Welcome to Watchman on the Wall, a daily outreach of Southwest Radio Ministries and SWRC.com. Today, Sean McDowell will continue helping us break free of cancel culture, and then a little later, Josh Davis will have an exciting preview of our latest Prophetic Observer newsletter. Watchman on the Wall is here each day to bring clarity to the chaos and remind everyone who tunes in that God is still on the throne and prayer changes things. Would you help Watchmen on the Wall grow by inviting others to tune in? They can listen on the radio or through our SWRC mobile app. They can also access the program when they subscribe to our podcast. Thank you. Thank you for helping Watchmen on the Wall expand and reach even more people with the clarity of the good news of the gospel. Now, here's our host, Dr. Larry Spargimino, with today's guest. We're back with our guest, Sean McDowell. We're discussing his much-needed book, And the Stalemate, Move Past Cancel Culture to Meaningful Conversations. And let's be honest, friends, we all want to have meaningful conversations with someone even who's completely different in worldviews, especially when that person is a family member, a friend, or a coworker. I know so many Christians today they're Bible-believing, they go to church, but somehow something seemed to happen to their kids. Their kids are just a million miles away, and yet they want to keep relationships open. So for this very important book, your own copy, call 1-800-652-1144. I'll give you that number because I know you're going to probably maybe not be able to hear the promo. 1-800-652-1144. This is the book that you will want, and The Stalemate. This volume will help you end The Stalemate and revive the art of meaningful conversation. So as we start the second interview, Sean, thank you so much for being with us once again. Honored to be back, and thanks for a great question, by the way. You referenced the fishing vessel Andrea Gale. It was put in a movie a couple of years ago. It was a boat that was destroyed because of a megastorm, a perfect storm. There was a confluence of meteorological conditions that produced this unusually vicious storm. What are some of the conditions culturally that have produced a perfect storm of confusion in our society today? What's going on in our society? Sometime in the past five or 10 years, this phrase cancel culture started popping up. And basically it's when somebody says something that someone else thinks is misguided or wrong or offensive. You use whatever means you have to shame them, silence them, get them canceled on social media or canceled in their job or just personally shamed again. So I started thinking, what is cancel culture and why are we in this moment where people treat others this way. And the perfect storm is just, it's probably an overused analogy, but it makes a point that like, when these multiple storms come together, you get kind of a mega storm. And I think we're at that cultural moment. So a few things are going on. Number one, there's a lot of people who are just hurting and relationally and emotionally broken. We see this with marriages. We see this with depression. We see this with kind of the drug opioid epidemic in the States, the level of happiness that people report and loneliness. People are hurting. And I think it's been said a lot that hurt people hurt people. If we're broken in our life and we don't deal with that brokenness appropriately, it's going to manifest itself somehow in our relationships, which often involves things like canceling other people. Another factor of this that we write in the book is just how divided we are in worldviews. So I did a program recently with a friend about how just within the Church, there's a difference. So you go back 10 years ago, and basically Christians were like, if you hold the line on natural marriage, we're all on the same team. Now we're divided over whether people should identify or not as gay. Now we're divided over whether or not we should go to a same-sex wedding, whether you should use a preferred pronoun. These kinds of issues are dividing the Church, and they're much more nuanced. And it's not just in the area of sexuality, it's in the area of, like, vaccines and immigration. There's just so many issues within the Church and outside that are dividing us. The third thing we say, the obvious one is social media, that's the elephant in the room, is that social media is actually built to reward in terms of likes and retweets and views. If you provoke and incite and insult and shock, it's like more people are going to watch it. And it actually is built, like if I try to have a voice of like, let's calm things down and be reasonable. Well, that doesn't, you know, get the same attention on social media. And so oftentimes Christians just fall into that trap for a range of reasons, and social media just fosters this cancel culture. I think the final one, which is really why we wrote the book, is just we've lost the ability to communicate. We don't know how to ask good questions. We don't know how to listen well. We don't know how to find common ground. We don't know how to believe the best in other people. We don't know how to discover, like, a worldview beneath what somebody believes. We just don't know how to do these things. And so you put those pieces together, and there's probably more factors that we missed that just add to this perfect storm of cancel culture, division. Of course, politics plays a role in this today. And I think that explains why we're at this cultural moment. Very insightful answer. Well, just imagine, I'm sure maybe you've had a situation like this. You have kind of a friend, maybe an acquaintance, and you have different views, different worldviews, but you're really establishing a relationship. You just feel you're moving in the right direction. Everything, you understand him, he understands you, you're not at war, you certainly don't agree with the person, he doesn't agree with you, but you wanna cultivate the relationship. And then this friend, maybe is a lady or a girl, they invite you to their same-sex wedding or a marriage ceremony. And I know that's the idea is, well, if I go there, I'm endorsing it, but if I don't go there, I'm gonna hurt the feelings of this other person. I've established a relationship. I've had this happen a few times. Basically, my position is that person knows where I stand and I don't think my going to the wedding would weaken what he believes about me. But how do you handle that situation? And I know it's almost like whichever way you do whatever you do, you're gonna be condemned by somebody. So how can you maintain a friendship with such a person and still keep your sanity and keep your friends on the other side of the line? Yeah, I mean, I have a lot of compassion for Christians who see it the way you do. I have a lot of friends who are like, I want to stay in a relationship. If I'm invited to a same-sex wedding, somebody knows me well enough to know where I stand, so they know I'm not endorsing it. I land a little differently on this one. I think there's also the public component of other people who see Christians there, not just the individual who's getting married. If it was an individual private ceremony, it might be different. But I tend to think that a wedding is a public celebration of a union, and I think my presence means something. And I just, Jesus dined with sinners, but I just, everything I know about Jesus and Paul, I have a hard time believing that they would go to a same-sex wedding, given the nature of what marriage is and how clear the Bible is about same-sex relationships. So I think Jesus and Paul did everything to stay in relationship with people, but would not compromise something as sacred as marriage, and as sacred as sexuality. And I think the loving thing to do, given like 1 Corinthians 6, is like, if someone practices same-sex sexual behavior, that person is not entering into the Kingdom of God. I think this is a point with a friend to just say, man, I love you, I'm so honored you would invite me to your special day that I'd be on your list when you have a lot of people to invite, like, means the world to me. And I hope we can stay in a relationship, and I hope you'll understand that I'm trying to be authentic to who I am, just like you're trying to be authentic to who you are. But given my deep beliefs about who Jesus is and the nature of marriage, On my conscience, I can't go. That, to me, where it's time to be clear like that, but that's just where I land on it. I think that's a very reasonable response because, you know, you're trying to be reasonable and you're treating the other person as being reasonable. And if you put it that way, if the other person really claims to being reasonable, then he will respect your feelings on that issue. I think it would be very important that you continue the relationship if that's possible and don't let that be, you know, the thing that becomes the divide where now you are at war with one another. So I think that's certainly a good answer and a valid approach because publicly there are people who are watching and everything that a public person does is public and will get people talking and having different views of that. I agree. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was thinking, you know, there's a way that we can defend a position that's very antagonistic. But I think what you said, what you pointed out is just the opposite. It's not antagonistic. You're putting it on yourself and you're just expecting the other person to respect you for your personal beliefs. So what's wrong with that? My principle is to be as charitable as I can be. without violating Scripture or my conscience before the Lord. As charitable as I could be to believe the best in others, to be kind with others, I'd rather get burned by being kind and believing the best than being overly critical and harsh and find out, oh my goodness, that's on me. I have been burned doing that, but I think when it's all said and done, If I approach it the way I described to you, and somebody says, you know what, this relationship is over, and you're a bigot, and you're hateful, not that that's fun or easy, but there's a certain sense of like, you know what, in my heart before the Lord, I was as gracious as I could be. And maybe God would use that firm opposition in that person's life, that I treated him graciously, to pull him out of that relationship. If I err on the side being gracious but stand firm on Scripture in my conscience, it just allows me to have a clear conscience before the Lord and others that I've tried to do my due diligence, to be a peacemaker, to be faithful to Scripture, to love people, and then let the chips fall where it may. And by the way, this morning I was reading with my son in John 16, my 12-year-old son, to read the Bible, and Jesus is describing to his apostles, he says, you will get to the point where people will kill you. thinking they are following God's will and doing what is right. That's a reminder that we've got to do what is right, but sometimes it's going to come at a big, big cost. Well friends, I've enjoyed reading the book, End the Stalemate, and I am enjoying this interview. Communicating with people is really important, especially with people who are very, very far away from the Christian, theistic worldview. But you can end the stalemate and have a meaningful conversation with people and learn all about what we're talking about. Please give us a call, 1-800-652-1144. Sean, we often hear that Acts chapter 2 presents a good model for witnessing today, but I think we need to remember this. Peter's audience had basically the same worldview that he had. I mean, these were Jews. They were essentially believers in God. They believed in the written Word of God, and they believed in the coming Messiah. And I've often heard, you know, well, Acts chapter 2 is a good model for dealing with a lost person. What's your view of that? You know what, I think it's important to look at the context of a passage. I mean, in Acts chapter 2, there's people from all around kind of the diaspora who have come to Jerusalem, and they hear the message in their own dialect. I don't know if every single one was necessarily Jewish or not, I'd have to go back and look more closely, but clearly Paul's ministry in Acts and Jesus' ministry was first to the Jew, then to the Gentile. And I think the way we reach Jews and Gentiles, there's overlap, but there's also some differences. So in Acts chapter 17, Paul goes to Berea, and what does he do? He pulls out the Scriptures. Reasons from the Scriptures, because they have that common ground. His message at Mars Hill is a little different how he approaches and makes that case, not just assuming that they hold the Scriptures as authoritative, but finding common ground with his audience, even quoting their poets and philosophers, that they're looking for God, but this God has made himself known. So we do have to contextualize our message depending on who we're talking to. Right, I think that is important. I think you're writing about personal conversations between individuals, relationship kind of thing, but what about political issues? even candidates to the national election. Some of the ideas of progressive candidates will simply destroy a nation. And also, when is there a time to get into apologetics, where you are actually trying to convince the other person? I know that's not the topic of the book at this point, but There is sometimes when you feel that a person is really coming close and coming to understand, and yet there's the sense that there's that common view that, well, you Christians don't know very much, you don't have a reasonable defense, the Bible's full of mistakes, on and on and on. When is it the right thing to do, and how do you know when to get into, what should I say, an apologetic mode, where you're trying to marshal arguments to nicely and gently prove that you do have a case and that you are not unreasonable, not some religious wacko that's out of your mind and emotional and no reason behind it. When is it appropriate to maybe take that extra step and go beyond where you are trying to actually let the person see the truth of what you believe? I think this is where wisdom comes into play. So who is the conversation with? Somebody on an airplane is going to probably be a little different than a family member who I'm going to be in a relationship with a long time. The setting might play a difference here at the Thanksgiving dinner table versus going out to coffee with somebody. Somebody's openness. Sometimes I can tell somebody's just not really open and interested in what I think in the Gospel, and other times I sense that somebody is open. So it takes wisdom to dance between the two. I was doing an interview maybe, I don't know, six or eight months ago with a friend of mine. He's an atheist, really smart guy. He's a lawyer. And I started kind of implementing the principles from End the Stamina. I was trying to get behind the people who shaped him, his life, his experience. And because he's a lawyer, he just kept making an argument and advancing his case. So I shifted. I'm like, you know what? He's not interested in this backstory. We're going to debate God and morality." And so I shifted into that, partly because that's what interests him, that's what he enjoys, and it was a way of just honoring and respecting him. And also, I was like, on my channel, I'm not just going to give somebody a free pass and let them make this case without responding to it. And so I pivoted. And there's other times where I find, like, I'm in an argument here, I go, you know, I'm advancing a case, and I don't think this person is actually really interested in hearing this case. Something else is going on. So I'll step back and I'll just ask probing questions and listen. So what Tim and I are not saying in this book is everybody has to approach every conversation this way. I tell people, read this alongside tactics. Sometimes you're in an evangelism encounter. Sometimes you're in a debate. Maybe it's politics. Maybe it's worldview. Other times we're just trying to love and listen to somebody and build a relationship and go deeper. You need to have the tools to do both and the wisdom to figure out which one is most applicable in that time and that place. Now what about meaningful conversations with other self-proclaimed evangelicals who have some very, very different views and doctoral beliefs? In fact, on page 66, you mention one study that shows that about half of a study group believes that God learns and adapts to various situations. More than half believes that God accepts the worship of all religions. There are, you know, you've got Arminians, you've got Calvinists, you've got people who have different eschatological views, you meet some people who claim to be Christians, maybe they are Christians, maybe they're Roman Catholics. What do you do when you're with a mixed group? Because I know so many times on the mission field, like even in Pakistan, you'll meet some Christians who come from some widely divergent views, and well, you might have a few things in common, not very much, How do you have a conversation and a relationship with them without getting into the nitty-gritty of, well, I disagree on this, you disagree on that? I try to ask myself, what's the big issue at play here? What hills are worth dying on? And am I nitpicking on issues I wouldn't want somebody to nitpick with me? Right. I mean, I recently had a fellow on who defines himself as a progressive Christian. But he has left the theological reservation, for lack of a better term. I mean, he says that Jesus has sinned, he has a very different view of the authority of the Bible, and thinks, your understanding of mine is completely mistaken on this. A few issues came up in that conversation that were side issues. I'm like, you know what, that's interesting, but we agreed to talk about these passages, and so I held his feet to the fire on those passages, and I stayed focused on what we agreed to and what are the bigger issues and ignored secondary stuff. If I'm in a larger conversation with somebody, I don't want to be the guy who's like, wait, that's wrong. You know, that's mistaken. And I also get frustrated when people are like, you know, they're following this rabbit trail and that rabbit trail and that rabbit trail. So I'm just asking myself, okay, what's the key issue that's here? What matters most? And I also ask myself, is this an inside issue amongst Christians, or is this a dividing issue with non-Christians? You gave the example earlier, Calvinism-Arminianism. Of course, that's an in-house debate. But I think you also mentioned, you know, when people say that God accepts people of other faiths, I mean, sure, you can be a Christian and believe that and just be confused, But to me, that's not open to debate. The Bible is very clear that Jesus is the only way to get to God. So when somebody says that, I'm like, oh, this is a much more substantive issue. I'm not going to jump on that person and say, Heretic, how can you say that? I'm probably going to say something like, hey, I'm really curious. You said God accepts all religions. Tell me what you mean by that, and what words of Jesus make you think, or Paul, that he's okay with people of all religions. That's what I'm going to lean into, and I think it's more substantive, even in a mixed audience, than, say, the Calvinism-Arminianism divide, which is in-house. Well, Sean, thank you so much for these interviews. You're a great apologist, of course, and a tremendous speaker, and you have a passion for reaching people. I think that is commendable. Larry, thanks for having me on. Thanks for reading the book and asking great questions. Seriously, well done. This was fun. Reclaim the Art of Meaningful Conversation in a Divided World with End the Stalemate by Sean McDowell. When was the last time you truly connected through a genuine and meaningful conversation? In a world overwhelmed by discord and division, this thought-provoking book explores the heart of our argument culture and its impact on relationships, community, and society. For decades, spirited discussions about politics, religion, and current events didn't fracture bonds between family, friends, or co-workers. But today, disagreements often sever ties, silence voices, and breed fear of expressing beliefs. Order your copy of In the Stalemate, and you'll have practical steps to rebuild trust, bridge divides, and engage in respectful conversations. Order In the Stalemate when you call 1-800-652-1144. That's 1-800-652-1144. You can also order on our website SWRC.com. If you long for a return to thoughtful dialogue and meaningful connections, End the Stalemate is your guide to restoring civility and understanding in an increasingly polarized world. End the Stalemate. 1-800-652-1144. Josh Davis comes now with an exciting look at the latest issue of our Prophetic Observer newsletter. The Prophetic Observer is a monthly publication of Southwest Radio Ministries. Each month we try to highlight something that's happening in the world and show what God's Word has to say about it. We want to understand God's truth for our present day and how to make sense of all the chaos that's swirling around us. And we understand that God's Word is that bedrock foundation that we turn to and look to to understand what thus saith the Lord. And so for this month, we have a timely conversation with Pastor Larry Spargiomino and one of his guests that was right here on Watchman on the Wall Radio. That'll be a featured article in the February Prophetic Observer newsletter. And I've also written a article And I'm going to share some teaching based off of what I've written with you in this segment today. You know, America has really entered a new chapter, and that's the understatement of the year, isn't it, my friends? Well, it's like we've started a brand new book. And President Donald Trump opened his inaugural address by saying, the golden age of America begins right now. And his pledge to put America first in the world stage drew a lot of applause from the crowd that was gathered in the U.S. Capitol Rotunda. And so we see a seismic shift in the American political landscape, and many Americans are hopeful that common sense will prevail, that the economy will strengthen, that the country will be a safer place to live. But there are some Christians that seem to be teetering on the edge of idolatry. When they speak about President Trump, they seem to put him in terms of almost a messianic figure. When they talk about America's destiny, it's like the kingdom of God has come to this world right here, right now. And so it seems like all their hopes are anchored in the White House. But the American church will do well to remember that our ultimate hope is not anchored in politics. Our ultimate hope is anchored in the Lord Jesus Christ, and in Christ alone is our hope found. And so this is not another Christians should stay out of politics kind of a rant. No, it's a call for Christians to remember our highest priorities at this critical moment in history. And I'm afraid that a lot of Christians are going to become complacent during this season, that we're going to sit back and breathe a sigh of relief and say, shoo, we don't have to worry about globalism, shoo. We don't have to worry about artificial intelligence, shoo. We don't have to worry about this and that and the other anymore because of who's in the White House. Hey, we need to take advantage of this moment where we are. And that's what concerns me, that this moment in American history will be wasted if we, as the church in America, take our eye off of the Great Commission mandate that Christ has set forth for us. And so we've got to seize this opportunity that God has given us to be the salt and the light that He's called us to be. And it's not the time to sit on the sidelines, dear friends. The world needs God's truth right here, right now. So church has got to remain a clarion voice in this generation. There are hungry souls all around us who are searching for God's truth. And guess where they can find those answers? In God's Word, and only in God's Word. There is a great spiritual battle for souls that's going on right now. It's as fierce as it ever has been. And so will we, as the church here in America, step up to the challenge that is before us? And I think that there is a chapter in the New Testament that gives us such clarity in this moment. It gives us such focus on where we need to be in this moment. So the church has to engage in today's spiritual battle with grace and truth. Jesus was the personification of these qualities, and Peter had watched Jesus' perfect blend of these traits firsthand And now he's calling the church to keep growing in their relationship with Jesus and also their ministry as they keep sharing his grace and truth with others. And my prayer is that the church will continue to seek Jesus and will seek to minister effectively for him in this generation. May the Lord strengthen us to stand firm and to share his glorious gospel only for the glory of God. Maranatha. If you long for a return to thoughtful dialogue and meaningful connections, Sean McDowell's book, In the Stalemate, is your guide to restoring civility and understanding in an increasingly polarized world. Order your copy of In the Stalemate today when you call 1-800-652-1144. You can also order on our website, SWRC.com. End the stalemate. 1-800-652-1144 Tomorrow, author Wayne House will help us have a deeper understanding of Scripture. So be sure to tune in by downloading our SWRC mobile app, or by subscribing to our Watchman on the Wall podcast. Watchman on the Wall is a production of Southwest Radio Ministries and is supported by faithful listeners like you. Visit SWRC.com.