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Today and tomorrow, we're going to discover how to break the cycle of division and move past cancel culture. With today's guest, here's our host, Dr. Larry Spargimino. We are privileged to have Sean McDowell with us. He is an apologist like his dad, Josh McDowell. Sean has written a new book that is extremely timely, and I really mean that. Our nation and world are deeply divided. The chasm, I should say the canyon, is so far apart that we can hardly agree on anything with people around us, even our teenage kids, our sons, our daughters, school teachers, and so on. Open your mouth and get ready for an argument. The title of the book is End the Stalemate, Move Past Cancel Culture to Meaningful Conversation. I personally believe this book is a timely contribution. It will be a blessing to everyone who gets the book. So, Sean, thank you so much for being our guest for this show and the next show. Yeah, really honored to be here. Thanks for having me. Well, we know that America is deeply divided. There are some who are on the far, far left. It's always like we have nothing in common. It's almost like the first thing we say quickly deteriorates into an argument. There's no meaningful conversation. The thought that we can have a meaningful conversation with someone whose worldview, whose understanding of current events is so completely different than ours, is encouraging. What you're writing about, is it something like pre-evangelism? Would you categorize it in that area? That's a really interesting question, because it's not a tool to convert people. I want to be clear on that. Okay. Like, if you look at Greg Koukl's book, Tactics, that is kind of a very specific pre-evangelism book. Right, I've read it. It's one of my favorite apologetics books. You know, the cover of that book is like a chessboard. So it's how you respond to tough objections, recognize faulty thinking, stop a bully, and you advance an argument. And he doesn't say every conversation has to get to evangelism, but at least put a stone in someone's shoe. That book, I would say, is pre-evangelism. This book is broadly pre-evangelism because I think we should always be thinking about evangelism in our minds, no matter any conversation, anytime, anywhere that we go, we should be looking for opportunities to share our faith. But I would say this is kind of a way of just building relationships, loving our neighbor, being peacemakers, learning ourselves, and putting ourselves in positions to be able to share our faith with somebody because of the way we build a relationship and the way we treat them. Well, Sean, I always like to read the endorsements of a book, and I want to see what people say about it. And usually endorsements are from people who are supportive of the author and his or her work. But I was intrigued by the fact that one of the individuals who endorsed your book is an atheist. Now, that really caught my eye. His name is Adam Davidson. His endorsement begins with these words, quote, as a left-wing atheist who is a proud member of the media elite, I disagree with Sean on almost every political, religious, and cultural issue, close quotes. How did you get connected with someone who's a left-wing atheist and elitist and establish a relationship with him? He actually reached out to me maybe three or four years ago. And he said, I write, I've written for the New Yorker, New York Times, I'm an atheist, MSNBC, The Atlantic. I'm really well connected here. He started Planet Money. He's created shows for This American Life. He said, I watch your stuff and I'd love to have a conversation with you. Now, it took a while for me, Larry, to respond to him, because I'm thinking, what is this guy's angle? I don't know if I trust him in the media. And I finally reached out. and just started talking to them. I was like, hey, can I interview you on YouTube about your story? And then I had him come on my channel and I said, I'm going to give you the reigns as a journalist to interview me as a Christian evangelical. What would you like to ask about an evangelical? And one of the things that I learned is he watches, he studied religion in college. Unlike a lot of people in his world, he's just interested in religious dialogue. He kind of considers himself unique. But I asked him, I'm like, why do you watch my stuff? Why did you reach out to me? And he said, I think you treat people fairly. You have conversations with people who see the world differently and you listen. You don't get riled up. It tells you there's kind of a confidence that's there. And it's intriguing to me. And he was really bothered by the amount of division in our world and just the animosity and the cultural divide. And I think he saw reaching out to me as a way of saying, you know what, I could bridge this gap and make a difference in his world, in my world, to maybe calm the rhetoric a little bit, see if we can share a country. And interestingly enough, we're actually right now talking about writing a book together that would be a follow-up to End the Stalemate. End the Stalemate is like, how do you bridge the gap with people who have different worldviews? Now we're gonna actually do it together and go on a speaking tour together, he's going to come out to Biola, he's going to go give me a tour of all the elite media places and meet with people and just have conversations about issues that matter across the worldview divide. And the stalemate is the guide for people how to do it. I'm like, if I'm going to tell people how to do it, I better do this. So we're literally talking right now about creating a proposal and writing that book next together. That is so encouraging, and I must say, it's kind of a new field, it's a new area, and I'm sure you will handle it very well. But, you know, Sean, there are so many explosive issues around, and of course when we try to just, you know, have a conversation, sometimes, and I was a Christian, sometimes people will say to me, well, you believe the Bible. But I think abortion is right, or something like that, or I think same-sex marriage is right. Actually, when I meet a person, I don't bring those things up, but sometimes they do. How would you handle an explosive issue when they ask you, well, you're a Bible-believing Christian, what do you believe about same-sex marriage, and why do you condemn it? I would do one of two things. Either I would follow Greg Kokel's advice, where he said something to the effect of, That's a really important question. Before I answer, do you mind if I ask you a question first? Sure. Do you consider yourself an open-minded, tolerant person willing to entertain views different than your own? Now, what is everybody going to say? No one's going to say, nope, I'm closed-minded, I'm bigot. Everyone's going to say they're open-minded. So you just set the conversation up potentially for success. For somebody, when you say something they think is insane, they can't say, you're such a bigot, you're hateful. You go, wait a minute, you just said you're open-minded. Now you're shooting my view down. So that's one strategy. The other is to just say, you know what, that's a really sensitive, important topic that so often just descends into argument. I don't want to have an argument. I really want to hear your story and where you're coming from and what you believe and why. Can we get some coffee and you just tell me about yourself? Tell me why this issue matters to you. Tell me what you believe and why you believe it. And if you're interested, I'd love to tell you where I come from so we can talk about this issue, but maybe in a way that's beneficial to both of us. That's just, so what we do in end of stalemate is like, we're not shying away from the conversation. We're just saying conversation succeed in the right time and the right place and in the right manner. Let's be thoughtful about how and when we have these conversations, and if we do so, it's amazing how much more often than the opposite, they end up positive. That's a good insight. I know you speak, and I agree, because I've had the privilege of starting a church and a Christian school in Pakistan. I know, yeah. It's not really a Christian-friendly area, but there are a lot of Christians there who, of course, are very, very secretive. But like you point out, if you're going to deal with a Muslim or talk to a Muslim, the first thing you shouldn't do is to become an expert in the Qur'an because you'll get into an argument. It's to establish a relationship. It's to get the perspective of the other person. Where is the other person coming from? How do you do that? How do you kind of enter into that person's world? Well, one of the best ways is to just start with some humility and not assume that I understand what someone believes and why they believe it. And the best way to get there is just to ask questions. The Bible has a lot to say about listening before you speak. James talks about it, the Proverbs talk about it, and so I've spent so much time in my life, unfortunately, responding to questions people aren't asking, because I didn't take the time to really listen and see where they're coming from. Now, that's important to do intellectually, but the difference we try to argue in our book, and I give full credit to my co-author Tim Muehlhoff, He's a communication professor, and he actually studied how to have, in his PhD at University of Charlotte, how to have conversations across worldview divides. And let's just say a lot of his faculty advisors were secular and held views you and I completely don't hold about same views as Adam Davidson, the fellow who endorsed my book, who's a friend. And what Tim says is we don't just want to understand somebody intellectually. We want to understand them emotionally. And that involves understanding the story behind someone believes what they believe, the experiences behind what they believe they believe, the relationships behind it. And when we enter in emotionally, then it just shapes the way we communicate with them much more empathetically, much more graciously. And it just enables the conversation more often than not to continue. So true. Well, friends, I want to pause in our interview and let you know how you can get your own copy of End the Stalemate by Sean McDowell. Please call our toll-free number for your own copy of End the Stalemate, 1-800-652-1144. This is a book that every Christian needs. People in our culture love to argue. About a third of our people report that they have stopped talking to a friend or family member due to a disagreement and sometimes a heated interchange. It's called an argument. This book will help you move past the traps of the canceled culture to meaningful conversation. And I think that's what we all want. We want to establish relationships with our kids, with our neighbors, with our friends. We want to be able to at least tolerate one another, communicate with one another, and understand one another. Once again, our toll-free number, 1-800-652-1144. Ask for the book and The Stalemate. You know, Sean, you had touched on it many times, I think, throughout the book, but questions are so good. And I know Jesus asked a lot of questions. He said, which is easier to say, your sins are forgiven, or to say, get up and walk? and we have to find out what a person believes and where that person is coming from. Now, you suggest that we should ask three questions. I think this is really good. If you had to compile a list of people who have influenced you the most, who would be on the list? Now, the answer to that would give you a lot of information. Number two, is there an author or a podcaster that you find you are in agreement with? And then number three, if you could only consult one person for advice, who would it be? What's your experience with those questions? What are the different kinds of answers you might find, and how can we be ready for what the person reveals about himself or herself? So again, I've got to give Tim full credit for coming up with these questions. He's like the master at, you know, framing how to have conversations. But let me take a step back. You're right. Jesus asked a lot of questions. In the Gospels and Acts, we have 340 questions that Jesus asked. In the letters of Paul, there are 262 questions. In the entire Bible, there's actually 3,000 questions. So the God who made our brains and wants to be in relationship with us seems to communicate through two primary means. Number one, through stories. The Bible is a story, and it's full of stories. And number two, through questions. Those are three examples of the kinds of questions that people can ask. And it really is interesting to ask somebody specifically, what podcaster do you listen to and why? That's fascinating. Who would you go to for advice? That's fascinating. But what we really want to encourage people to do is become better at being question askers. It's actually a skill that you can develop. And I think about it a lot. And so I try to listen to podcasters of people who ask good questions. I think Jordan Peterson asks really interesting questions. I think Megyn Kelly, when she interviews somebody, asks really good questions. I think Joe Rogan asks interesting, good questions, and Jesus did. What I found is when I ask someone a good question, it just unlocks an entire fascinating conversation. So we were sitting down and had a two-hour conversation at my daughter's volleyball tournament with some friends there, and I just said, Tell me, I'm working on this sermon on Exodus 3 about the name of God, and I thought about how each of us, our names tell a story. What is each of your names? What's the story behind it, and what does it tell us about you? Oh my goodness, what a fascinating conversation we had that helped me dig deeper into knowing them and understanding them and connecting with them. It was fun! That's what we're getting at with people, rather than yes-no questions that are simplistic. probe more deeply, and there's great questions you can ask, like, tell me about the three people that most influenced you. Tell me about some of the most significant experiences in your life. And if you're close with somebody, you can ask, tell me about the deepest hurts that you experienced. Questions, questions, questions unlock relationships, they unlock knowledge, and really, that's even what Jesus used in evangelism. Well, that is so perceptive. I think we can all get so much out of that because sometimes, you know, when you meet someone whom you know might be very different in their worldview, it's almost kind of intimidating. And I think the natural reaction is kind of, you know, we so to speak, clench our fist or heart rate increases. Rather than smiling the way we should, we kind of frown a little bit like I'm getting ready for a battle kind of thing. How do you approach someone who might even be argumentative? In fact, you know that they're Well, I heard you on the radio and you said such-and-such. I disagree. I think that's wrong. And I'm sure because you are an apologist, your dad is an apologist, you get a lot of people like that. If people can write you an email or give you a call or whatever, what's your approach to somebody who is obviously hostile? Well, first off, I cannot respond to all comments that people send, whether it's Twitter, emails that I get daily, YouTube comments. I just can't. Yes. But one thing I do consistently is I'll just take a deep breath and I won't respond in the moment because if I do, I'm going to say something that I regret. I'm going to have to delete a tweet or apologize. And I've done that. And still to this day, sometimes I'll do it. I'm like, Sean, you even wrote this in your book. When are you going to figure it out? But I train myself as best as I can to just take a deep breath. think about and ask myself, is this worth responding to? What's the win and the benefit? Is it going to take a bunch of time and emotional energy? I have to gauge that. I don't want to get involved in conversations that make me angry that I take it out on my wife and my kid. And then third, I really remember the biblical principle that a gentle word turns away wrath. Proverbs 15, a soft word breaks a bone. And so I often think, okay, behind this, someone's been hurt, they've been mistreated, They've never really learned how to communicate. They're acting in anger. Can I respond in a firm way that just shows grace and kindness? Anybody else watching this is going to notice that if you do so. In my spirit-filled moments, that's how I really try to respond to people, just, you know, that we'd be known by our love. I think that says something that is necessary for us. I get the impression that you have a deep spiritual life. because I think when you're approached with situations like this, you have to love people, you have to trust in the Holy Spirit to give you the wisdom, and you have to always remember that this is a person. God has made this person. This person may be, from your perspective, may be out of their mind, they're off their rock or whatever. They hold the most weird views that I couldn't even think of something like that. but yet you have to have that sweetness within, and I think something like that really comes forward. I think people can see if you're really interested in them. And you sound to me like that kind of a person. Well, you know what, I hope so. That's what I aim to be, and that's important to me. Like you, and we have a public ministry, people are watching. And you know, when we make mistakes, we gotta own it, and I've certainly been there, and it's humbling, But I just, you know, I just want to be faithful to who God has made me to be. I want to be a voice of truth, but kindness to people today. And God, can you see that way? Amen. Amen. Very good. Well, thank you, Sean, for this informative session. We're looking forward to having you back for our next broadcast. And friends, please be sure to tune in to our next broadcast, and we will continue to discuss End the Stalemate. Reclaim the Art of Meaningful Conversation in a Divided World with End the Stalemate by Sean McDowell. When was the last time you truly connected through a genuine and meaningful conversation? In a world overwhelmed by discord and division, this thought-provoking book explores the heart of our argument culture and its impact on relationships, community, and society. For decades, spirited discussions about politics, religion, and current events didn't fracture bonds between family, friends, or coworkers. But today, disagreements often sever ties, silence voices, and breed fear of expressing beliefs. In the book, In the Stalemate, you'll explore the causes and consequences of today's argument culture, the rise of cyberbullying, hate speech, and verbal intolerance, and practical steps to rebuild trust bridge divides, and engage in respectful conversations. Order your copy of In the Stalemate today when you call 1-800-652-1144. That's 1-800-652-1144. You can also order on our website, SWRC.com. If you long for a return to thoughtful dialogue and meaningful connections, In the Stalemate is your guide to restoring civility and understanding in an increasingly polarized world. In the Stalemate. 1-800-652-1144 We are only 12 days away from our first Defying the Demonic event of the year. With the details of this exciting event, here's one of the speakers that'll be there, Dr. Greg Patton. Dr. Greg Patton here along with Dr. Ken Copley talking about Defying the Demonic and our upcoming series, it's actually a one day program actually, seminar Defying the Demonic in Elizabethan, Tennessee. Dr. Copley, 40 years working in the spirit world, spiritual warfare and excellent counseling of men and women by the thousands. I have been privileged to work at this 40 years and we have written a lot of material Put things together, our books are available at Southwest Radio Church, and we're going to have a great time down in Elizabethton, Tennessee. Right, Dr. Copley? I can't wait. I am so excited. Why do you get so excited? I'm so excited because I get to share that which God has taught me to others who desperately need it, and desperately need to be in a place where they can help those who are desperate. You know, that's an excellent answer. And you think, wow, how could somebody be excited about working against the enemy, a very, to many people, scary subject. They act like they're truly excited to do this. I'm the same way. To see somebody set free, Jesus Christ said that he came to set the captive free. I don't know of a greater ministry other than introducing someone to Jesus and then to help them. Maybe they've been in bondage their entire life. and to see that freedom come. I mean, what is that worth? It's tremendous. Oh, it's priceless. It's priceless. It is so thrilling to my heart to see someone be picked up by God and brought out of a patch of this disgracing grace to set them into a path of amazing grace. And God is so good to do that. He's just So wonderful. I love it. I appreciate it so much. You can tell the sincerity of your heart. I, again, have shared in the past that so many times I've sat down in counseling sessions with you and seen men, women, children set free from the enemy and something that's so needed. We are at a stage in this country, well in the world today, where evil is so prevalent And we're excited about some of the things happening in America, maybe some changes, but I believe Jesus is coming soon. If that's true, the Bible seems to be very clear that Satan's going to be working overtime, his demon's going to be working overtime, and Christians are a target. And you and I have the blessed privilege, like coming up here in February the 22nd in Elizabethan, to share how we defy the demonic through six sessions. I can't wait. I'm looking forward to sharing mine. I know you're looking forward for your three sessions and then to be able to go to answer some questions. People have lots of them. And, uh, I get excited to be able to say, okay, here's what you need to do, or here's the problem, or here's what I think is going on. And we have seen so many set free and some people saying, I want to help others just like you guys. So I'm looking forward to it, doc. Yeah, you know, we've known each other for over 30 years and I think both of us have shared our heart that we want to be able to train others in the area of warfare and be able to share what God has given to us in understanding the enemy, understanding that we're in Christ, understanding his power and protection, understanding the whole armor of God, understanding that we are in a battle. If we like it or not, I was born again into a battle and I will be there until the day I draw my dying breath. God says it's a good fight. Fight the good fight. We're there. He told us. He gave us a mandate. We need to make people aware of what sin does in their lives. Dr. Copley, as we close, invite those people to come join us in Tennessee. We'd love to see you. And if you have just a desire to take discipleship a little further to become more effective, spiritual warfare is really discipleship on steroids, come and see us. I'd love to meet you in person. Good job, my friend. That's it, February 22nd, coming up in Elizabethton, Tennessee, Defying the Demonic seminar, all day. Again, I want to thank you, Dr. Copley, for sharing the microphone today. You have a great day, my brother. Oh, God bless you, my dear brother. Join Drs. Ken Copley and Greg Patton for Define the Demonic, a one-day intensive conference on Saturday, February 22nd in Elizabethton, Tennessee. Learn how to recognize and overcome the enemy's lies, break strongholds, and guide others to freedom in Christ. This practical, faith-empowering event includes expert teaching, a question-and-answer session, and a copy of the Define the Demonic workbook, all for just $25. Registration is open, so make sure you reserve your spot today. Visit SWRC.com or call 1-800-652-1144. Define the Demonic Spiritual Warfare Conference, Saturday, February 22nd, in Elizabethan, Tennessee. Tomorrow, Sean McDowell will continue to help us break the cycle of cancel culture. Be sure to tune in by downloading our free SWRC mobile app or by subscribing to our daily Watchman on the Wall podcast. Watchman on the Wall is a production of Southwest Radio Ministries and is supported by faithful listeners like you. Visit SWRC.com.