The elders and I have tried to show from the scriptures where these membership covenant responsibilities and privileges come from. And now we wanted to give a time of Q&A. So I hope that all of you have the membership covenant with you just in case you need to reference it. And what we've done is we've set up a microphone up front here. And any of you who would like to come up and ask a question, please do. We have the microphone because in the recording we want to make sure that we get the question as well as the answer. So the floor is open. You may move about the cabin toward the microphone and ask any question that you like. So would anybody be the brave soul that would lead us out? All right. Auburn University. War Eagle. Is it on, Mike? Yeah, OK. Thanks. All right, so my question is kind of specific, and I don't know anybody that applies to, but when we were talking about excommunication and whether or not, what would happen if someone was excommunicated, my question, I guess, is the other way around. If someone was trying to be a member of the church, but had been excommunicated from a, like a Jehovah's Witness church or something, what would be the church's response? Yeah, you know, that's a good question. That's a difficult question, too, because obviously it depends on the specific circumstances of why the Jehovah's Witness Church excommunicated them. So the first thing I'd say is every case seems to be judged by its own merit. If hypothetically, for example, such a person was kicked out of the Jehovah's Witness Church because they thought that Jesus was Lord, then we welcome them with open arms because we believe that Jesus is Lord. So I think bottom line, whether it's a Jehovah's Witness Church, Mormon Church, which are not true churches, or even a true church, we're going to hear obviously their side of the story, the side of the story of the prospective member. And if necessary, which in most cases it is necessary, we're going to reach out to the ministers or leaders in that other church. And sometimes that happens just by the letter of transfer membership that we get from the prospective member. Sometimes the church will write in that letter some of the details of those circumstances that would make it a little bit easier to adjudicate the decision. But if those details are scant, then yes, we're gonna reach out to them and just gonna wade through the details and make the best judgment from there. So that's a good question. I wish I could give more specificity, but that's the basic approach we would go, okay? Next question. Phil, come on up. You're the next contestant. This is a procedural question. When we had Shay, and Shay was removed from membership, we didn't take a vote, so it's procedural. I'm just wondering, what is our procedure when we reach the church level? Do we vote or not vote? In a case of apostasy? In any case, what's our procedure across the board? Good question. So, let's take them one by one. In the case of excommunication, the procedure following Matthew 18 would be that the elders after a protracted period of pursuing the person and begging and pleading for them to repent if that person was hard-hearted according to step 1, 2, 3, and 4. What we would do in a specially called business meeting more than likely is we would bring our judgment to you, the congregation. We would say, It is our judgment, after spending X amount of hours with this brother or sister, that they are unrepentant of their sin, and we are recommending that this person be put out. Now, procedurally, in that situation, we would also give a chance for the person who is on trial, because make no mistake, that's what it is, we would give them opportunity to speak. I know that some of you may say, man, that sounds like a trial. That's exactly really what it is. It is a trial. And, you know, think about it. For example, in Matthew 18, what's the purpose of taking two or three witnesses? so that the testimony of what that person said when they were confronted can be witnessed and brought before the congregation so that they could testify to the congregation. Hey, we were there with such and such a brother. We went before him and he just said, there's no way on God's green earth I'm going to repent. That's what he said. You know, we were there. Here's three witnesses. We'd give that person a chance to testify, and then we would put it to the congregation for a vote. And if the congregation decided to excommunicate him, then he would not only be taken off the rolls, but he would be regarded as an unbeliever and a tax collector, and we would be called to preach the gospel to him, and he could still come. Now, that's what we would do with somebody who has gone through the Matthew 18 process. The brother that you mentioned, or the friend, I should say. Cases of apostasy are difficult because the presupposition of Matthew 18 is that you're dealing with a brother. So when somebody apostatizes, which is falling away from the faith, I no longer believe in Jesus Christ, you're no longer dealing with a brother. And so, in my opinion, I don't think you go through the same procedures as Matthew 18. So what we decided to do is just take that person off the rolls. Now, there are some churches that procedurally would say even if you take somebody off the rolls, you need to get a congregational vote. And that's something that we as elders are certainly open to. In our mind, it's kind of like, well, We didn't do anything. He did everything. He's the one that said, I'm no longer a believer. So I don't, I mean, I don't know why we would need to bring into the congregation and say, Hey, this person by his own testimony says he's not a believer. Should we take him off? I mean, I think some of you would be like, why are you wasting our time? You know, why are we calling a specially called business meeting to take an unbeliever off the rolls? So procedurally in cases of apostasy, we would just take them off the rolls. Do you have a followup question or is that, is that helpful? Okay, come on up. Yeah. All right. So in the event that it does come to a vote, what happens afterwards if the congregation decides not to excommunicate? Yeah, that's a tough one. So, in our ecclesiology, which is the study of the church and particularly church government, we believe, and I took great pains to show this in the scriptures, that the biblical model, in our opinion, is that a church is to be elder-led, congregationally ruled, and de-conserved. So when you get in that middle part, congregationally ruled, that means on big decisions such as Matthew 18, excommunicating somebody, you must have the voice of the congregation, and it must, 2 Corinthians 2.6, be the majority of the congregation. Whatever that looks like, however you slice the pie, whether it's two-thirds, 80%, whatever. Now, if the congregation, as you said in your hypothetical thought experiment there, says, no, we think that either A, this person is a true believer, or B, there has been an abortion of justice, if I can use that language, on the part of the elders in dealing with this man, and that he wasn't given a fair shake, and they don't have all the information, and they say the majority vote is that this person has to stay in, then that person stays in. Now, you can imagine how difficult that would be if it were a scandalous case that the person was just an unbeliever. I mean, think of 1 Corinthians 5, the man who was sleeping with his stepmother. If the congregation were to say, no, Paul, we think you should stay in. What many of my Baptist brethren would say is, well, now what you're dealing with is an unregenerate congregation. Now that's a very bold claim. Some of my Baptist brethren would have no problems making that bold claim. As many of you know, as you've learned about me over these three years, I'd like to be a little more cautious and a little more deliberate in making those calls, but I'm not placing it off the table. There can be congregations that by and large are hypocrites and self deceivers, and it may be a time in such a situation for a pastor to find a new church, you know. So yeah, those are difficult situations. But then there's other situations where, you know, the elders may bring their judgment, but they may say, they may qualify that by saying, you know, we think he should be kicked out, but we got to be honest, like, this was a tough case. And maybe he does need more time. We need your wisdom. And that, in my opinion, is the genius of congregational rule is that All the burden is not on us as elders, and I thank God for that. I don't want the burden of that. I mean, to put somebody out of the kingdom of God, that's a very solemn thing. I want all of us to be responsible for it, not just us as elders. So that's what I'd say on that. Yeah, come on up. If anybody else has a question, just come on up and sit down and line up so that we can make the process a little quicker. All right This one's like a weird question It says we commit to faithful participation in times of worship prayer study and fellowship with other believers to the building of the church by using our spiritual gifts so on and so forth mm-hmm, but what do we do as a congregation and as a you guys as elders for people who literally just come on a Sunday morning and they were very like if we have that sort of that we don't really have that here but if we did have a member who really never gave back it doesn't make any sense like they just came as far as like service for service or fellowship with other believers you know very rare that would ever happen or very standoffish like You as the elders, like, really the church, through our covenant, we have like this sort of standard we want to be, but then what do we do with people in the church that have no appearance of ever even having any sort of desire to try to even try to get there? You know what I mean? Right. Yeah. So, yeah, that's a good question. And it's a tough question. It's a real question. First off, I'd say if somebody is not coming to service on Sunday morning and Sunday evening, or let's just say the Lord's Day, we actually have a clause in our Constitution and bylaws that says if somebody doesn't come for four consecutive Sundays, they're taken off the rolls. Now, we don't apply that bylaw in a very strict manner because, I mean, think of, you guys all know Joe Roy. I mean, Joe Roy is on the EOD squad for the Navy, and he's hardly here. But it's not because he doesn't want to be here, it's because that he's working. And that's what we consider in reform thought a work of necessity. He's got to be away. Now that's different from the person who is perfectly able to come to service, but they just don't. And some of you know in this congregation that I or Pastor Jim or Pastor Ken have come and talked to some of you because we don't see you very often. Not many of you in this congregation tonight, but we do have talks with people who do not come to church. We do seek them out, we do have loving, I hope, compassionate and yet forthright conversations with them. And I'll just be honest, in some of those conversations I've said, look brother, look sister, let's just call a spade a spade. If you're not gonna come, then don't call yourself a member. And I'll help you find another church where you could be anonymous. I don't think it's good. I think it's unhealthy. I think it's damaging to your soul. But you're an adult, so I'm going to treat you like an adult. This is our membership covenant. This is what we expect of you. I can tie it to scriptural texts like Hebrews 10, verse 26. You know, let us consider how we may stir one another on toward love and good deeds. Let us not give up meeting together as some are in the habit of doing. You're in that habit. So I don't even see it as, you know, a liberty issue. Like, well, if you want to come to church, you can, if you don't, you don't have to. No, it's a black and white issue. You have to be in church on Sunday. And if you're not, you're sinning. And if somebody thinks that's bold, then, you know, take it up with the author of the Hebrews, because he's the one that said it. I mean, let's just call a spade a spade. If you're not going to come to church, you should not consider yourself a member. So, you know, church attendance is one thing. If somebody's not, for example, if somebody's not coming to home group, I can't go to Scripture concerning home groups and have any teeth like I can with Sunday morning and Sunday evening. There's teeth to Hebrews 10, 24, 26, whatever it is that says you need to be here on the Lord's day. There's no teeth to saying you need to be there on Wednesday night every two weeks and go to home group. So if somebody doesn't go to home group, that's fine. Do I think it's healthy? No, but they have the right, they have the liberty not to go. As far as service, I think that we could all serve more. I think we could all probably give more financially, but those are things that we leave to the individual conscience of the person between them and the Lord. So that's my best shot, Jacob. Okay, yeah. So what do you do in a situation where you have a brother or sister from another church who is continually in sin, but is not under any form of church discipline or discipleship, like they're not seeking any help in that, but you know them personally, and you know they're going through something? How do you, what do you do? Are they a member of another church? Yeah, what do you do? Is it a scandalous sin? if they're going through a personal sin. This is like a hypothetical situation, but one that I could see happening. Like somebody say, somebody who's struggling with adultery or pornography or anything, something that's like a personal sin in their lives, and they're continually doing so, how do you go about that? Well, adultery is scandalous. That's a good question. Adultery is scandalous, and if they are a member of another church, it does get tricky if they're not a member of your church. But if they're a member of another church and they claim to be a Christian, and by virtue of being a member of another church, they are accountable to the undershepherds who are over them, then you go through Matthew 18, take one, take two. When you get to that third step, which is take it to the church, since you can't take it to your church, you actually go to the shepherds of the other church. And we've actually done this. My wife and I have had to do this with family members who were claiming to be Christians, but members of another church in adultery. But here's the tricky part. Once you take it to the leaders of the church, it's then hands off. You can't do anything. You've taken it to the higher court of appeal in their jurisdiction, and now there's nothing else you can do apart from pray for them and continue to beg them to repent. So it's helpful to think of different local congregations as jurisdictions over which the sheriffs or the pastors have rule. And you just pray that they're faithful shepherds and you pray that they're gonna be consistent with the word of God. Any other questions? Good questions. Good questions. All right. When it talks about like the civil court, when you are dealing with a, I understand like between individuals, but let's say that you are dealing with like something personal that's with a business or whatever, but you know that business is owned and ran by a believer, but there, for whatever reason, there was something that wasn't done or whatever, and there needs to be a dispute settled. Would you say that that's something that would be settled by the church or that that's something that would be done in a civil court because it's a business, even though that business is fully owned and operated by a believer? Yeah, that's a that's a really good question. It's also a complicated question, because I mean, there's obviously details that we don't know. We don't know the nature of the offense or how egregious it was or was not. You know, I'm just going to I don't have the last say on this. I'm by no means a lawyer. I don't understand litigation. Some of you may understand it even better than I do. But just from what Paul talks about in First Corinthians six, if at all possible, it is it is possible to have a Christian mediator, it can even be a Christian lawyer, that would be able to enter the situation as a mediator before you get to what we call the technical litigation, and they're able to sit at a table with both sides and work through the things. I think that that's the best case scenario. And so, you might not call it the church at that point, to the point where you're bringing in office bearers from respective churches, But you are bringing in Christians, you know, a la Matthew 18, to try to bring some type of confrontation to it. And if they can't see eye to eye, then yeah, I think there is a place for litigation. But when you get into businesses, it gets a little more technical. I mean, when you talk about, like, tax code violations and stuff like that, I don't know that that's necessarily what Paul had in mind. I think Paul was thinking more on a personal one-to-one level. And so once you get into businesses, look, we have courts that deal with these things all the time. I think the last thing I'd say is no matter what you do, you want to make sure that you're trying to exude a Christian character of charity and compassion and patience and forgiveness and an unwillingness to let a root of bitterness spring up on either side. And that's where a Christian mediator can come in and kind of help facilitate that process. So that's what I'd say. Any other questions? All right. Next week, Pastor Ken will deal with the last two paragraphs on basically natural law or common grace in how we conduct our business meetings and what we do when we leave this place. But until then, the Lord bless you and keep you. The Lord make his face to shine upon you and be gracious to you. The Lord lift up his countenance upon you and give you peace. Amen. You are dismissed.