you Yeah. and and Yeah. you you you you you you you you you All right, if you can hear me, you can come on in and have a seat. You guys need to come to my church and teach our people this ability to quiet quickly. I've learned that I'm not a cult leader. Because no one listens to what I say. All right, before we get into this panel discussion, I want to tell you, for those of you who went to the book table to get these two books that I talked about yesterday and didn't find any because we sold out, I went to the printing machine and printed some more. No, I had some more at the house, so I brought a bunch of more. So go and get these. All right, we're grateful to have a panel of men that have been a voice on this topic. The reason these men are here and not other men is because these men have said things on this topic. They've put their neck out. I think what we're dealing with in my perspective is This is a touchy issue. It's hard to put your finger on critical theory. It's hard to put your finger on social justice and what is wokeness. It's politically correct, so no one wants to really touch it. No one wants to talk about it. Therefore, people are just kind of quietly saying nothing. And these men have been the ones that said, hey, if no one's going to talk about it, someone's got to say something. And these men have done it. And so that's why I look at them and go, these are the men that I admire for that. And you have to pay a price sometimes when you do that. And when you do that, some people might think that you're being divisive, harsh. Why don't we just have unity? It's not about the gospel, and it's not a secondary issue. And these men obviously don't find it as an issue to be left alone, but first question that we may all have, I know I've had this question, is that, okay, critical theory is not good and social justice is not necessarily the best way to go about solving the problems of the world, but is it really worth all the fuss? Is it really worth dividing over? Is it really worth having a whole conference and writing books on this? I mean, are we making too big of a deal over this issue? And so are we making it too big of a deal? And I'll start with Anthony. No. All right, next question. The reason that it deserves attention is Because the way it's being handled and pressed among churches and within Christianity, especially in our culture, it is a gospel issue. Part of social justice is separating sin from the individual. And if individuals aren't sinners or individuals are accused of sin that there's no hope for, it's anti-gospel. Our only hope is the gospel for sinners. And social justice is dealing with that in an unhelpful way. I don't think that the proponents, some of the people that we have quoted this weekend, that a few years ago that we would have been more confident with where they are with the gospel, I don't think they're intentionally trying to undermine the gospel. But that's where social justice and critical theory lead. And we're far enough down the road now that we can see that happening. So there needs to be attention given to the topic. People need to be warned, and that's why these guys have been sounding the alarm. It's why I'm willing to sit and sound the alarm with them. Yeah, and there are... Social injustice here. There are... Proof. Proof. There are different categories, I think, of people engaging wokeness or social justice. In my book, I give four categories. The unwoke, probably those of us on this stage qualify for that. And then the second group would be the confused. Those are people who, frankly, don't know what's going on, don't know what to think. And I think that's probably the biggest group out there in the church and in America more broadly, in the West more broadly. The third would be the committed. or rather the engaged, the engaged group is doing some hashtags, they're having some conversations, they're putting some stuff on social media, they're reading some books, but they're not all in. The fourth is the committed, the fully committed. And they're the ones who are calling white people to repent of white supremacy, for example. We've tried to substantiate that group the most. The reason we give attention to the fourth group the fully committed is because systems go places and systems of thought and ideology are led by certain people. There's always a middle pack. There's always a lot of people in the middle who are not necessarily going to the extremes of the system. Tons of people in the 20th century professed Marxism, communism, socialism, or were under it. Tons of people liked it. Tons of people supported it. Most people were not Mao in China, Stalin in Russia, Pol Pot in Cambodia. But systems have hard edges, and you have to know the hard edge of a system. People will sometimes say, well look, there's a lot of people who say they're this, But they don't go to the extremes you say they go to. But what we have to do when we understand a system is understand the hard edge of it. Where does it go if you go all the way in? Because there's always somebody trying to push the system that way. So that's part of why I think, I won't speak for my fellow panelists, but that's part of why some of us are speaking up. Not because everybody right now is the hard edge, but because systems don't stay still. And if they aren't opposed and fought and battled with the truth of God, tons of people will suffer as the hard edge leads. I find it interesting when I hear this often that we're making too much out of critical race theory. When the people that introduced it to me or the individuals who are saved weren't making too much of it. So I was introduced to a book that has become very prominent within evangelical circles divided by faith. So there's a review of the book on the URLC by Mark Dever. And I love Mark Dever. I don't believe that Mark's preaching a false gospel. But just to use his own words, he says, this book helps me see our nation more as it really is. He goes on to say that it helps him perceive and explain what's wrong in our country, even in our churches. I'm quoting there. He says the book explains and documents, this is strong, irrefutably what's wrong with our nation, the racialized nature of our society. So it's an unqualified support of the book. And here's what the book says, and is this not what CRT is? It says, we understand that racism is not mere individual overt prejudice or the free-floating irrational driver of race problems, but the collective misuse of power that results in diminished life opportunities for some racial groups. The justification may include individual overt prejudice and discrimination, but these are not necessary. Because racialization is embedded within the normal, everyday operation of institutions, this framework understands that people need not intend their actions to contribute to racial division and inequality for their actions to do so. Well, that's what the book says. That's what the review says, that it helps understand exactly what's going on within our country and in our churches. That is critical race theory. This book has been used for years to train interns that eventually are going to go into our pulpits. And this is being lifted up as being something to help them understand that. Just real quickly, the book goes on to talk about how that even health issues are racialized, that doctors determine against African Americans and in favor of white Americans in recommending coronary surgery. Now, if you want to talk about systemic racism and you're going to talk about the health issue, how many times is the word abortion appear in this book? Zero. That is a legalized systemic issue in our country that targets the black community more than any other issue. And that's irrefutable. I mean, this study here is done in Massachusetts, so maybe in Massachusetts they're doing this. I'd like to know, you know, a broader study of that. The book goes on, finally, to just talk about how that part of the problem in the church, in fact, the book essentially says the church doesn't have the answer. The American church, it says. In fact, it literally says the American church, the United States church, is incapable of addressing this because we believe in an individual aspect of salvation that we are to preach the gospel, changing the heart of one person at a time, rather than ignoring the issues in society because it's not able to transform society. Well, first of all, I don't know anybody that preaches the gospel of Jesus Christ authentically from Scripture that that doesn't, or that would affirm when there is racism in the culture or things like that going on, that those things are unimportant. But we also understand and believe that the gospel of Jesus Christ comes not to be a societal transformation in the realms of over deconstructing the society in order to make it into a non-racialized society. Our responsibility is to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ and to call upon every single person to repent and believe in the gospel. I mean, that's what you see at Pentecost. So when the church was launched, it wasn't launched as a societal transformation movement. It was launched as a preaching of the gospel and calling upon people to repent, to believe and be baptized. So this is not a United States church problem. This, if they want to say that it is, it's ultimately how the church was founded. So I think it's an issue. because they've made it an issue. We're responding to what they've been doing. We believe it is contrary to the gospel of Jesus Christ. And I'm not going to be marginalized in this discussion as if I'm the person who brought it up. Even the statement on the social gospel statement, it was in response to what was taking place. We didn't dream this stuff up in a room and begin to write down a statement. We had been having conversations for months with people about these issues being told, well, you just don't understand, you misunderstand. They're right. I now fully understand and I'm more against it than I was at the beginning. Well, go ahead, Tom. I was going to say, I was going to say on follow up on that, um, You have been willing, so is Voddie Baucom in his book, willing to name names. And that seems to be the kind of the corner rule of what not to do. Is that something that we should be doing? Is that something like, okay, you have, like you said, the committed, and then you have Christian leaders that we like. Is that something that is valid to go, okay, look, there's Mark Dever that we're concerned about. There's this person and that person. Why name names? Well, first of all, the only commandment in the Southern Baptist Convention that you can't violate is the 11th commandment. You get forgiveness for the other 10, but not the 11th. These men need to own what they've been pushing. He wrote a review on the EROC website. He believes it. That's fine. That's what he believes. I have the ability to say I disagree with that publicly. And if you're going to publicly say something and put your name behind it, I can publicly disagree with that. I love him as a brother. Folks, I really do. I love all of these men that I have had issues and problems with. It's broken my heart to see men go down the path that they've gone down. And I'm not saying they're banning the gospel, but they are doing things that are undermining the gospel of Jesus Christ. And we need to have a passion about us, not that is heartless and harsh and all of these things. That's not the point. The point is that We need to help people understand and differentiate, not just the ideas that are problematic, but we have to, unfortunately, talk about the people that are pushing those ideas. Otherwise, we can't have an open conversation. And I know for myself that I've had phone calls, sent emails, had conversations. I've had tried, done those private things. And they have chosen that they're going to take the stance to continue to stand behind this ideology publicly. I have chosen that I'm going to take a stand to say things against it publicly, and I don't think there's any problem at all. Everybody knows who we're talking about anyway, so we might as well just graciously talk about it, say we love these brothers, but then talk about what we have an issue with. I mean, that's for me. Tom, you had something. Yeah, I think fundamentally we have to get before us and remind ourselves that there are things worth dividing over. There are things worth dying for. And the gospel's worth dividing over, it's worth dying for. Paul says in Galatians 1 that if an apostle or an angel were to come and preach a different gospel, let him be damned to hell. That's the language he uses. He goes on, chapter two, tells us that he withstood even Peter to his face publicly because Peter was not walking in step with the gospel. Yes, we love these people we disagree with, our brothers. We love the folks that even who are not our brothers that are arguing against us, saying that we're not being compassionate or considerate of those who are oppressed in our society. But you can't love people the way you should if you don't love God more. And so to love God means we submit ourselves to him and we take him at his word. Richard Weaver wrote this book in the middle of the last century called Ideas Have Consequences. And it's a great book, but even in the title, you see exactly the point of the whole book. These disembodied ideologies don't stay disembodied. I mean, there are people who promote them, and there are people who are complicit in letting them be promoted. And so is this too big a deal? No. If the gospel is at issue, it's not. Now, maybe I'm willing to have the conversation. Is the gospel being attacked or threatened? You know, is this a Galatians one deal? If not, then okay, let's back off and take it off the front burner. If so, and I'm convinced it is so, well then you can't be too strong about it because there are eternal destinies at stake. And I've seen churches ripped apart. I have seen people who have been flourishing believers that have walked away from the faith. I mean, you know them. I Kissed Dating Goodbye, Josh Harris, Abraham Piper. I mean, these things didn't happen in a vacuum. These same things happened in the cultural context that has been poisoned with the very things we've been talking about in this weekend, in this conference. And they are undeniably coming into our churches and into our evangelical institutions. And some people, I mean, Owen set up the, The metric's pretty carefully just in. There are some true believers that are championing these ideas, and they need to be dealt with forcefully. But then there are other evangelical leaders that are standing by and letting it happen. And they're derelict in their duties. Any pastor that lets this go on in his church is derelict in his duty. Any leader of an evangelical institution that lets this stuff spring up without trying to kill it is derelict in duty. I mean, that's the kindest thing I can say. And I don't say that to try to fight or to suggest even that I think that I'm somehow superior to them. It's just we have a book and we're not free to make this up on our own. We are free. We are obligated to try to understand the book, to stand on the book, to love God supremely. And in doing that, then act lovingly toward people who, when you do so, may think that you're really not being loving. But I would rather be thought unloving while truly loving than to be thought loving while being unloving. Somebody just texted me a verse that says, now I urge you brethren to keep your eyes on those who cause dissensions contrary to the teaching which you've learned and turn away from them. And with that in mind, with what you're saying and for all of you guys, what do you suggest for someone who's attending this conference? And maybe they're not a pastor, but they're a member of a church and they see CRT and all this coming kind of in the back door of the church. They see the tendencies creeping in. What is your guys advice for the Christian that sees this in their church? I want them to get equipped. I think it's what we're seeing is the recovery of a strong understanding of lay Christianity right now because too many Christians have been able to or have allowed themselves to coast theologically in recent decades. You just go to the church and the church gives you a little spoonful of spirituality and that's all you need. And now the days are so evil and these ideologies are so aggressive. that you really need to get equipped. And so I think what people are doing in being at a conference like this is a great first step, and then to start doing some reading on your own, both to understand the system of wokeness, CRT, social justice, intersectionality, and then especially reading your book, Jeff, excellent book, Vody's book, Founder's book, and other resources like that. I think it's a time for us to get equipped. It's funny because there's this movement called deconstruction. It's an actual movement. You can look it up after our session is done. And the sole goal is to tear down Christianity, to encourage the telling of stories of people deconstructing their faith and losing their Christianity and seeing that as a positive act that frees them. So it's so funny because evangelicals of this era by a nicified Christianity. They think that if they are just nice, the devil will leave them alone. And that is not a New Testament teaching. There are forces that want to destroy our faith. And it is not enough for you just to be a member of a local church. It is not enough for you to have a Bible with your conversion date written in it. You need to get equipped. You need to think well. You need to know that these systems are gunning for your head. You need to read. You need to be a thinking Christian. You need to watch videos of sound teachers. It's time for us all to grow up, honestly. It's time for us to get equipped. We should not just lean on our pastor or body of elders. That's great to have them. But we really need to think well about these systems and then develop that hope that lies within us from the word. Let me just jump in quickly here. Someone gave me this article, Relevant Magazine, just right before I stepped up here today. The article was written a couple of weeks ago. Relevant Magazine, Christian magazine on the deconstructionism and the future of the church. I'm just going to read you a couple of lines of it. I will tell you that the more church leaders and Christians attempt to correct deconstructors rather than embrace them in their questions and doubts, the faster their church attendance numbers will dwindle. I believe deconstruction is from God. I believe deconstruction is the revival evangelicals have been praying for for centuries. Deconstruction is God's way of returning our hearts to the main point, love. This is the garbage your young people are reading. I mean, we're not, it's not a boogeyman and it's not just out there trying to get in. It's in here. We got to get them out. I'll say just as a pastor, I would encourage you to, you know, everything that's been said, get yourself educated, but also, you know, go to your pastor. If there's something being said, have a private conversation. We've all had private conversations with individuals that we've had concerns with before we've ever said anything in any type of other venue. But you want to do what you can to be a peacemaker in those situations and buy some of the copies of the books, share them with your elders, share them with your pastors that you have here, get Vody's book in their hand if you can. But, you know, the dangerous thing, the insidious thing about this is it sounds right. You know, that old statement of Spurgeon, that discernment is not knowing the difference between right and wrong, but the difference between right and almost right. And there's never been something more almost right than what we're hearing right now. Because it feels right. There's something emotional. I want to feel that when I read some of these things. But it's not consistent. But there may come a time, and you just have to pray about how you do this, you may have to, there may come a time that you have to leave a church. Or Owen said that, I don't think that should be the first thing you do. But you know, you just, you need to understand that your goal first and foremost is to bring about peace. But back to what we said earlier, maybe this is kind of connected, there is a time that Peter, Paul got into Peter's face and said, you're not walking consistent with the gospel. I think that's what we're dealing with right now. It's not that they've abandoned the gospel. They're not walking consistently in what the gospel teaches. What do you say about that we get the concept of white privilege, advantages, and when people have an advantage, that it's unjust. Is that a concept that we can embrace? Is that true, that advantages are inherently unjust? Because it seems like the social justice has made it makes this claim where if someone has more money than I have, just the fact that there is someone that has more money than actually I have, somehow I'm not treated fairly. I don't have the same piece of the pie, and it's not right for some people to have a bigger portion than other people. And so there are people who have a lot of wealth. There's some people that are poor. Is that unjust, that concept of a variety of wealth distribution? Is that unjust? Anthony? No. You're good at that one. If they obtained the money in immoral ways, then it's unjust. If they worked for it or inherited it, no, it's not unjust. The problem, one of the problems in this situation is we are prone to look for our identity in all of these different things. And we find our identity then in being a victim if we find ourselves on the lower end in any way whatsoever. And at the end of the day, are there privileges Some people find themselves in more privileged positions than others, yes. The question is why? Do we have a God who is sovereign or do we not? At the end of the day, I tend to think less in terms of privilege and more in terms of providence. What has God given? And am I being a good steward of that? What has God given to you and are you being a good steward of that? I think we have to fight hard not to blame God for the situation that we find ourselves in. And I see that happening all around. I have seven children. Three of them are black. One was born in Africa, and two were born through crisis pregnancy centers here in America. But the oldest three are black. I mean, I really hope and pray that they don't grow up thinking that they're somehow less because of the color of their skin. My younger children, they don't have any other privileges. Actually, I'll probably get in trouble for saying this, but if I take my two oldest sons, I have a black son, a white son, they both apply to the same university for school. The debt actually is stacked against my white son in our culture now. That's impartiality. That's sin. If we don't get back to structuring our lives, our systems, our way of life based strictly on the scriptures, then we're gonna find ourselves constantly swinging, trying to find terms and verbiage and phrases to identify what's going on and trying to find these balances and making dumb excuses for why this person is a have and this person is a have not. rather than living in God's world and defining things according to his terms and believing that he has caused us to live within the boundaries of our habitation in the times in which we live in order that we might seek God and seek God as a result of coming to terms with that. The radical thing, that's so well said, amen. The radical thing today is to be content. The radical thing today is to be thankful for what God has given you. That's the true revolutionary. A true revolutionary today is not the person who's out there protesting and throwing bricks through windows and denouncing people they don't even know based on how they look. That's not a true revolutionary. A true revolutionary is the person who lives a God-centered life. who is thankful to a sovereign God, who goes to a local church assembly week after week, who strives to love fellow Christians in the faith, who cleans the restrooms and gets no applause for it, who brings a casserole to the potluck. Do we still have potlucks? We still doing that? That got the strongest response of anything I've said. Hashtag potluck. Potluck revival. I grew up on potlucks. I mean, those little hot dogs in the sauce. It's pot providence. It's what? Pot providence. Pot providence. Come on. I'll let you tweet that one. That's the person who's a revolutionary, the person who is working in the unity of the bond of the Spirit for peace. Not to destroy, not to hate, not to resent, not to be angry at God. If you're angry, by the way, all the time, you're not angry at white people or systemic oppression or power brokers, you're angry at God. And the gospel brings peace. And the peace-captivated Christian, whatever their skin color or background, is the true revolutionary. I've contended for the last many years, the most important verse in the Bible is Genesis 1.1. God made the world. This is his world. He set it up. He rules it. And we are his creatures. As Christians, we have the opportunity and the great privilege of recognizing what God's told us in the Bible is true, and that he is doing something from eternity to eternity, and we get to be a part of that. We have roles to play. And my role in God's work that he is doing for all of eternity is not the role of Billy Graham, or John Calvin, or Charles Spurgeon. My role has been determined by God to be in this sphere, at this time, in these ways, with my gifts, my limitations. And the way I can live well is to try to do the very best with what I've been given as I have, to be a good steward of that. And there are people that have a lot more gifts than I do, and people have a lot more opportunities than I do. And if I'm thinking rightly, I ought to rejoice with them as they rejoice in what God's done for them. And there are people who have less than I do and have a lot of disadvantages that I don't have. If I'm thinking right, I should weep with them when they weep over the difficulties that come to them in this life. That's how we're called to live. But this world is not about us. God's doing something and we get to participate in it with some understanding because he's revealed himself to us. And as has been said, this ideology, these ways of thinking, it just breeds contempt and envy and a discontentedness that's crazy and it's contrary to the way of Christ. Does privilege exist? Absolutely, I have lived an incredibly privileged life. There's no doubt about that. There are people who died just after a few breaths that they took in this world. I've been privileged way above them. Am I privileged because of living in America rather than Sudan? Yes, I am. Praise God for the privileges he's given me in that. Am I privileged because Owen said the other day, you know, heightism, he wanted to bring that in as a category of his disadvantage. Well, I'll tell you, being six foot two has no privileges when you're flying coach on Delta. Zero. I got you there, I'll give you that. But again, it's God's world. This is not giving cover for injustices. but let's measure justice by what God says is right and wrong, just and unjust. And if we can do that, then man, it just, it suddenly takes the heat way down. on all these things today that are at a boiling point, and that if you're not standing up and shouting about, then somehow you're not being loving. Well, again, it's by what standard? What does God say? So I just want to say amen to everything that these brothers said about that. Yeah, privilege exists, and we're stewards of everything God gives to us, and God doesn't make us alike. You know, he made me a man, not a woman. He made me live in this day, not last century or next century. That's God's decision, and I should seek to do the best I can do what God's given me, where He's given it to me, as He has given it to me. This illustrates one of the problems with the issues of being anti-gospel. Because for someone to be saved, they've got to come to grips with their own sin and to be able to repent of their sin. And this system creates the ability for someone to blame their personal sin of their own heart on someone else. So my envy, my greed, my resentment, it's really not what's wrong with my heart. I wouldn't have these issues if it weren't for your privilege. And only in the Bible do you have, which is totally antithetical to CRT, do you have a statement that you're not to show partiality to the poor or the rich. So this system's built on a partiality to the poor and to paint the rich as if all of those who have privilege are working in a system that oppresses other people, and therefore you have seminaries. Again, like Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary, or the North American Mission Board, who release videos while people are out on the streets rioting, that where we need to begin is to understand This doesn't happen every day. That's exactly what was said. This doesn't happen every day. There's a reason we don't understand why they're writing. Why are they're stealing? Sometimes you gotta get busy and throw a brick through a window, quote. That is, and again, I know they didn't mean it this way, but that is as much a statement from the pit of hell as what Satan said in the garden in the twisting of God's Word, because we never ever say anything that can diminish somewhat the sin of their own heart, you know why you throw a breakthrough window? Because your heart's full of greed, your heart's full of envy, your heart's full of spite. That's why you throw a breakthrough window. Now that does not negate the fact that there may be other circumstances that are going on that also was a part of inciting that person. Of course I understand that. I can incite my wife and bring out wicked things within her, but I hope she's not watching. If she is, if you heard amen, it's all the way from Texas. But in any conflict, the Bible tells us there's two sinners. James chapter 4 says, why are there quarrels and fights among you? Is it not that you are coveting? Not one side coveting and the other side not coveting. Both sides are coveting. And therefore, the same thing is going on in our culture today. The reasons there are quarrels and fights among all of us is not because there's privileged, oppressed, and the oppressor. It's ultimately because we are all sinners and we're playing this whatever situation we're in, playing out the role of sinners, and we are coveting. And we need to deal with the issues of our hearts. So when I bring that evil out in my wife's heart, She needs to deal with the sin in her heart that responded to my sin, and I need to respond to my sin. So this is not an either-or, it's a both-and. But you can't get there from critical race theory. Because it only is one-sided. And it says, why are there quarrels and fights among you? Because you have oppressors who are oppressing these people. That is anti-gospel, it should be rejected, and it should not help you understand the world you live in. There's one book I've been given for that. It's not divided by faith or any other book other than God's Word. I have a question. We have two Toms. There's a Tom A and a Tom B. You're B. It's a pretty same-sex attraction conversation. I'm not sure which side I want to be. This is for Tom A. I have been personally, this is from me, from my heart, I have been impressed with you and particularly with the stress that I perceive that you have been under. You say, well, I haven't felt any stress. Well, maybe you haven't, but I would imagine that you have gone through some stress and through difficulty. And you know, and the ministry's hard. The ministry's hard. And sometimes you have to face hard decisions, pressures, difficult decisions. How do you, as a pastor, like maybe you're a pastor or maybe you're someone out there and you're like, hey, I'm coming back from this conference and I see a greater, that this is something I need to sound the alarm on, but I'm scared. I'm nervous. And I don't want to be a troublemaker. How, what's your encouragement? How have you personally have dealt with this? Which to me, I look on the outside, I'm going, that's the man to follow. But I'm sure it's not always been that easy when you lay yourself on your bed at night and reflect upon where you've been and what it's taken to get to this place. Yeah, well, one thing is having good elders in a church, having a good church. Man, I've said this for years, but I don't think I've said it any more passionately than I have in the last four or five years. The best counsel I can give to anybody is find a good church and build your life around it. And if you've got to move across country to another nation to do it, do it. There's just nothing more important than that, practically speaking. For Christians, find a good church, build your life around it. By God's grace, you know, serving as a pastor, there are fellow elders that just keep me stabilized. I've told a story, let me do it real quickly maybe, of, you know, we have six elders right now, one black, one Hispanic from Cuba, I'm quarter Syrian, and we've got three white guys that are on our eldership. And I was reading, we were reading Dividing by Faith, our elders were reading it together, because it had been recommended by Mark. And we're reading it, we're kind of confused in the first couple of chapters until we started underlining the words must, should, ought, and asking the question, why are we letting sociologists tell us what we must, should, and ought do? You know, we got a book for that. So that gave us clarity, we got through that. But I'm also reading Shelby Steele's book, White Guilt, at the same time. And I'm up in my study late one night, And the black elder, Don, I don't even know why he was there, but he stopped by, stuck his head in. I'm weeping. I'm reading Shelby Stills' book. He weaves in his own story in this wonderful book. I highly commend the book, White Guilt, and Shelby Stills, a black intellectual. And he's talking about things he lived through as a boy. And I'm thinking, this is my America. You know, he and his dad would take road trips, and his dad, whenever they'd get low on gas, he'd have to pull into a town, look for a black guy, and say, hey, where can we get gas? Because you couldn't get gas at every gas station. Or where can we go to the bathroom? And there would always be some residence in these towns where blacks would let black folks traveling come in. And I'm weeping. So Don says, man, what's going on? So I'm telling him, I hate this. And Don's told me his story. And other blacks and Hispanics in our church told me some of their stories. And they've been discriminated against, no doubt about it. They've been treated horribly. And I'm saying, I can't believe this is happening in my country. This is on my lifetime. And I said, I think we need to get the black members of our church together. And we need to just listen to you guys, tell what all you've lived through. And we ought to have a special service for this. And I'm just going. I mean, the thoughts are flowing across my lips. And Don listens to me for a few minutes, and then he stops me. He said, you know, I understand what you're going through. I hear you. But why would we do that? To what end? And I said, well, because it's been so bad. He said, yeah, but why? Why would you think that that's a good response to what's been so bad? And I said, well, I don't know. It made me feel better. And he said, we have a book. We have a book. And it was just like, man, I'm on the brink. I'm going over. And he just reached and grabbed me and pulled me back. So good elders, no substitute, good church, But then, you know, the controversy. Man, I hate controversy. You probably laugh at that, but I hate controversy. Yeah, see, somebody did laugh at it. But, you know, two things have helped me. One, Jesus said, beware when all men speak well of you. Well, that's one thing that I haven't had to worry too much about, you know? So praise God for that. But then in Matthew 5, 10 through 12, in the Beatitudes, you know, he says, blessed are you when men revile you and persecute you and say all men are evil, falsely against you. For my name's sake, rejoice and be exceeding glad, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you. Okay, why do people say those things, persecute you, revile you, if you're living the way you're supposed to live? It's because you're taking God at his word seriously. You're not backing off of the Word, even in the face of persecution. Well, that same Word says, when that happens, rejoice and be exceedingly glad. So how can I take the Word seriously over here that provokes persecution, and then when it happens, not take the Word seriously over here that says, rejoice when that happens? So that was a big challenge for me. But what my wife and I do now is whenever it gets particularly hot, we'll either go out and eat or we'll buy steaks and have a party at home. We genuinely rejoice. We say, OK, God, this is what you've got for us. And so we've learned how to have parties. And sometimes we'll invite the whole family and say, hey, man, did y'all read what happened today? Did you see what somebody said about your dad today? Let's get together and just party. And we do that, and it's been wonderful. I mean, it's helping me take myself not so seriously, which is always a good thing. You eat a lot of steaks, don't you? I do, man. It used to be ice cream, but I finally had to get over that. You should have a potluck. You know, the way I kind of keep critical theory or social justice kind of categorized in my head, you know, Islam is an attack upon special revelation. That's the Bible, special revelation. And so we know Islam is, hey, that's a dangerous world religion. It's against the gospel. That's bad. But critical theory is, you know, you got special revelation, the Bible, and you got natural revelation, and that's what God has given all of us. And we actually hold natural revelation in common, or at least in common grace with our Islam friends, with Muslims. It seems like critical theory is attacking the very foundation of society because it's undermining common sense. It's undermining nature itself. It's undermining the authority that God has established within the human heart, just the basic laws. And anywhere there's authority, they're trying to deconstruct that. And so that's why it's in our politics, it's everywhere, and it's coming into our church But it's at the very foundational level, which the gospel cannot stand if you undergo the very foundation. But with that said, here we are at 2021. It's here. It's around us. You guys have been sounding the alarm longer than I have. But it's here. Where does this end? What's 10 years look like? What does five years look like? What does 20 years look like? How does this end? That's the last question, so. I don't know. I don't know. I don't think I've got 10 years, so you guys will have to sort it out after I'm gone. Thanks a lot, Tom. You're welcome. It will not be a sad day for me when that comes. We just have to be faithful now. People ask me, what's your plan? When are you going to retire? What are you going to do? And I don't have a plan. I mean, I really don't. I just try to do the next thing. I want to do what God's called me to do as long as I can do it in ways that will be effective. But I mean, our nation, Western civilization, this nation, we are in for hard days. That's the bad news. The bad news is it's going to be harder than most of us have lived through. The good news is it's really not that much different than what most of our brothers and sisters have lived through throughout history. So, you know, it's not like, oh, no, the kingdom of God's going to fail. No, it's not. I mean, God, you know, America could die tomorrow. The kingdom of God is not going to miss a beat. It's going to continue to go. But that doesn't mean we should just throw our hands up and say, well, let's don't do anything. And one of the things that's happened to me over the last several years dealing with these issues is I've become far more appreciative of what God has done in this nation, through this nation, from its inception. And it's worth fighting for, not because of just the nation, but because of what God has done from and through this nation to all the nations. Let me tell you what I said to dear friends four years ago. I wrote a letter to my dearest friends on earth. I said, if we don't get ahead of this, we will be longing for the days when we used to sit around and debate Calvinism with our non-Calvinist friends. And we're there, you know, I miss those days. So if we don't stop this now, then the church is going to suffer. There's going to be a, I'm already seeing it. We're going to see the foundations erode from good institutions, what have been good institutions. We're going to see young people corrupted. I get these stories almost daily now. People going off to send their kids off to Bible college, send their kids off to seminaries. this, they get woke or they get this nonsense in their heads and they, you know, some of them can recover. Most of them don't, thus far that I'm aware of. And the church is going to continue to, to have to deal with these issues and fight on fronts that you're sadly, you wish you didn't have to fight on. I mean, cause we, our, our mission is to make disciples, but if the message is being corrupted, by those that are supposed to be our allies that we're in this with together. We've got to try to continue to make disciples while we're correcting this and saying, no, no, these guys used to be trustworthy. These institutions you used to be able to send your kids to no longer. And that's a tough thing. And so it's going to be harder. It's going to be smaller. The battle is going to be more intense, I fully expect. I think it's happening already, persecution, opposition I think we haven't begun to scratch the surface of what is coming. People talk about 2020. It's not 2020. It's going to be the 2020s. It's going to be the next decade that historians will look back on, if Christ tarries, and say, man, look at the sea change that took place. that decade. So I think we're in for hard times, but I don't mean to be negative about that. I mean, Christ wins. The gospel goes forward. This is a day that is rich in opportunity. You know, for those of us who know Christ, know the gospel, it's a target rich environment. You know, just close your head, close your eyes and just start shooting. You're going to hit places that need the gospel. And so that's wonderful. Try not to just get distracted, hijacked, hijacked by all kinds of opportunities to forget your mission to make disciples. That's going to be a challenge. But it's not anything different than what most of God's people have lived with for most of human history. It's just that he's been so good to us so long. It's different for us and for our children and our grandchildren. We have a stewardship to do the best we can while we can. Seems like the days are going from bad to worse, but God loves the odds against Him. God loves the wind in His face. He sent Christ into history at a low point. He didn't send Him at a high point. And so, I think we will likely see American society, Western society darken. And I think that there will be all sorts of image bearers lost in their sin. who are targeted by Satan and who suffer, and suffer terribly in days ahead because of ideologies like this one. So that is very sobering, and I would warn you against any teacher, any preacher who would say, it's a great thing that things are darkening. It is a terrible thing when people are sent to hell by the devil, and when a society gets worse and worse and worse. But on the other hand, God is always doing a work. And so there is tremendous confidence and hope that God will continue that work because he will do, he does, God does his best work in the dark. We feel like darkness has covered the land, and we now dwell in complete shadow lands. And then we look out in the night, and there's a campfire out there. And there's a Savior who's going to return. And the gospel is advancing. And so that's our confidence. That's our hope. God is going to advance His church in this. And God appoints trials. It's not just that trials come and dark times come. God appoints them. The Heavenly Father is ruling history. He has history in the palm of His hand. And He has appointed these trials. He has set this deck up such that it would play out for His maximal glory the way it is. And I pray that I pray that our generation will not just have posters of Spurgeon on the wall, or will not just have a mug with a Reformer on it, or have a great t-shirt with Jonathan Edwards or someone like that on it, but I pray that we will carry the fire of the Reformation forward. This is a time when we need to be ready to pay for our faith. But God has gifted us everything we need to do that. And the torch is lit. The torch is being carried into the dark. And so we need to not just tweet Spurgeon quotes. Now it's time to recognize that we need to be Spurgeonic. I don't know what's going to happen, you know, in 10 years either. But I do know this, that 10 years from now, we're going to need the same thing then that we need today. We need an unaltered gospel, and we need confidence that the Word of God is inerrant, sufficient, and powerful to accomplish God's work. Christ will build His church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it. My prediction is that churches will be dead and its memberships will be dispersed because there's no point in going to church after you lose the gospel. So we're going to see dying churches everywhere. But for the good news is the true church are going to be left and no more. It's going to be less of a this gray area. Where is the church in this liberal span to conservative Christianity? I think what's going to be left is the true church for the most part, and those two churches are going to be thriving. And so I'm optimistic for the church and And I'm praying that, you know, the church is going to be experiencing a closeness to God that they've never experienced and that a lot for the church will be thriving and Christ will be close to us. So I'm optimistic in the pessimistic outlook of our country. With that said, we're closing in. You know, guys, that we were planning on having Votie Bauckham here and he wanted to be here. This would be the first conference that he wanted to come after his surgery, but then Another complication came about and Tom asked, well, you're a friend of Voti, we're all friends of Voti, but you know him pretty well. Could you give us an update? And after that, could you close this session in prayer and then pray for our brother, Voti? I was communicating with Voti yesterday and he's doing better. I mean, he's got a long road ahead of him. This setback, that resulted in open heart surgery was like a last test before he was going to go to Mississippi, be with family. And they discovered these blockages. And I asked the people involved in that, it seems like a pretty big deal to miss. How did you miss that until right now? And they said, well, we weren't looking for it. We found what the problem was that put him near death more than once. and corrected that, very hopeful, but we wanted to check out these other things before we just gave them a release to go to Mississippi and come back once a month. And it was in that process they discovered these blockages and some various, they had four arteries blocked. One of them was the widowmaker, 80%, two, 100%, another one, I forget the percentage. And so they replaced them all, went well. The surgery is a difficult surgery. Some of you have been through it, some of you know folks have been through it. The heart doesn't like to be touched, and it was touched a lot. And some things happened during the surgery that complicated further problems with his kidneys. He has a kidney disease. But those are beginning to come back somewhat. So he's hopeful. He's encouraged. I mean, he's like a caged animal. He wants out. And getting back with his family was really good. Bridget was able to go back to Lusaka and bring the kids, so they're all together. And he's, there's a great story to be told in all this. God has done incredible things. I mean, amazing things. And Voting, I've talked about it, and he's, I said, brother, you gotta tell this story. And he's going to tell the story at the right time and the right place of just the hand of God in and through it all and what God has done and is doing in the wake of it and the prospects of things for years to come that God has done through this. It's wonderful, but it's his story, and so I'm looking forward to him telling that. But yeah, he wanted to be here in the worst way. His book came out last week. They had this large tour planned for him to go promote that book. That got reduced significantly, but he was still gonna do a little bit. And then with the open heart surgery, that got slammed shut. And yet his book's still number seven at USA Today. So anything you can do to promote that book, do that, that's a good thing. So anyway, he's doing, I think, about as well as anybody you could hope would be doing in that circumstance and looking forward to getting strong enough to start cardiac rehab and then, as he put it, getting back in the game. And I told him, man, we need you. We're ready for you to be back in the game. So let's pray. Father, we thank you for the gospel of the Lord Jesus and what you have given us in Christ. We thank you for the stewardship that is ours to make this gospel known. And our desire is to be faithful as stewards. And we need your spirit to empower us. need him to teach us, to comfort and encourage us to think rightly from the scripture to our world. And we desire that you continue to do it. Help us to remember Christ in all that we do, all of our deliberations, all of our efforts. And we thank you for voting. We miss him. We wish he were here with us. We know he would like to be here with us. But God, we praise you for what you've done and how you sustained him. In times when it looked like he was going to be taken from us, you intervened, and you kept him alive. You put him in the right human hands, and you guided those hands, and you caused people around the world to pray for him. You stirred up people to support him, and you've done wonderful things in and through all of this, as you always do. We never have reason to doubt you, and we thank you for what you've done in our brother's life, and Bridget's life, and their kids, and we pray that you continue to work in them. Encourage him, give him physical strength, renew him spiritually and emotionally, give wisdom to the doctors and those that are attending to his body. And I ask that in and through all of these events that you would make a name for yourself through the Baucom family in a way that will redound to your glory throughout all of eternity. So we thank you for our brother. We thank you for the ways that you've used him in each of our lives, and we commit him to you and your care. In Jesus' name, amen. We're going to have our break before our last session of the conference. We'll see you back here at 345.