Welcome to For the Love of the Church, this is Season 1, Episode 3, The Church is Essential. Welcome again, dear listener. We are so very thankful that you've made it to episode three with us. To be honest, Dave, I'm kind of shocked we've made it to episode three. I'm shocked too, but here we are. Here we are. This is what it looks like. I'm not sure this is what we envisioned, but this is what it looks like. We are, it is what it is, we are where we are, we're doing what we're doing. That's right. And you're listening. And you're listening. And just for the listeners, so that they can have a really good mental picture, right now I'm wearing a fedora. It's an amazing fedora. It's so good. It's actually the light shines through the fedora. So you kind of get this halo. It's like a weird halo effect that you got going on because it's only on the rim of the fedora that the light shines through. So it's an interesting look you got going on, Caleb. Well, Dave, I gotta help myself out however I can. And this is the most helpful. Listen, if a fedora helps you, then by all means, wear a fedora. That's right. Now, I do got a quick story about this fedora. So I, we had some friends come in from Idaho during COVID to the coast. And it was very interesting to be here on the coast during COVID. But one of the things we did was we wanted to go to the beach. And there was like a couple shops that were open, but it was like only like six people in at a time. And I have been trying to buy a fedora since I got married and my wife says no. But because of that person limit into the store, I was able to go into a store that had a fedora with my friend, without my wife and was able to purchase the fedora during COVID. That was some crazy time during COVID. Do you remember that? Do you still have COVID fatigue? I still have COVID fatigue. In some ways, it feels like yesterday. In other ways, it feels like a lifetime ago. Yeah, we actually, I transitioned out of being the lead pastor during COVID. We had already announced that we were going to be leaving our church in like November and had made plans and preparations and all that stuff. And then man, when COVID hit in March, like middle of March and everything shut down and then trying to figure out what to do, how to do it, why to do it. I got COVID fatigue, primarily just trying to figure out what the rules were for us to meet here in Oregon. seemed like every day there were new rules, different rules, and facility size, people meeting, and man, there was a real struggle every day just to figure out, can we even meet according to the rules? And one of the things that really, really kind of grinded my gears was that the church was not seen essential in the life of the church. It wasn't that the government didn't see the church as being essential, because I don't expect the Oregon government to see the church as being essential. It was how easily people forgot about church in the midst of COVID and the fact that they were still part of a church. And so, just encouraging people to talk to each other, they were like, well, we'll just wait till we get back together. No, that's not how this works. So, the church is essential. It's very essential to the life of the believer, but not everybody sees that. No, and I think it's a shame. Okay, this is just my two cents on the matter. I think what COVID did was it finally gave a quote-unquote excuse for people who weren't really committed to church to now have a reason not to be committed to attending, participating in, engaging in church life. And obviously there were some people that were very committed and dedicated to the point that they were gonna come hell or high water, they were gonna be at church. But I think what it did was it just kinda like, it really gave a legitimizing excuse to people to not have to be part of it. And it is interesting to think about when you think about the reality that some people who are believers, I'm not questioning that if you're not committed every Sunday to church, you're not a believer. That's certainly not true. But how those of us who are believers can so easily get to the point where we are trying to find every reason why we shouldn't have to go. I think it exposes the duty, obligation, mandate, if you will, that we have of like, oh, I've got to go to church. as opposed to saying, I get to go to church, and I have the privilege of going to church, and I have the opportunity to go to church, and to gather with other believers. So I think it legitimized in some people's minds the fact that, hey, I didn't really want to be doing this anyway, but now I've got a reason why I don't have to go. And continuing on, we're three years past, three and a half years past. COVID now, however you want to mark the end of it. And I think we're still struggling in some of those ways with engaging people in community and in church. Yeah. There was another interesting thing that happened during COVID. Not only were people just not committed to the church, because the church was just a convenient way for them to say hi to everybody, now that you have to actually intentionally, that stunted it. But then there was this other class So, my congregation inflated, how many people listened to my sermons, because now I was live streaming. And so, what would happen was there was a lot of people who would not attend my church, because they had a lot of friends in other churches, they're not listening to my sermon, or people around the world. So, I had this incredible global reach during COVID. Uh, you know, I went from 10s to 20s So just just really exploded on that thing. They call the internet But what ended up happening was once we started gathering back together in person I really cut the quality of our live stream. I just use a cell phone And I even have it landscape and people it drives them nuts. They say why can't you just turn the phone? there's black bars on the side and we feel like we're missing something and I'm a little cheeky and ornery and I go, good, you are missing something. So you're doing that intentionally? I do it intentionally. I intentionally have a just passable live stream. Yeah, actually, in all reality, I've actually wondered that because I know you're kind of more of a techie person. And I've thought the what I know of Caleb and his techiness does not match what I see with the live stream. But now I understand why you're doing what you're doing. Yeah. So it's it's purposeful for people to go, I feel like I'm missing something. There's black bars. It's not. It's really just It's really for people who are sick, and we have a couple shut-ins, but what has happened is there's been several people that have stopped coming, but still listen to the sermon. I don't know, have you noticed people not attending church as much? Yeah, I think it's down some, and I think any pastor will tell you it's probably down. Some churches gained, some churches lost, but I think overall there's the ease, like you say, It's just on a practical level. I like the concept of what you're doing with the live stream. So if you've never checked out, you need to check out, go to Facebook, like Lewis and Clark Bible Church in Astoria, Oregon. And then every Sunday morning and Sunday night, because Caleb does Sunday night, you can watch a live stream, which is going to be basically Caleb's cell phone strapped to the pulpit about two feet away from his face. And you're gonna get the teaching, but you're not gonna get a whole lot of other you know, periphery stuff. And so I think that's an important thing just to highlight and note. But yeah, I do think that we're down and, you know, I came across the Pew Research just put out some stuff actually about, what, seven months ago, eight months ago, where they are now suggesting that 30% of Americans attend a service once a month. 20% of Americans say they attend fewer times than they did before the pandemic. 40% of Americans have participated in some religious services. And then 70%, this is an interesting statement, 70% of people 30 and younger have not participated in religious services in the last month. We've known for years that the older generation is much more committed and faithful, and it's not to say that the younger generation is not. I don't want to be disparaging of the younger generation. maybe sometimes we need to think through our philosophy and techniques and practice in church. However, I think what we're starting to see is more and more disengagement, disenfranchisement with church as a whole. And we don't see it as essential, kind of like what we talked about in episode one, where you can't just go over to your friend's house, share, hey, this is what God's doing, and pull up a couple YouTube videos and call it a day. That's great, and that's fine, and that's good, and great. I'm glad that you're engaging your friends in their walk with Christ. However- More Bible, always better. Yeah, there's an element that we need to be together in a church context. That's the God-ordained method. And so it's just interesting to me. And I think there's some of that where it's like, I'm gonna do church on my terms. I'm gonna do Bible study and meet and greet and that kind of stuff, religion on my terms. And whether it's, I'm too afraid to go because of germs or because of COVID or because of sickness, or I've been hurt, I don't like it. I don't like organized religion. I don't like the chaos. All the things that we've talked about, there could be a host of reasons. But the reality is, I think we are seeing a decrease, and I think the statistics are showing that we're seeing a decrease overall, just in general engagement with Christ and church and spiritual matters. Yeah, it's really sad. It's really heartbreaking to me. But this is the part of the episode where we pull out our Bibles, because I don't think we're the first culture to have to deal with people not attending church. And when I say attending church, I don't mean just being a spectator. That's not good. To me, attending church and being a part of a church is to show up and to see how can I edify my brother and sister, how can I encourage, you know, it's not so much Church isn't like Costco where you become a member and you give your money and then there's all the stuff you get. No, when you go to church, you're going to edify and you're going to be edified. But there's one passage that I find very fascinating. It's found in Hebrews 10. And if you go to verse 24, he starts off by saying, and let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works. So, here's this church, they're already struggling with some basic doctrinal stuff. I don't think the audience of Hebrews is a very mature, audience, and they're struggling with some pretty basic stuff. But here, the author, even in the midst of their immaturity, he's saying, let us consider how we can edify one another, and then he says, not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another all the more as you see the day drawing near. So there you go. Not neglecting to meet one another, as is the habit of some. Now, before we comment, and you were about ready to comment. I was. I went, and then you were like, I'm stopping you. Look, are we going to hear from a sponsor? It's good old C&D Church Supply. They have another exciting new product for all of you. I love these guys. You're busy, and it can be really hard to make time for church and public worship. Watching online is an option, but it just doesn't feel the same. And who wants to record the football game to watch it after church? If only there were a way to schedule an in-person church service that's completely customizable to your specific tastes and needs. Well, now there is. C&D Church Supplies proudly introduces church on demand. First, download our app. Then, answer our questionnaire to match your specific preferences with the church of your dreams. Everything is fully customizable, from the scheduled time and day of the week, to the style of music, length of sermon, dress of the pastor, and so much more. What if someone in your perfect church sins or acts strangely? In your church, just remove them and replace them with someone better. Yes, you can even choose the people and size of your congregation as well. Act now and get Church on Demand Kids free for the first year. That's right. You can perfectly tailor the kids programs in your ideal church. But wait, there's more. You can also receive Church on Demand Scholar for free. This service is incredible. Listen to our five-minute video by our resident scholar, Dr. Reverend Robert IV. Pay a small fee and we will make you a church scholar. Why would you want this? As a church scholar, you can now write books, advise other churches on how to do church, and point to the church we built for you as proof of concept. This is an incredible deal, so don't wait. Download the app today. Please note, C&D is a fictional company, and there's no such thing as Church on Demand. These were created for satirical purposes. Also, no Roberts were hurt in the making of this fictional ad. So, you were about ready to make a comment about verse 25. I was going to make a comment. Yeah, and then we had to go to our sponsor. I think it's really interesting, actually if you back up to the end of verse 21, since we have a great high priest over the house of God, so because this is true, Because this is the relationship that God has with us and because of the dynamic that has now shifted, coming out of, in the book of Hebrews, coming out of Judaism, coming out of all those things that used to be the case and how we had to come to God, now we've got a great high priest over the house of God. What can we do? Well, first of all, let us, verse 22, let us draw near Verse 23, let us hold fast. Verse 24, let us consider. There's so much intentionality. I know there's a great debate about who wrote the book of Hebrews, but whoever you think wrote the book of Hebrews, the author is talking about this intentionality, but the intentionality is rooted in the function and the role that Christ is playing, that God is playing, as this great high priest, and now we don't have to. It's kind of like what Paul reminds us of. You've got this newfound liberty. Don't use it for the flesh, but through love, serve one another. So you've got all this time on your hands. You've got all of this free space in your life, if you will. What are you supposed to do with it? Let us draw near to God with a heart of full assurance. Let us hold fast to confession of our hope without wavering. So we stand firm, we're approaching Christ, and let us now consider how to stir up one another to love and to good works. And so part of this neglecting, I think what's happening as people are neglecting to come to church or people are kind of not seeing church as essential is they're missing out on fulfilling a one another command of stirring up one another to love and to good works and to be stirred up. to love and to good works. I think in the future we'll probably talk about some of the one another dynamics and things like that, but there's a real reality here that says I need church as much as the church needs me because we're all coming together to stir one another up, to kind of produce within each other this love and this good works. In other words, church is a community effort. I can't just sit in my Barca lounger or my Lazy Boy, crack open a cold drink and sit back and do my thing watching it on live stream. That's not how this works. It's not how it ever was supposed to work. And so I think as we think about the essentiality, is that the right word? The essential, the essentiality, I don't know. Why church is essential, I'll put it that way before I get into trouble for saying a word I didn't mean to. When we think about why church is essential, it's not because it's a consumer activity, it's because it's a participative activity. I'm coming to stir you up to love and to good works, and you're coming to stir me up to love and good works, and together we're going to draw near to Christ, and we're going to hold fast to the profession of faith that we have. Well, we've already discussed this in Episode 1, so call back to Episode 1. If you haven't listened to Episode 1, maybe you should stop listening right now. Go back to Episode 1. Because what I'm about ready to say really is a call back to that. If you're a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ, you're part of the Church. It doesn't matter whether you think you are or you're not, whether you're a member, you're in. You're in the body of Christ. And with that, there is this expectation that's given to you by God to function with other people who are part of the body of Christ inside of the local church. So, you know, some of this probably comes from a really bad concept of how you define the word church. And we dealt with that in episode one. The church is this body of God's chosen representatives on earth who are empowered to serve one another, love one another, share the gospel, all for the glory of God. I've listened to a lot of people talk and, you know, as a pastor, There's this weird thing that happens. Everybody instantaneously gets holy when you talk to them. And they start telling you all of their deepest, they turn into philosophers and theologians. And the amount of time that I've heard people say, well, all I need is my Bible. I don't need anybody else. I don't need any commentaries. I don't need any books. All I need is my Bible. What do you think of that, Dave? How do you respond to that? How does the great Dr. Dave Dietz respond to the person who says, all I need is my Bible? Well, on one hand, I would say they're true. That's true. You need your Bible, you need God's word. That is, we talk about sola scriptura. So there is an essence in which, yes, I can find the sufficiency of Christ in scripture. So, but we're not talking about that, necessarily. What we're saying is, Sola Scriptura does not deny coming together, worshiping together, stirring one another up. So, I think to the person who says, well, I got, you know, what's the statement? A little bit of coffee and a whole lot of Jesus, or a lot of coffee and a little bit of, whatever that stupid sign is that people have, you know, all you need is. Oh, I don't know that sign, but I'm gonna make it. Yeah, it says something like, you know, all I need is a whole lot of Jesus and a little bit of coffee or something. Yes, we need Jesus, but we need one another. And I cannot look at my Christian faith, my Christian life, my Christian walk in an isolated, siloed bubble unto myself. that is part of it, reading my Bible and engaging in my own relationship with Christ, is part of this process of my sanctification, is part of this process of growing in Christlikeness, is part of how God is working, but I have to have engagement with you as a fellow believer, whether I like it or not. I mean, there are plenty of people, man, you know, we show up to church and I'm like, if those people never came back, I probably wouldn't miss them. But I even need those people in my life. I need those people in my life to stir me up to love and to good works. And sometimes, we may not think about this all the time, sometimes we're the people, when we show up to church, others are like, you know, if the Dietz never came back, that'd probably be okay. Mostly Dave. But the fact is, we all need one another. And so no, I can't just, you know, take Sola Scriptura to a illogical conclusion that was never intended in the five Solas and take it to that conclusion. I've gotta sit there and say, I cannot neglect to meet together, as is the habit of some. So clearly, in this timeframe, there were some who were making a habit of it. In other words, it wasn't just, oh, shoot, we forgot to go. It was, eh. If we go, we go. If we don't, we don't. You know, we'll kind of see how it feels on Sunday morning. Like, dude, it never feels good on Sunday morning, quite honestly. There's always a reason why you could stay home and justify it. That's right. And you know, it's that word neglect. It's not that they forgot. They forgot to assemble. They neglect. So it's a willful act of saying, I don't need to go. And if you've read the book of Hebrews, you know the argument and the people that he's dealing with, they're struggling over the definition of the gospel, over repentance, they're struggling of, well, do I have too much, I need to go back to the law to understand this, and he's going, Jesus is better. So while we might think of the book of Hebrews as this really deep book, and the argument is very, very detailed, the subject matter is very simple. Jesus is better and you're struggling with the gospel. That's a scary position. So it's not like if you neglect the church it is actually better for your spiritual life. The book of Hebrews actually says your spiritual life is already in pretty bad shape. You need to now associate with others. I would also say to the people when they say that, I chuckle to myself, and my first thought is, well if I don't need anybody to teach me, and all I need is the Bible, then why are you even talking to me about that I don't need anybody to teach me? That seems inconsistent logically. But there's this one other thing I think about too, I think of this passage we often think of as a mission passage, and yeah, it can be applied to missions, but I think it applies to the entirety of the church and what we as a church do. It's found in Matthew 28. We consider that the great commission, it's the commission of the apostles, but I think it does a really good job of kind of distilling our mission as a church. And so Jesus says in verse 18 of Matthew 28, all authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me, go therefore and make disciples. So it implies you have to be together. You have to gather together. It implies that there is this mandate from God that you have leaders who are dedicated to the spiritual life of those underneath them to make them more like Jesus. Yep. Yeah, exactly. And not only do we need each other in that process of discipleship, one other thought, and as I've thought through this, of Hebrews 10, we can make the argument, and this is not gonna have anything to do with COVID, although COVID is the great conversation for the essentialness of church, but verse 25, he says, all the more as you see the day drawing near. So we could make the argument from Hebrews 10, 25, church is more essential today than it was last week, not because of COVID, but because the day is drawing near and we should see the essential aspect of church more this week. In other words, we should see not a trending downward, but a trending upward. And the fact that we're not seeing a trending upward in church attendance and church engagement and church practice and functionality as far as people coming together and joining together means, first of all, We don't know our Bible as well as we think we know our Bible. And second of all, if we do know our Bible, we're not practicing it, we're not obeying it. So I need to be engaged in church more today than I was a year from today, a year ago. Because all the more, as I see the day drawing near, I need to be engaged in this process more. Amen, amen. And we've already discussed, the church is messy, right? It's messy. So this church that the author's talking to, we're not talking about the best church. We're talking about an immature church that's struggling with the basics. These people need to be really intentional, right? And be really intentional in their walk with the Lord and church attendance. And church attendance, at least according to you and I, is not just showing up. It's showing up to stimulate one another to love and good deed. Absolutely. Yep. Yeah. You're not checking a box. You're not just sitting in a chair. If I come in and I sit down and I don't talk to anybody, how did I stir them up to love and good works? So I think, yeah, I think we have to ask ourselves that question as we leave church. Did I stir others up to love and to good works? That's right. And I know that we normally think of church happening on Sunday, but This he doesn't give a time frame of when you do this. So this could be four times a week, you know The idea is every time you're around believers In in that local church setting you're encouraging them And you're and you almost have the idea that they're excited about it. And if they They're looking forward to engaging with other believers Well, Dave, this has been a great discussion. I really enjoyed this with my fedora on. You did phenomenal with your fedora. Well, thank you. I think it's added to the whole, I don't know, the essence of my voice this episode. Well, we could take a survey from all those who have listened to 1, 2, and 3. Did Caleb sound more essence full in episode three because he had his fedora on. His phenomenal fedora. Phenomenal fedora. Maybe C&D Church Supply could, you know, do phenomenal fedoras. Yeah, I can definitely brand that. I got a good branding. Now, so apart from the fedora, You have three kids, you have a wife, you've been a pastor in a church, now you're working in lots of churches, and you also get the awesome opportunity to attend a church as somebody who's not necessarily part of the leadership of that specific church, though you probably are. What are some of the tips that you would give to some people that they're struggling, and maybe they see the Word of God, they're convicted by the Spirit, going, yeah, church is essential, What's some advice that you would give them to help them bolster that, that church is essential, and advice for them to be intentional? Like, what would be some of that advice you would give to them? Yeah, I think we don't think about dressing up and going to church anymore like maybe they did back in the Little House on the Prairie days. But Saturday night, preparing for Sunday morning, so the intentionality of when we go to bed on Saturday night, when we put our kids to bed on Saturday night, making sure that all of the distractions that could possibly come on Sunday morning are taken care of. It might even mean, and this is gonna sound weird to some people, it might even mean having clothes picked out for the kids or even for yourselves the night before just to go, I know what I'm gonna wear. I know what time I'm gonna get up. and everything is planned out. It's not just, well, let's see how we feel in the morning. Dude, I don't know that I've ever felt phenomenal on a Sunday morning. I'm like, woo-hoo, let me get out of bed and go to church today. So I think it starts on Saturday night with intentionality, if we're just talking about Sunday services. I think it also has accountability to say, hey, I wanna have other people hold me accountable. Our oldest son just moved out and he's working for Answers in Genesis and moved up to Kentucky. And I was talking to him and his fiance about the fact that the most difficult day for my wife and I to go to church was the very first Sunday after we were married. I remember laying in bed thinking, I don't have anybody telling me I have to go to church. I am my own person. my own man, my own family, what am I gonna do?" And I remember laying in bed that morning thinking like, well, I could not go to church and I wouldn't be in trouble. Like nobody would yell at me. But we were intentional to say, you know what? No, we're gonna go. This is a purposeful, intentional decision. And then we're gonna look at removing all the obstacles from the situation. If your car is out of gas on Saturday night, go out to the gas station on Saturday night and fill it up with gas so you're not tempted to go, oh shoot, I forgot to fill up the car, I don't have any gas, I can't go to church. Because you're going to find a thousand excuses. So whatever excuses you think you're going to come up with, do your best to remove them and show that intentionality. So just some practical things. Yeah, I am in agreeance that you should remove all obstacles from your life. You know, one of the other things too that I've thought about in my life was the amount of people that schedule stuff on a Sunday. And you just go, yeah, you could easily schedule that very same thing on the Saturday or on a Friday night. And so that's some of the other advice I give people is, hey, keep Sunday free for the Lord. So I've been the man in the fendora talking to you, Dave, I know you can't see, I know our listeners can't see you, but you're looking very dapper yourself. Thank you. Thank you for noticing my dapperness. And if you can't see, behind him is the world. He's got a world. He's got a map of the world. So he's got the whole world. on my shoulders. He literally is saying no to the world every time he sits there. He turns his back to the world. Turning my back to the world. Right. I have decided to follow Jesus. That's right. And that's the kind of guy you should listen to.