The following program does not necessarily reflect the views of the staff or management of WFMD. Welcome to the Faith Debate on NewsRadio 930 WFMD. Thank you for spending part of your Sunday morning with us. You can follow this show at WFMD.com and you can follow everything that I'm involved with at HouseholdOfFaithInChrist.com. Why would you want to do that? Who am I? I don't know. Let me tell you who's with me first. David Forsey, he's the pastor of House Church in the south end of Frederick County. Daniel Razvi, he's pastor with a house church on the north end of Frederick County. I'm the pastor of a house church that meets in the center of Frederick County, and my church is called Household of Faith in Christ. Again, HouseholdofFaithinChrist.com will give you information about not just my church, but some information as well about the Razvi Church and the 4C Church. and all sorts of links to my social media and trusted Christian resources. You can listen to sermons and read blogs and it's kind of a one-stop shop for just about everything that I do that's related to the ministry of the church. So anyway, and including linking to the faith debate stuff. And I've mentioned this a couple of times in recent shows. I should mention it again. We are now in the habit of doing a live stream on Facebook until I can figure out how to replace Facebook's live stream and stream with somebody else. But for now, live streaming with Facebook while we record because we're, you know, we're, busy on the weekends. So we don't come in and do the show live on Sunday morning. So we record, uh, usually, usually, you know, four or five shows at a time and we're doing those live on Facebook. So if you want to kind of get a jumpstart on that, pay attention to me on Facebook and then you can, uh, you can watch what we spent a couple hours talking about all this stuff and get a, uh, you know, a sneak peek, sneak preview of the things we're talking about. We typically talk about boring stuff, you know, nothing all that interesting. You know, we talked last week about, uh, I almost forget what it was. It wasn't that consequential. The culture doesn't even focus on it. What was it again? It was homosexuality. Oh, that's right. Homosexuality. That's actually a pretty hot topic. Well, it's this week's show that we're not going to... Even less controversial. Yeah, we're not going to do controversy this week. I got them confused. Actually, it's not a hot topic, Troy. It's normal. Oh, these days. Yeah. What topic? Transgenderism. Don't pay attention. Yeah, so we're talking about transgenderism. Let me start with something that's really practical. Okay, like a practical application for Christians. So if you're a Christian, you're listening, this is for you. Is it okay for a Christian to use someone's preferred pronouns if those preferred pronouns would be in disagreement with their biological DNA sex? It is not correct, I would say, as a Christian, for you to do that. Because by doing that, then you are affirming that the false reality that they're claiming exists. And you are affirming that God made them differently than he actually did make them. Um, now, with that said, do you have to go out of your way to insult somebody to their face? No, I mean, there's ways to do that. If you have sitting down... Unless the person's name is Daniel Razvi, then you should do it all you can. So if you're sitting down for coffee with somebody, and your intent is maybe to share the gospel with them, and they say, oh, my preferred pronouns are this, and they're clearly not for whatever reason, and you know this to be true. You can have a conversation with somebody, especially one-on-one, without using a pronoun. That doesn't generally come up. Where it comes up is in group conversations where you refer to this other person. So you could just use their first name. And the name is what it is. If they've changed their name, It doesn't really matter. I think it's a different thing to use somebody's preferred name than to prefer a pronoun, because a name is who they are, and you can change names. God changes names. There's reasons to change names. There are righteous reasons. There are also ungodly reasons, but the name can change. The pronoun refers to who they actually are, whether they're a man or a woman, and that's something that God has determined that's unchangeable. And so I think it's important to make that distinction This is not right necessarily to It may be fine depending on the context to call somebody by the name that they have chosen for themselves But not to use their preferred pronouns tend to agree with that or disagree with that David Yeah, I think and why, whichever way you're going to go. Right. Um, yeah. So when it comes to the pronoun usage aspect of it, I think that, um, that speaking the truth is, is what we, we must do. Um, even if it is, uh, you know i i i don't i don't think that it is loving to uh... you know uh... allow you know if someone is wanting to believe a lie i don't think it's it's loving to go along with that lie it is just take it to a a laughable extreme forget pronouns but if I met you for the first time and we're gonna have a conversation maybe you're gonna witness to me but I started the conversation by saying you know I'm happy to talk to you but I'm only gonna talk to you if at the start of every sentence you tell me that the sky is green and if you can't tell me the sky is green at the beginning of every sentence then I don't want to listen to you I don't want to talk to you Well, you're not, you can't agree to have- What if I put on my green shades? Right, so we can maybe find some other example that's not, and look who's talking, I'm colorblind actually. No, no, no, I kind of joked on purpose because that's what ends up happening. I think we try to find like workarounds and ways to- Right. But I think it does come down to what David said. You're reinforcing the lie and how loving is that? But that doesn't mean that you necessarily have to then start every sentence, remind me this guy's blue. right you can just not talk about this guy until it comes up and then address it as it comes up you don't have to go out of your way so here's the way it will come up somebody in your family maybe not your direct nuclear family with somebody close you know a cousin you know nephew whatever uh... uh... confused if we don't have to pay twenty whatever uh... and they they say i want you to call me by this name and you're gonna be okay with calling by hill bob is now sally okay whatever but bob is not now she bob is still he i think that's kind of where you are is that where you are as well yet david okay that's where i am as well but now bob who's now sally uh... has uh... has an infatuation has uh... has emerged with uh... with a sally who's now bob and they're gonna have a a wedding so they say and you're invited do you go to to nephew bob who's now sally's wedding but because it is a wedding because it's a marriage between one man and one woman i guess in that case right after i thought you were going with that you know uh... i i i would think i would just consider the what if it's non-christian wedding what if it's uh... bob who's now sally uh... which i don't particularly with a another bob who's now sally so or just to bob's which is a bit of a difference but there's some of that the reason i'm asking is that side seen some of that in like social media or the news or whatever where right here you got uh... uh... it was actually on one of the t.v. shows the survivor last season of survivor something one of the characters uh... identifies which are what homosexuality last week identifies as gay he's a biological male identifies as gay so the whole so you think you know here's a gay guy you come to find out that he's married but he's married to a biological woman who identifies So it's like, so you're not really gay, he identifies as gay, and yet you're married to a woman, you just have reversed the roles, which is, you know, kind of interesting. And ungodly. So, but yeah, so your case has just like a non-Christian wedding, but it's a male and a female biologically, and so that's fine, but what if, but what if it's a, you know, They're they're both the same sex, but they're because this is what's happening now in our culture They're both the same sex, but one of them, but they're one of them, but one of them says they're transgender exactly So now so do you go to that wedding? No? See here's here's the thing. I love how he's always so very definitive right I am I I've thought about most of these topics that in depth and I have my opinions wait so wait would you go to the Sally, Bob, Bob, Sally, right? Yes. Interesting. So, and I say that with maybe a slightly more hesitation than you hear in my voice, but to me there is a big distinction, okay? What the person believes to be true about themselves is irrelevant. There is a truth about them. That's how God made them. Okay? So whether they're gay, not gay, whatever, that doesn't really matter. That's, you know, the actions. And whether they're a man or a woman, that matters. That's how God made them. So if someone invites me to their wedding, uh... and and it's it's a man marrying a woman whether or not they're saved now if one of them is saved and i believe this to be true very certain that the other one is not saved that may be an example of of one that i i don't think i can support that i don't think you can go to the wedding because i'm voicing my support for a unequally yoked, a christian marrying a non-christian But assuming, first of all, they're both saved, whether I like the people particularly or not, it doesn't really matter. You should go and show encouragement that they're celebrating something. And if they're not saved, well, the act of getting married is not a sin. We talked about this last week. There may be plenty of sins in their life, but the actual marriage The fact that they're married now, that's not a sin, because it's a man and a woman. They're together, and they're committing to each other monogamously. Now if it's an open marriage, there's a whole other story to that. But if you get two people that are saying something to the effect of, I'm going to be with this other person, and I'm going to choose to love them for the rest of our lives. then I don't have any reason why I shouldn't say, congratulations, good for you, have a great life. Am I going to say that everything about them is righteous and good? No, I'm not going to do that, and I'm not going to affirm their false identity. But if it does end up being a man, now, if they are, if you got a man who says he's a woman, who's marrying a woman who does not say she's a man. So now they're pretending it's a lesbian ceremony when it's actually a man and a woman. That may be an example of something that say, look, I can't actually go and support this because now I'm trying to affirm that it's a man and a woman, but what everybody else around me sees is that I'm affirming homosexuality, which I don't intend to do. And so I think that's... So some of it's a case-by-case basis. And I think to be... It's not just affirming either. I mean, it's a step above. You're saying it's good and right, what they're doing. But it's beyond even. You're celebrating it with them. Right. And if they're claiming that it's a homosexual ceremony, then by going... Because you are saying that if it were a homosexual ceremony, you'd be okay with it. But there's that whole slippery slope thing, what happens with the culture, the slide into depravity, it begins with the sinful components of our culture wanting us to, they claim that all they want us to do is to put up with them, tolerate them. You're so intolerant, can you just tolerate this? But then, once you give up that ground, tolerance isn't enough, now they want you to accept them. you have to agree with them you might not like it but okay i'm gonna agree with you and then that third level the final thing and if you don't go there you're a hater you're a bigot you're a jerk you have to celebrate with them and that's what's going on when you go to a wedding is you're going there to celebrate. There's actually another level. There's a fourth level? Yeah it's coming up. Oh boy we're in trouble what is this one? It's you say Troy, you are a man. Yes. OK. Manly man. And you are heterosexual. True that. OK. And you are actually married now. But let's just. What are you suggesting? I'm not going to be soon? No, no. But hypothetically, if you were single, if you were not married, right? So let's just pretend I'm talking to a single guy here. OK. Would you be open to going out with a dude who thinks he's a woman, which they would say is a transgender woman. That's what they would say. It's a guy in a dress. Sure. When I was growing up, he called them transvestites. Right. No, no. And I knew your answer. That's why I'm asking and I'm being a little facetious. But that's actually the fourth level is that not only do you have to be okay with it, and out really say it's a good thing that they're doing and then even celebrate with them but you also have to be willing to put aside your own actual feelings saying that you're heterosexual to be able to right because if you say you're heterosexual but you wouldn't really be okay with going out with a guy who just says he's a woman then, you know, but a heterosexual will be fine with it because that's a woman. You know, you don't have any say over your own feelings and desires anymore at that point. So that's the new level that's been talked about. I've seen a bunch of articles on that, they interview, and they're saying you are a hater if you eliminate from the pool of potential dates somebody who's transgender. And you know what, I know this is gonna sound, you know, like linguistic tricks or something, but, And I think it's okay for us to own that label, if we can properly define it. You know what? Absolutely. I do hate that. I hate what God hates. I hate sin. I hate brokenness. I hate the things that, you know, the depravity that robs people of living out their full potential to have the lives that God intended for them to have. It breaks my heart and things that break my heart, I tend to hate. You know, when grandma dies and you're sobbing because grandma's dead, there's death in this world because it's a broken world. Right? Death is an enemy. Death is bad, and so we should hate it. I hate death. Anything that's going to be evidence of brokenness. So I think we can own the hater label, but that's not usually how they mean it. But maybe there's an opportunity for us to spin it. And you mean hating the celebration of sin? Not hating the actual people? Right, not hating the individual who is celebrating the sin. Now there's another topic for another day. There are some examples in the Bible of godly men actually hating people. I would say that I certainly, I hate that they do. And we have love. Jesus has love for people, no matter what their background. You cannot commit enough sins that God is not capable of showing love to you. Now, whether you do get saved or not, that's a whole other story. But there's no way that you can do bad enough things and enough sins that it would prevent you from becoming saved. Now, God will never love any of your sins. Correct. Correct. Any of them, ever. He will never love any of the sins, but he does love the person. Right. And if the person is covered by the blood of Christ, he doesn't see the sin anymore. He sees Christ. Now, of course, you're only covered by the blood of Christ if you've repented from your sins. So there's a lot more steps to this, but yeah, I agree. All I meant by the different levels is nothing is good enough for these people, right? First you had to say, oh yeah, I'm out of guests. There was a hateful phrase right there, these people. First you have to say it's okay, then you have to affirm it, then you have to celebrate it, and now you have to agree to engage in it yourself, otherwise you're seen as somebody that's bad. So you can push back on that by saying, well no, I wouldn't go out with any of those people. Anybody, even a woman, I wouldn't go out with unless that person was saved. And even then, I wouldn't go out with them unless they were planning on getting married. And that's the purpose of having a date. We may have talked about this briefly sometime, but it's probably worth getting into. Dating, courtship, how do you find a spouse? The whole purpose of, when you're single, the whole purpose of meeting people and going out with people is to find a spouse. If there's any other person, then you're playing around with somebody else's wife. And so that's something that I think a lot of people fail to realize. And there's a lot of Christians who just go on a lot of dates, and then they get fallen into that trap of, oh, well, I could date this person. Maybe we're not quite compatible, but maybe we'll find out later if we're not the right fit. You've got to find out pretty early on. Let me shift gears a little bit because of the language. I've become self-conscious. I purposely try to not use the word race the way the world, the culture uses the word race unless I, for clarity, I have to use it so people don't talk about it and I'll usually say quote-unquote race. Because biologically speaking there's one human race, there are different ethnicities, different people groups, different nationalities, different commonalities that people have. there's men, there's women, there's those differences, there's different kinds of people groups, and those should be recognized and in many cases should be celebrated, not just recognized. I mean, some of those kinds of differences and diversity within the human race are wonderful. And I think if you're Italian and you're proud to have Italian heritage, I think that's wonderful. And you're honoring your great-grandfather and great-great-grandfather for them being good Italians or something. I'm totally fine with that. Again, I think spiritually speaking, the Bible talks about there being a second race in a spiritual sense. And that would be those who are believers, who are in Christ, are a holy people, a holy nation. And actually the word there in the Greek is the same word that we would translate as ethnicity and nation and things. So you could use it for race. So I'm okay with all of that. So I'm wondering, same thing with gender. Gender is a literary term, primarily. It's originated as a literary term. And now we've used it as a biological term. So we've shifted disciplines in using it. And by doing so, I'm wondering if we're helping to reinforce the problem. And if I'm right, it's a little awkward always to have to say biological sex. So, am I too hypersensitive on that? I would use gender and sex synonymously. That's how the world does. I'm saying, but that wouldn't have been the case. No, the world doesn't use them synonymously. They say gender and sex are separate and distinct terms. In common usage and practice, they're using them the same way, right? No, that's the whole ideology of the transgender movement is that gender and sex are different. Your biological sex is male or female, but your gender is how you identify. Identify as a man or a woman or a different person. I think it's come around to the point where uh... is like fifty three options on face book for your gender i think i think it's it's at at one point there was sex and gender were used very differently but i i think it's they're they're coming closer and closer together and uh... at least in the in the in the you know in the transgender ideology uh... because Body parts now have nothing to do in their minds with sex or gender, like neither. Because it's not just gender as in masculine or feminine. They would say male, female, man, woman, you know, all the same. And there's not just two now. That's the thing, is there's so many different types of genders. Right. But as a literary term, I'm not sure how there's at least three because there's male, female, neuter. Are there other genders, literarily speaking? Are there, are there only three? I don't know. I'm not, I wasn't a literary major. I think it's just the three, but it also depends on which language too. Yeah. Yeah. But English, there's not nearly as much. By literary, I mean, I guess you, you mean, written language. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, in spoken language, right? In all the romantic languages, you know, French, Spanish, Italian, you know, there's masculine, feminine, there's neuter. Right. Like, he would be the masculine pronoun for a biological male. She would be a, right? Feminine pronoun. Feminine pronoun and then they would be a neuter program but but it really was but in english we don't have nearly as much we use it for individuals that too I said this and then they said that. People use they when they don't... Especially when you don't want to identify whether you were talking about a man or a woman because you want to keep some privacy. You're saying I was having a conversation with somebody in my congregation and they said... Right, yeah. You could say that. But it's really more of a thing in other languages because in a language like Spanish, every word is either masculine or feminine generally. Unless you want to say Latinx. Anyway, Latinx will be the punchline on today's show. This is the Faith Debate. The one I just had to interrupt because we're out of time is Daniel Razvi, also joined this week by David Forsey. I'm Troy Skinner. Thanks so much for listening to the Faith Debate. If you want to follow along with everything that we do, go to HouseholdOfFaithInChrist.com, HouseholdOfFaithInChrist.com, and of course, you can go to WFMD.com, too. I won't mark you off for that one. You'll get brownie points for that, too. Until next week, 167 1�2 hours from Right now, God bless.