It's time now for our second segment of Church and State with your host, Nathan Curtis, and his special guest, representing the affairs of the state. And Brother Shane, you're now on the air, sir. All right, and welcome back to Church and State. This is Shane Casler. I serve as pastor of Heritage Baptist Church here in Lake Charles. We're located at 3501 Ernest Street here in South Lake Charles. Brother Nathan Curtis is out of town this week. I'm filling in for him today and plan to fill in again on Thursday which is my normal day in which I'm usually the co-host. But this morning filling in for him and we've had a great first hour as we talked with Brother Ron McKinney and talked about the early days of Heritage Baptist Church and the founding of it. And this hour our guest by way of phone is Dr. Tom Nettles. And Dr. Nettles, are you with us? I'm here. Thank you. All right. And it's good to have you. Thank you so much for joining us this morning. Just by way of introduction, I'll tell you a little bit about Dr. Nettles, who he is and what we're going to be talking about. And this is some information I've got from Southern Seminary. He is a professor or recently retired professor I believe of historical theology at the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky. Dr. Nettles is widely regarded as one of the foremost Baptist historians in America. He's previously taught at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary and Mid-America Baptist Theological Seminary. PhD, I believe, from Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary. Dr. Nettles is the author and editor of many books among his books are by his grace and for his glory. Which is a book about the doctrines of grace in Baptist life and Baptist in the Bible and the book that I'm going to talk with Dr. Nettles about today is a book on Charles Haddon Spurgeon living by revealed truth the life and pastoral theology of Charles Haddon Spurgeon. Dr. Nettles, first of all, let me just say thank you for being with us. I visited with Ron McKinney in the first hour. He said to say hello to you, and he said he used to play basketball against you back in Mississippi many years ago. Is that true? Yeah, that probably is true. We couldn't get out there to shoot any hoops together right now, though, I'll tell you that. He had mentioned that. I said, well, I'll pass that along to Dr. Nettles. I think my ailment comes from shooting too many layups in practice. Well he'd want me to pass that along. What I wanted to talk to you about this morning was your book on Charles Haddon Spurgeon. I recently read it and of course I'm a great admirer of Spurgeon. I think a lot of Baptist ministers particularly those who hold to the doctrines of grace as we talked about this morning. Many of us have a great admiration for Spurgeon and we're fascinated by his life and by his ministry. And so I really enjoyed your recent book on him because I think it added an aspect that a lot of times you don't see so much which is a focus on his theology and how that affected his life. And I wonder if you just begin this morning By telling us a little bit about Spurgeon, who he was and why he's so well-known, there's a lot of people, I think, a lot of Christians who know the name. They maybe even like some of his writings. They're familiar with Morning and Evening and things like that. But they don't know a whole lot about Spurgeon and who he actually was and why he's so well-known. Maybe if you would share that with us. Yeah, well, first of all, Shane, thank you so much for having me on. It's always a delight to be able to talk about someone that I think can really encourage us edify us as we think about him, so I appreciate your willingness to spend this time on the subject. Spurgeon. He was born in 1834 in England in Essex. His father and his grandfather were both dissenting ministers. Now, that may not mean a lot for people in America where we've had separation of church and state, freedom of religion, liberty of conscience, but In England in the 19th century, the kind of situation that existed was a state church, the Church of England, the Anglican Church was established. And people who did, in conscience, could not be a part of the Anglican Church because of theological issues or some issues of ecclesiology or worship. And they would get in congregations that were called dissenting congregations. And there were certain privileges they did not have politically and in other ways. By the time Spurgeon was born, that had begun to ease a little bit, but there was still something of a social stigma on those who were dissenters. But both his father and his grandfather were dissenting ministers, and so he was reared within that context. But he was a Congregationalist, and so he was baptized as an infant. And just a couple of things that I think are so significant about his life. I know you have other questions you want to get into and we'll fill it out as we go along. But he reached a conviction probably in his early teenage years that infant baptism was wrong. This was before he was converted even. Decided that if he was converted he would be baptized the right way. And so he on the basis of personal conviction He departed from the views that both his grandfather and father had held, became a Baptist. Also, the issues of Calvinism were beginning to decline, but Spurgeon was very heavy in reading the Puritans early in his life, and became convinced that they were biblical in their theology, and so he embraced a very strong evangelical Calvinistic theology. And he was able to preach it when he was finally called to preach and began to serve as pastor. He was able to preach it with such conviction as well as passion and with such a deep concern for the salvation of his hearers that the impact he made was astounding. And the logic that he set forth of Calvinistic theology in that context of evangelism I think has had a forming power on all of those who have followed him in understanding how to preach doctrine evangelistically. This is one reason that he's appreciated so much by people who do not even share his Calvinistic theological position is because they see within him someone who had a genuine love for the souls of men and could preach evangelistically. And then he has had an impact on those who are Calvinist by showing them, giving them a model as to what these doctrines mean about the way you press the claims of Christ and the claims of the gospel on the consciences of people. Well, and along those lines, Dr. Nelson, isn't it true that Spurgeon, in his day, he was widely criticized by those on both sides of the aisle, meaning those of an Arminian persuasion, obviously, uh... didn't approve of his calvinistic beliefs but then there were hyper calvinist who also attacked him because he was too evangelistic well you're asking about the fact that he was posed by people both on the calvinist side and the armenian side those that on the calvinist side that opposed him were were sort of an official group known as hyper calvinist and we won't go into the real clear definition of what that is other than to say that There are certain aspects of their theology that made them think that it was wrong, actually, to preach in such a way that they were earnestly seeking the conversion of their heroes. They didn't believe that it was the duty of the unregenerate people to accept the gospel. And then on the Arminian side, of course, he was highly criticized for being so strongly an affirmer of the doctrines of grace in his preaching. Spurgeon didn't allow either of these to move him away from the central understanding that he had of the gospel in its clarity as a manifestation of the holy sovereignty of God on the one hand, and on the other hand, of the absolute duty of all sinners who hear the gospel to believe it. So that sort of balance that he was able to maintain, even in spite of being attacked from both sides, shows a remarkably clear conviction on his part. Well, and Dr. Nettles, can you hear me at this point? Yes, I've got you clear now. OK. We just made an adjustment there in the studio, so I think maybe we'll be in good shape now. But along those lines, just talking about the criticism of Spurgeon, I find it interesting that not only was he criticized by many in the theological world, both of a free will persuasion of a hyper Calvinistic persuasion, But he was also roundly criticized by the press of his day. I know when he first came on the scene in London that there were many attacks made upon him. And I read one from your book where someone had mentioned that you know usually ministers will try to encourage people with gentle admonitions but Spurgeon grabs them by the nose and tries to bully them into religion. And so there was a very much a misunderstanding or it maybe they understood for what he was saying and didn't like it so tell us a little bit about some of the criticisms that he faced not only from the theological world but also from the london press yeah this is one of the most distressing controversies he had in his life was the press that just attacked him just so viciously many times and they would they would send reporters into the services sometimes in a clandestine way They would take notes, and they would go back, and then they would report on what Spurgeon had said. So Spurgeon was not only the person that the religious press was following, but the secular press was always paying attention to him. After the church had grown so much during the first two years of his ministry, they had to expand it. So he moved to a large building there called Exeter Hall, which holds 4,000 people. And that's when the secular press really began to notice him with all these people coming to hear him preach. And so they launched an attack upon him that was just really vicious. Now, just remember, this guy went to preach there when he was 19 years old. So by the time he's preaching today. Yes, sir. Brother Shane, I'll have to call him back. Give me a minute, sir, and I'll be back. All right. Well, Brother Ray's going to try to Place that call once again to Dr. Nettles for talking this morning about Charles Haddon Spurgeon and his ministry in London and the nineteenth century. The book that we're talking about is called Living by revealed truth the life and pastoral theology of Charles Haddon Spurgeon and I would encourage you to get that and read it. It's by Dr. Tom Nettles and Dr. Nettles is professor of historical theology at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville Kentucky. The author of many books on Baptist history. Just to give you a few of them the Baptist beginnings in Britain volume one volume two living by revealed truth why I am a Baptist by Tom Nettles and Russell Moore Baptist modern era volume three James Pettigrew voice Southern Baptist statesman by Dr. Tom Nettles. the kingdom of god a baptist expression of covenant biblical theology by jeffrey johnson and tom ells yes brother a yes sir bruce shane i have a back on the uh... dr ells you back with us i think so uh... when i got uh... when you lost well we're just talking about uh... i i i think the last thing i heard you say you'd mention something about virgin being nineteen years old when he first came to london and just the attacks that he got from the press when he moved to exeter hall Yeah, the Exeter Hall experience is one in which so many thousands of people heard him preach in the press, but began to attack him as a result of that. They would use language like we're seeing an exhibition of prostitution in the pulpit, or they would call his preaching vulgar colloquial, varied by rant. They would speak about his content as the most solemn mysteries of our holy religion, or by him, rudely, roughly, and impiously. handled. They thought his speech was blasphemy from a parson. They accused him of oratorical tricks, daring utterances, coarse sentiments, scholastic expressions, and a claptrap style. Just on and on it goes. They said that he was guilty of insolence so unblushing, intellect so feeble, lippancy so ostentatious, and manners so rude. Overall, his style was basically pulpit buffoonery. so this is a you know this is the best ever twenty-one-year-old receiving all of them back to criticism from the secular press uh... but it didn't uh... obviously it affected him probably deeply in his psychology but from his ministry and from his conviction standpoint he didn't let it bother him well and you know what's interesting is it seems as though i mean just from my perspective studying his life you've studied a lot more in depth than i have but from uh... perspective i look at the more the press attacked him it seems as though the more the commoners of london liked him and appreciated him and came to hear him preach exactly uh... in fact he rejoiced at that he said the more they attacked me the more people it's just like free advertisement the more people come and want to hear him well i know there was something else that happened early in his life that greatly affected his ministry and uh... Some of his later struggles, we'd mentioned Exeter Hall. I believe it was at Surrey Gardens Music Hall, was it not, where there was a tremendous tragedy that took place at the beginning of one of his services. Tell us a little bit about that, if you would. Well, after the New Park Street pulpit, the New Park Street Chapel had been expanded. They got back into it. It was already too small. So they preached for a while longer, then they had to expand it again. And when they expanded at this time, they went back to Exeter Hall. But Exeter Hall began to feel the pressure of the publicity, the negative publicity. And so they closed its doors to it. They just said that they were becoming identified too much with one denomination. So they looked around for another place. And this new music hall, which was a house of a lot of entertainment venues, was called the Surrey Music Hall. And Spurgeon, though, wasn't superstitious about where you had it if you just had it in a place where a lot of people could get there. So he was determined, the church backed him to rent the Surrey Music Hall. He was attacked in the press for this also. And evidently, as a result, there were some people who wanted to try to create as much of a problem for Spurgeon as possible in moving to the Spurgeon Music Hall. And so the first service that they had, which was in October 1856. So Spurgeon has just turned 22 at this time. And they were having the first service, and it had begun. There were still some people coming in. And there were probably close to 6,000 people there at this time. And there were several people stationed at different places that had conspired to try to create confusion, at least, And what they did was they actually created a panic. They began to cry, fire, fire. And people who were moving up the stairs to go into one of the galleries heard this, and people in the galleries heard it also. And there was a virtual stampede. The people in the galleries began to come and run down the steps. There were others coming up, and there was collision, and some of the banisters broke. Many people were injured and seven people were killed. Spurgeon couldn't tell exactly what was happening. He knew there was some degree of panic, but he didn't know there had been the kind of damage and the injury. And so he tried to keep the service going, but saw it was impossible. And so his beacons got him and moved him out. Eventually, when the news came to him that this had happened, sent him into a state of real despondency. doubting whether or not he could ever enter the pulpit again. I'm sure some of it was that he began to feel perhaps this was a sign from God that he should not have gone into the Missouri Music Hall. Others, but as he began to think about this and considered the whole thing, he felt that this was not sort of that kind of divine sign. This was just an example of sort of resistance that the world would give to a clear proclamation of the gospel ministry. And so after a couple of weeks the Lord had ministered to him in such a way that he was able to come back and then he preached there and there was a very powerful ministry and many, many hundreds of conversions during the time that he spent at the Surrey Music Hall. But that so affected him that it established a deep sense of fear really virtually in any kind of situation where there were large numbers of people. And I'm sure it also impacted the way that he wanted the Metropolitan Tabernacle constructed when they came to the point of realizing they needed to just to have a new building rather than try to keep expanding the new Park Street Chapel. Well, it's when you think of what happened there at Surrey Music Hall, obviously there was malicious intent on the part of folks and there were people who lost their lives and so you might think from a human perspective well this would have stamped out his ministry I mean once this happened you know it would have died down the crowds they would have stopped coming at the very least it would have dwindled quite a bit after that tragedy but that really wasn't what happened I mean he continued on in popularity didn't he? Oh yeah yeah he came back and the Surrey Music Hall was still the people were not reticent to come as a result of that Eventually the newspapers printed what actually had happened, and Spurgeon's own communications clarified what had happened, and people were not put off by it. They just kept coming, and it was really something that puzzled the secular press as well as the more liberal religious press, that the popularity of this man was just amazing. But for you he would take advantage of all the criticism by this simply proves that it is not me that I agree with all they say everything they say about the negative and that I'm that I'm not educated it is true. I am wrong. It is true. I'm too bucolic and country. It is true. But this only proves that the truth that I that I preach and God's determination to save sinners through the simple gospel is is the power behind all of this. So he would take advantage of it simply to glorify the Lord and accept the criticism and deflect it in his own soul by saying this demonstrates that God's hand is on my ministry and there's nothing to explain it about my personal circumstances. You know you'd mentioned earlier that of course he'd grown up as a son and grandson of dissenting ministers, father and grandfather both congregational infant baptizers. He himself was baptized as an infant. and you'd mention that he'd come to a conviction early on in life that believers baptism was was biblical even before he was converted uh... he had come to that conclusion uh... tell us a little bit about how his family responded to that conviction i read a little bit of that in your book i was mom i was dead uh... had responded when he approached them about being baptized yeah he was uh... when he was a student in a One of the preparatory schools that he went to, his teacher was an Anglican, and the Anglican tried to convince him that the infant baptism of the Congregationalists was wrong because they didn't have sponsors, but the infant baptism of the Anglicans was right because they had sponsors. And you don't have anyone baptized in Scripture who cannot make a profession of faith according to the Anglican. And he said, and so we have a profession of faith made by the godparents. I thought about that all that doesn't make sense that that's not any more biblical than that hours. So he told the Anglican that was teaching this says I thank you for helping me out of this and said I've already had one wrong baptism and I don't think I'll have another until I can be baptized right. So when he was converted then immediately this came to his mind and he knew that he must be baptized as a believer and he began to write to his to his father. He wanted his father's approval. He wanted him to know what was happening. And he could not get a letter. So he began to write to his mother, almost sounding in a panic. He said, I have every morning looked for a letter from father. He says, I long for an answer. It is now a month since I've had one from him. Do, if you please, send me either permission or refusal to be baptized. I have been kept in painful So eventually he got the permission from his father to be baptized and he was baptized in the River Lark and he says at that occasion, he says, my timidity was washed away. It floated down the river into the sea and must have been devoured by the fishes for I've never felt anything of the kind since. Baptism also loosed my tongue and from that day it has never been quiet. I lost a thousand fears in that River Lark and found that in keeping his commandments there is great reward. Well his mother was of course pleased that he was following his conscience but confused that he had been baptized as a believer and he told her, he says, I have often prayed that you would be converted but I never prayed that you would become a Baptist. And so his response was, oh mother the Lord has answered your prayers with his usual bounty. Not only has he given you what you asked for, he's given you exceedingly abundantly above all that you asked for. And when you hear that, I think you hear some of the Spurgeon wit at play. He was well known for that. But it looks like we're coming up on our break here. Dr. Nettles, our guest this morning, Dr. Tom Nettles, professor of historical theology at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky. And we're talking this morning about a book that he recently authored entitled living by revealed truth the life and pastoral theology of Charles Haddon Spurgeon and enjoying visiting with you Dr. Nettles about Charles Haddon Spurgeon. We've got a couple more things I want to get into here in just a moment but first we have a station break. We're going to hear a word from Phyllis Schlafly and so if everyone would stay tuned we'll be right back. This is the Phyllis Schlafly Report. Mrs. Schlafly is a constitutional attorney, popular speaker, and the author of 20 books, including the book, Feminist Fantasies, that reveals the feminist influence on the media, on college campuses, and writing in children's classrooms. Now here's the president of Eagle Forum, Phyllis Schlafly. Illegal immigration is a big threat to our national security. The U.S. government has failed to control our borders and does not keep track of foreigners who are in the U.S. on visas. Kenneth Palinkas, president of the Citizenship and Immigration Services Union, reports that even the 9-11 hijackers entered our country legally on visas. He estimates that 5 million immigrants are overstaying their visas today and remain in the United States. There are plenty of ways for immigrants to enter legally our country, such as student visas, asylum, and visa waivers, but there's no system to make sure they leave when their visas expire. You won't hear supporters of so-called immigration reform offering solutions to this problem. Instead, they would just legalize foreigners who overstay their visas. That idea has never passed Congress, but President Obama's executive amnesty would do the same thing. President Obama has never wanted to enforce our immigration laws. His immigration director admitted, if you're a run-of-the-mill immigrant living here illegally, your odds of getting deported are close to zero. You might remember last summer's surge of illegal immigrants from Central America. Ninety-nine percent of them are still here and are being resettled at taxpayers' expense throughout our country. The unlawful executive amnesty announced last November gives 5 million illegals work permits and government benefits instead of deportation orders. The president announced this giveaway after he admitted on 22 separate occasions that he lacked the power to do that. Alabama Senator Jeff Sessions tells the whole story in his new immigration handbook. He also provides solutions Many congressmen were elected because of Amnesty's unpopularity, and now those congressmen should show the American people that they are listening. You can send a clear message to Washington on the topic of immigration and stay informed yourself by contacting your senator's office and requesting they send you a copy of the Immigration Handbook by Senator Jeff Sessions. Let both of your senators know you care about this issue by calling them directly and asking for the Immigration Handbook. On behalf of Eagle Forum, thanks for listening and join us again for the Phyllis Schlafly Report. And this is KELB 100.5 FM. And our location is located here at 113 Williamsburg Street in Lake Charles, Louisiana. And we also have at our affiliated station KELB 105.5 FM. And they're located at Parkview Baptist Church. And ladies and gentlemen, I'm going to return you back to Shane Casler in Church and State. Brother Shane, you're back on the air, sir. All right, and welcome back to Church and State. I thank you all for listening this morning. Of course, Nathan Curtis is traveling this week. He's not here, and so I'm filling in for him today. I also plan to be back on Thursday, which is my normal day, to co-host Church and State. And our guest this morning is Dr. Tom Nettles. Dr. Nettles, are you still with us? I'm here. All right. I just want to make sure we had a few technical difficulties this morning. It looks like everything's going good. Dr. Nettles is a professor of historical theology, Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky. We're talking this morning about a book he wrote entitled Living by Revealed Truth, The Life and Pastoral Theology of Charles Haddon Spurgeon. And Dr. Nettles, I just wanted to mention this. I was thinking about this. I'm a graduate of Midwestern Baptist Seminary in Kansas City. And when I was there, one of my professors was Don Whitney. I know who is a colleague of yours out at Southern. I remember Dr. Whitney in an effort, I believe, to keep all of us young preachers humble. He used to always tell us, he'd say, you know, none of you are the next Charles Haddon Spurgeon, because if you were, we would have already known it because we were, you know, of course, in our 20s. And he said, you know, by the time he was 19, he was already famous. for his preaching of the gospel so none of you are the next virgin so don't ever start thinking that you are so uh... i wanted to ask you a little bit about uh... spurgeon and uh... of course uh... a major part of your book on him is not just his life is not simply a biography but also the pastoral theology of charles adams virgin and so what i wanted to ask was uh... if you could tell us some specific ways in which is theology influenced his ministry And the reason I ask this is because obviously I think you encounter a lot of pastors in our world today who have a desire to grow a big church and so they see someone like Spurgeon and they all over this trick what was his secret how did he grow such a big church and sometimes that can be motivated by pride or it can be motivated by self exaltation and things of that nature but clearly from his theological position Spurgeon had a. a god glorifying type of of uh... theology and uh... his belief system and yet it led not to inactivity but rather to uh... the tremendous ministry in london there are tremendous needs there and uh... he led his church to meet many of those needs and obviously the lord bless the church in many ways so in what ways did his theology affect his ministry what did it lead to An excellent question. I think that's what we all want to investigate in our own lives and our own ministries is how can we be active doing what the New Testament represents is the life of the Christian while we see it flowing out of the clear doctrinal commitments that are also required by Scripture. I think Spurgeon had sort of an uncanny gift in discerning these things. It's quite remarkable to see how he implemented his theology and how it penetrated all that he did. So this is, I think, a very important idea and question you've asked. Going back to what Don Whitney would say to you men there at Midwestern, I think we have to recognize that in the providence of God, he gives gifts to the church at various times, and he'll never give those gifts again. There's only one Augustine. He did what he did during his time. God is the one who raised him up. He established theological direction that has had tremendous impact and still continues to have impact in the church. There's only one Luther. There's never going to be another Luther. We find that he came on the scene at a certain time and God prepared him providentially for his experience and his biblical exposition. and all of this and there'll never be another Luther but we still reap the benefits of what that gift to the church was and we can go on with people like Calvin and John Bunyan and John Owen and others but there's only one Spurgeon. There's probably never been a person as effective as a preaching pastor theologian as Spurgeon. I just I don't know that that could ever be challenged that he is the gift that God has given to the church as the epitome of a preaching pastor theologian who had a heart for comprehensive ministry. And it all starts with his theology, that he's utterly convinced that God is sovereign, that God saves sinners, that he does it through means that are consistent with his own nature and the sending of his a son to die for sinners, and he was very specific that the sinners for whom he's died are those that he has selected for the foundation of the world. The Holy Spirit comes to convict those people of their sin, to draw them to Christ, and to change their hearts and their affections so that, whereas before the gospel was not meaningful to them, it becomes attractive and excellent if they desire it and they place faith in Christ. and that God will sustain them. He had no doubt about the sovereignty of God. Also, though, he had no doubt that divine sovereignty in bringing people to salvation did not diminish the responsibility of all sinners to love God, to trust in Christ, to seek to be with him in heaven forever, where they would love him with all their heart, mind, soul, and strength. That's the obligation of every sinner, every human being. And that God has given to the church means by which All men can be challenged with this reality, and that the means are such in their clarity and in their power that the elect will be drawn and will be saved. So we always have those dual things in mind. Every man must believe. The gospel must be presented to all men, and the elect certainly will believe, and God's I wills and I shall will come to pass. So that's foundational to everything. Then, as he examined what Scripture says about what the Christian life is and what are the means by which people are drawn, he believed that we should, when God in his providence allows us to be in a position where we can, we should use all of those means. And so, when he hears that it's pure religion before God is to keep oneself unspotted from the world and to take care of orphans and widows in their distress. He says, all right, if we can do something to take care of orphans and widows in their distress, then we must do it. And so arising out of that, we have the almshouses that Spurgeon maintained there in the church. Those were actually begun by John Ripon some years before, but Spurgeon had them all renovated, modernized for their time. And that's where poverty-stricken widows could come and live and have a very sustainable life. He started orphanages for the large numbers of orphans around that area, around the church there, and eventually had a boy's orphanage and a girl's orphanage, but arising out of the biblical mandate and the providential opportunity to do it. People would hear that Spurgeon had a heart for this. He would get legacies that people would give to it. And then from all over England and other places where the sword and trowel was read, people would send in money and he could support that. He believed that ministers should be trained. He himself did not have formal schooling in theological education, but he still believed it was a good thing to have, and so he started the pastor's college. But there was a particular providential opportunity for this, and then support that the people of God felt it was good. The thing that was closest to his heart in all of these benevolent activities was the pastor's college. But he started a Cole Porter Society, the selling of literature very cheaply in places where there was no literature available of a gospel sort. And so there would be 70 or 80 of these men going out in different places in England, selling literature and preaching and witnessing. And yearly, there would be a gathering of these people in the Metropolitan Tabernacle, and there would be reports about their work. And Spurgeon would work hard to try to keep up the level of support for the Cold War ministry. And in all, there were eventually 66 different benevolences that had their headquarters at the Metropolitan Tabernacle. And Spurgeon knew what was going on in every one of them. And when he could, he would attend these annual meeting that they had, which means that, you know, if they're 66, this is more than one a week. Right. Sometimes that he's, that he's trying to attend. He always, couldn't always do it, but he would send a representative that he himself could not go. And so he would, he would look for things that were consistent with the biblical witness about how Christians should be involved in the world. And then the second thing that, that drove him was he knew that all of these things must serve the gospel. If the benevolence is just sort of an end in itself, where we're just going to help orphans, then he didn't think that that was specifically Christian. We are going to help orphans, and the gospel is, in a sense, completed by the social benevolence that it produces in the soul of the Christian and in the church itself. But it serves as an opportunity for the pressing of the gospel and the conscience of those who are involved in it. He was unashamed of this. He was aggressive in it. He believed that that is exactly what the church should be involved in. That if you have a benevolence, that its end result has to be for the furtherance of the advance of the gospel. And he was very conscientious about that. So those were the basic criteria. Find what the Bible wants you to do. If you have a providential opportunity to do it, go for it and make sure that it's all subdued for the purposes of gospel proclamation. So it wasn't just ministry as an end to itself, but there was a definite goal in it in terms of gospel proclamation. It wasn't just feeding the poor, taking care of orphans, but it was to point them to Christ ultimately as his goal. Oh, absolutely. And he was, he was clear about this when people accused him of sort of being Well, just pragmatic or not really being genuinely compassionate, but just sort of using this as a means to an end. He would say, yes, I am using it as a means to an end. But as to whether or not this means I've diminished in compassion, that's an absurdity. Of course, I'm compassionate. I'm trying to do everything I can to set forth before them that there are people made in the image of God who are in rebellion against him. And the greatest compassion is to present them with a message that can give them eternal life. And what is How does that show a lack of passion and when you think of you know you mentioned some of the criticisms there just makes me think when you look at Spurgeon's ministry from a from a human perspective you think was a tremendous amount of success there in terms of numbers in terms of influence in London is preaching the things that he did and yet from beginning to end throughout his life there was constant criticism that he received. I mean, there really is a lesson in that for all of us in terms of if you're going to seek to do the Lord's will, you're going to face criticism. Yes, that's true, and he felt that that was a theological lesson also. He has a pretty deep theology of suffering and what God's purpose is in all of those things. He believes that that's a part of the glory of being a Christian is that the world does oppose you. And that focuses our attention on being like Christ when he comes. I think it's like what is it, 1 John 3 that says the world does not know us and yet we know that when Christ appears we shall be like him for we shall see him as he is. Everyone that has his hope in him purifies himself even as he himself is pure. So yeah, the world does not understand what the people of God is. who the people of God are and why they conduct themselves as they do. But if we are known of God and if we have the hope and the promise that we will be like Him, then that is superior to any kind of criticism that can come from the world. The approval of God and the promise of God and the hope of being like Christ. I wonder if we could talk just a little bit, Dr. Nettles. We've got probably 10, 12 minutes left here. I wanted to transition a little bit into Spurgeon's later ministry and later life. Of course, we've talked about his early days when he first came upon the scene in London and the firestorm that he created with his preaching and some of the attacks that he faced. But in what ways, and I guess this is kind of a dual question, first of all, in what ways did his ministry change if it did? as he grew older and more seasoned in the ministry and what ways did it change or not change and then the second part of that question I wonder if you address the downgrade controversy because I know towards the end of his life he was deeply embroiled in this and he took tremendous criticism from his Baptist denomination because he felt that there was a watering down of the gospel that the church churches of london were not what they should be in terms of faithfulness that they have become worldly and some had really criticized him i think for being. Just kind of a nitpicker or whatever the case might be so in what way did his ministry change or not change as he grew older and then address the downgrade controversy if you would. Yeah. I think from the standpoint of his preaching. There have been people, of course a lot of people, who have studied the preaching of Spurgeon and they've tried to perhaps isolate changes that took place. Obviously when anyone is in ministry for as long as he was and preaching and having all the experiences he has and dealing with the numbers of people and always deflecting criticism and constantly reading and having all the the various opportunities for preaching and meeting people from different places, you're going to change. Your experience changes you. But from the standpoint of how Spurgeon changed, it looked to me like there's a seasoning and there's a maturity that comes in. But from the standpoint of basic convictions and basic manner of preaching and content of preaching, I haven't found any differences that are worth remarking about from the standpoint of thinking that there represents a major shift in theology or even in method of concept of what preaching is. You can look at his early sermons and see how he formed them and then how he applies them theologically and then how he ends up with an evangelistic appeal. And then you can look at those that he's preaching in the mid-1880s and up to the 1890s. His last sermon was preached June 7, 1891. And it's the same theological content, it's the same basic order, because he believed he had settled on something that was clear, that he always could communicate and would get across the point to the people. And the same kind of evangelistic applications at the end. It's remarkable as to how mature he was from the beginning. And so he had settled on a method and on a content and on a way of application that he could just stay with for the rest of his ministry. aspects of experience and maturity. Yes, you can detect changes and you can detect a deepening of his understanding of how many, how difficulties can come into the ministry. But as far as overall conviction and manner of preaching and confidence in the gospel and all of that, there's just hardly any changes that are worth mentioning. Now, when I say they're not changes worth mentioning, I don't mean to minimize the startling impact that every sermon bakes. It's not like that. There's just a humdrum effect that goes through this famous because Spurgeon is always new and always fresh in his presentation. There's never been a sermon that I've read of Spurgeon's in which I didn't see something that just leaped off the page with fireworks and light and And it's just like it almost takes you by surprise when he gets into one of those things. And I'm thinking, how in the world did he do that? You know, how does this man come on with such freshness? And of course, I see the legitimacy of this application is exactly right. Why did not think of that? You know, it's really amazing. Just every sermon. But also, one thing that happened, as you mentioned, is there was an increasing darkness that he felt was settling He was very positive in the early days thinking that in 1859, five years into his ministry there at New Park Street, the revival, the prayer revival was taking place in the United States. There was revival in Wales, revival in Scotland, revival in England. And so he was very positive and optimistic about what was happening in 1859. His ministry had grown so much that they laid the cornerstone for the Metropolitan Tabernacle in 1859. They entered it in 1861. He invites people who are just all the evangelicals. He invites people from the Baptist Union. They have a two-week celebration of preaching for the different groups that came in. And the most pivotal service was the one in which they did an exposition of the doctrines of grace. They really had five different preachers preach on each of the five points. of those distinctive doctrines of Calvinism. And so he was just feeling just wonderful about everything that was going on and felt the blessing of God. And this continued perhaps for another decade, though there was still the opposition that hung on. But the beginning of the early 1880s, we have this, an increasing encroachment of modernism in society in general. and in theology. And so he begins to become a little more despondent about the future and about what is happening. He begins to see the Metropolitan Tabernacle as more of an island, just trying to maintain the faith and trying to witness to those corners of darkness that are ever encroaching into England, both in the church and in society. And by the mid-1880s, he is seeing this happening in the Baptist Union. In 1887, he published a series of articles known as the Downgrade, in which he pinpointed specific doctrines that were being attacked within the evangelical churches in general, and then in the Baptist Union life. There were those in pulpits who were denying the deity of Christ, who were denying the doctrine of original sin, who were denying substitutionary atonement, who denied the person and work of the Holy Spirit, who called the whole system of imputation immoral, and all of those things Spurgeon felt were right at the heart of biblical revelation. Without those, you have no gospel. And, of course, when you begin to deny those things, also the doctrine of eternal punishment begins to go away. And so Spurgeon saw that as indicative of just how severe the loss of the gospel was. His criticism erupted then in a cause to erupt, a reaction against him in the Baptist Union and in the Evangelical Union. Also, he found little support among those churches in the Baptist Union. They accused him of making false accusations. The Baptist Council virtually censured him, and so Spurgeon resigned from the Baptist Union in October of 1887. and the rest of his ministry was spent. It was a Baptist church, but he isolated himself from fellowship within the Baptist union because of the lack of support and because of the growing modernism within the union. He even had to reorganize his pastor's college conference. The numbers of graduates out of the pastor's college had grown. They were having like four or five hundred people attend this annual conference of the alumni of the college. And he found that there were people even within his alumni that were embracing modernism and defending the right of people to preach those things in the pulpit. So he dissolved the conference and reorganized it on the basis of a more clear and straightforward confession of faith, thus excluding 60 or 70 of those former graduates. So Furchin did not, he didn't change his theology, his preaching. You read his preaching during those days. He was fervent and just as bright and brilliant. But a cloud of distress came over him as a result of the modernism that affected the Baptist Union and his own pastors conference. Dr. Nettles, we've got it looks like about a minute and a half, maybe two minutes left to go here. And certainly thank you for being on with us this morning. I've enjoyed talking about Spurgeon, enjoyed visiting with you. I just maybe in this last minute and a half, if you could just maybe tell us uh... what is kind of the enduring legacy of spurred on the what is it about virgin that we should take and that we should apply on our own lives uh... in terms of his gospel ministry uh... what is it that we should remember most about him well first and foremost i think it's if you can't engage virginity level everyone should get the book spurred for just three they'll be good for your soul there's there's they're always good for your soul for ministers to read them and learn something about preaching from them. That's an enduring legacy we can all learn from Spurgeon and his preaching and how to apply doctrine. From Spurgeon's personal life, I think we can embrace the theology of suffering and realize that suffering is not a reason to complain or to murmur, but a reason to see the love of God expressed to us and sanctifying us. This was clear throughout Spurgeon's ministry. He believed suffering came from the hand of a loving God to make us depend upon him and to make us be like Christ who is the greatest sufferer of all. And another thing is I think we can take admonition and exhortation from his life to be people of courage, to be willing to believe what the Bible says is true and to stand by it, to seek to be as loving and compassionate toward those who disagree with us as much as we can, but to realize that the Bible is our greatest friend and has the greatest claim upon our convictions and our lives. Well, Dr. Nettles, I certainly appreciate you being with us this morning. Thank you so much. My pleasure. Thank you so much for having me. And, of course, again, the title of the book, Living by Revealed Truth, The Life and Pastoral Theology of Charles Haddon Spurgeon, the author, Dr. Tom Nettles. And you can find that book in numerous places, bookstores, online, what have you. And I certainly would encourage uh... people to read it uh... tremendous encouragement from the life of spurgeon and uh... doctor nettles does a fantastic job not only of giving uh... by grok biographical picture of spurgeon but also of the theology that really drove him and so i i think all of you for listening today and uh... nathan curtis will be back next week uh... i should be back on thursday at least that's the plan and so thank you for tuning in to church and state and tune in again tomorrow Thank you for listening to Church and State on KELB 100.5 FM. It's our pleasure to present special guests to keep the Christian community up to date on what's happening in our local churches and on what's happening in our government. We urge every Christian listener to attend to be active in and to support a local church. We all need a church family. 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