may talk a little bit more about that here in a moment. But yeah, I think that's a confusion today. And so people come into church and leave church thinking I've worshiped. And it's really only part of what we do. Yeah, every moment is an opportunity for me to exalt God and worship. And culturally, especially being in the church, and then, you know, I'm a musician. So being around church musicians, there's this weird thing that people will say. They'll go, yeah, and after worship, then you preach. Well, hold on a minute here. Yeah. I agree praising God is part of worship and singing is part of worship, but it itself is not the totality of it. And I think that I understand what they mean. I totally get it. And there is something very unique about the corporate setting and us singing the same words together. As a musician, I think that's one of the most beautiful things. I don't know about you, Bob, but when I listen to people sing, that's the only time where everyone in the church is saying the same thing at the same time. We're all saying the same thing. And there's something really beautiful about that. And there's something that connects me to everyone as I'm singing the same thing. We're all singing the same thing and I feel the corporate-ness of it, right? And I'm allowed to emote my feelings for God in the midst of singing. Really important. but not the totality, right? Yeah. You know, when you come back to, as you talked about, all of those elements should be part of who we are. But I think when we come back to that question again, what really is worship? What then joins us together in that singing? What joins us together in that preaching and whatever else we do? I think is an aspect of what A.W. Tozer said, that worship is pure or base as the worshiper entertains high or low thoughts of God. And if our thoughts aren't lifting God up, and I love Isaiah six and Revelation chapter four and five because what that does is helps us as individuals realize this is not about us. And I think that's one of the problems in worship in churches is entertaining people and making them feel good about themselves. That's not what it's about. It's about lifting God up, setting Him up high in everything that we do, publicly, privately. And so I think Tozer's right. It's our thoughts of God, the majesty of God, the holiness of God, the righteousness of God, which then puts us in our right place. That's right. Yeah. Yeah, I totally agree. Yeah, I am amazed at how little my soul is satisfied with even in the midst of some of those things, right? Where I can be satisfied with very little when I have this entire smorgasbord of spiritual realities in front of me and God's word and to marvel at these things and I'll get satisfied with just a little thing and focus on things that are not important. Yeah. Hopefully people will be able to relate to this, but as a musician. there are times where I will go into worship services, either I'm playing or somebody else is playing. And there are times where I might be enamored with the drummer or the musicianship of the guitar player or what kind of guitar is he playing. And for me, foot pedals are really important, effects pedals. And so how's he getting that tone? What amp is he using and all this? And there's an aspect that, That's okay. It's okay to think about tone. Yeah. That's part of the whole thing. But if God is not the central focus of lifting Him up... Yeah. And so I feel like everybody kind of has those things. Like for me, it might be the musicianship. Sure. Somebody else, it might be the pastor's wearing what? What is he wearing? You know, somebody else is going, the guy in front of me has his, what's he wearing, right? Some people might be hung up by what quote the pastor uses in the middle of the sermon. They might be coming because there's potluck today, you know, so. Yeah, when you're singing, you're really thinking, oh man, I sure hope there's cake, because potluck with cake is better. So Bob, have you found that to be true even in your own life? There's like weird things that you get so fixated on. Yeah, and when I was pastoring, I liked the idea of being able to just help people think through, why are we here? Let's ask God to keep us from the distractions that are around, because there's a whole host of different things that we do, so yeah. Well, this has been good. I think there's some more things we wanna expand on this in time ahead, but we're gonna wrap it up for the day and just say thank you for listening to us, folks that have joined us, and we'll, Lord willing, be with you again here soon. Thank you for listening to this episode. Our episodes are available on Sermon Audio or the podcatcher of your choice. Like us on Facebook, and if you're interested in contacting Bob, please visit www.nicechurchplanters.org. That's www.nice.org. Or, if you'd like to talk to Caleb, please see www.lewisandclarkbiblechurch.com. That's lewisandclarkbiblechurch.com.