Welcome to another edition of Confessing Our Hope, the podcast of Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary. As usual, I'm your host, William Hill. Today is February 9th, 2016. This is broadcast number 101, and today we're going to be sitting down and talking with Gary Bates. He is the CEO of Creation Ministries International and the author of Alien Intrusion, UFOs, and the Evolution Connection in Gay Marriage, Right or Wrong, and it's that second title that we're going to spend a little more time talking about with him in just a minute, as we continue to do various interviews leading up to our 2016 Greenville Spring Theology Conference that'll be held March 8th through the 10th right here in Greenville, South Carolina. It's conducted at Woodroof Road Presbyterian Church. And that's been there for many, many years, and it's a fantastic facility. It's a great opportunity for believers to get together, fellowship, listen to outstanding lectures, preaching. And so if you don't know anything about the conference, I would encourage you to go to our website, gpts.edu. There you can find out the information that is needed if you would like to attend. It is reasonably priced compared to many other conferences and one that I think you'll thoroughly enjoy, especially the topic this year, which is on marriage, family, and sexuality. and i don't need to say this to most of my listeners uh... but this is an extremely important topic in our climate our culture today especially in the in america but everywhere really uh... the subject of marriage and family spending it's being eroded at its base and so this is what this conference is yet designed to bring more awareness and understanding and biblical truth to the equation of what god's design for marriage is and so Get excited about the conference if you can't come pray for it and pray that the Lord use it to his glory and the furtherance of his kingdom well Gary it's great to have you on the program As I told you off air I jumped out of a plane late last night. I jumped into a car drove back from Atlanta I'm back now in Greenville, South Carolina after being in the Midwest for four or five days and I So I'm kind of on Midwest time, so it's really only nine o'clock in my life, and I don't know where you are. I don't even know what that area code is. But anyway, it's good to have you on the program, and I look forward to talking with you. No problem. Good to be here. So, Gary, you're the CEO of Creation Ministries International. Maybe we should maybe start there. What is Creation Ministries International? What does it do, and what kind of things is it seeking to promote? Sure. Well, the ministry has been going for over 35 years. We're what I'd like to call an information ministry and that is that we produce information produced by our PhD scientists, our specialists in the area of origins, particularly creation versus evolution and everything that stems from that. So when we look at the book of Genesis, We have a clear plan of what God made. And for example, today you might think, well, why is somebody who's involved in creation ministries writing about or talking about, you know, the issue of gay marriage or homosexual marriage, for example? Well, the reason is, is because it stems from a counter, if you like, to what God clearly made in the book of Genesis, which was one man for one woman and as affirmed by the Lord Jesus Christ. And just on that, I should say, you know, we go last year in the U.S. alone, we went to 369 different churches, and that's what we do. We go out to churches to try to inform people, let them know they're not on their own, because evolution is obviously taught in our public education system, high schools, elementary school now, and colleges to the exclusion of everything else. So it's very, very difficult for people to hear any information that supports, not just biblically but even scientifically, the biblical account of creation. We have six offices around the world. I think, to the best of my knowledge, we employ more scientists than any Christian ministry in the world. It's not a side issue. Just leading into what we're going to discuss, I often say to people, You know, in the church, outside the church, we talk about, you know, what are described as the three big questions. You know, where do we come from? And of course, to my specialist, there are some people saying it might even be aliens these days. But, you know, where do we come from? Why are we here? What's our meaning and purpose to life? And what happens to us when we die? Well, I'd like to point out that the origins issue, what you believe about where you came from, is the single most important and foundational issue that goes to determining a person's worldview. So, for example, if evolution is true, which basically says we're just a giant cosmic accident, we're nothing more than just evolved pond scum, then there can't be any ultimate meaning and purpose to our lives. And the decisions you make obviously in this life are going to affect where you spend eternity. So if there is no meaning and purpose, we're just a giant cosmic accident, when you die, there's nothing. They put you in the ground, they burn you up, that's it. But of course, if the Bible's true, if God's creator, he sets the rules. There is meaning and purpose to my life and yours and everybody else's, and the decisions you make based upon that are going to affect where you spend eternity, either heaven or hell. That's right. So the origins issue is key. And I wanted to preface saying that because I think we have to lay that foundation in terms of what we're going to talk about now, which is this gay marriage issue. Absolutely, and I think you're absolutely right. It is so critically important. I've read somewhere or heard someone tell me that if it were possible to debunk the early stages of Genesis or the entire book itself, really it would erode the entire foundation of the Bible itself. And whether that's true or not, I happen to think that's probably true. But when we're talking about, as your conference uh... lecture subject uh... spells out it it's titled gay marriage right or wrong and and as i mentioned the author uh... i'm not one of these people that prefers the term gay uh... i i i uh... some background there i i i it was an operations manager for a company that was uh... thirty percent of my staff was was homosexual and uh... that was a challenge uh... and many fronts as a christian uh... but um... but i know what they mean by the terms and they borrow terms that are necessarily offensive uh... to avoid these things but homosexuals what they are and so i've always preferred to call them that so why why gay versus homosexual what's the is there a difference uh... well of course there is so i i'm like you i would prefer to call it what it really is uh... but at the end of the day uh... you know our job as christians is to win people over to christ And those who define the terms kind of play the game. Let me give you an example. It's like the area of natural selection in science. Evolutionists say natural selection is evolution. And they use a bait and switch in college and say, look, we see creatures change over time, therefore evolution must be true. Well, creatures do change over time. Dogs only ever change into other dogs. Frogs don't turn into princes after a kiss from a beautiful girl. So I think there's actually power in using their own term and their own arguments against them. So I can say, well, you believe in natural selection? Let me show you how nature doesn't select anything. How, as a result of design that's intrinsic in what God created, it allows a creature to survive and adapt in different environmental niches around the world. But it doesn't give you the power to change apes into humans, dinosaurs into birds. And so similarly, we're not the ones who have defined the term. We're just having to deal with the consequences of it. So I'd say, well, you want to call it that? Let's call it that. But the statistics will show, for example, there's nothing much really gay about it. And also when it's defining, you know, gay as in homosexual orientation, I'd like to point out that what's happening is we're not redefining marriage even by their own standards as a man with a man or a woman with a woman. The minute we've said and turned around and said it's no longer a man and a woman, what we've actually done is we've undefined marriage. So if you're using the term gay as a celebration of a relationship between a man and a man, woman and woman, hang on, you've just opened the door to everything. Would you say it's then acceptable if it's one man and five other men? And so on and so forth. So what we've done and what the Supreme Court has done really with their decisions lately, and in every Western country in the world, is we have actually undefined marriage. And so gay marriage, as they call it, is going to be, I believe, the tip of the iceberg to come. because they argue about discrimination and human rights, etc. Well, why can't I marry another man if I feel that way or if I love him? Well, Drew, would it be okay if I loved your wife or somebody else's wife? So love is not the criteria as well. And so using the term gay is a celebration, we believe, of emotions and love for one another. But I'm making the point, it actually will fail on all of those accounts because they've opened the door to basically everything. Yeah, well said, and I think you're absolutely right. It does lend itself to the question of what about all these other issues that, you know, maybe right now, socially, culturally, we look at with a little bit of repugnance, but yet you're still saying that, really, if I want to marry my tree, why can't I? Or why, you know, if I like my mailbox. We've got a situation. in this country where obviously we're allowed to abort unborn children. And there's even been calls by so-called bioethicists to allow us to kill children up to three months of age because they would say that those children up to three months are not self-aware, therefore basically they don't have any human rights and this leads back from an evolutionary perspective born out of an atheistic worldview that human beings while we're in the womb, it's just a throwback to our revolutionary ancestry. It's been disproved for over a hundred years. Haeckel's embryos, they were often known as, the scientific term is that development recaptures our evolutionary history. It's called ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny. But here's the issue, if we then say that, then we're being inconsistent. The same bioethicists are actually saying that because on the evolutionary scale, we're closest to the apes. They've actually been advocating civil rights, or if you like, human rights, to apes. So, you know, why not marry a chimpanzee? I'm sure Michael Jackson would have, you know, been up for that, etc. As I said, we've just opened the door. This is the tip of the iceberg. You know, they think, the gay community believe that they've, the homosexual community believe they've won an important battle. And even as Christians, we've kind of thought, ah, well, just let that one go. But I think we are heading down an incredibly dangerous road with all of this now. We've got so much information in the booklet that I co-wrote with my colleague, Lita Kosner, gay marriage right or wrong and who decides. We have enough information now, enough statistics to show, for example, the outcomes of children who have been brought up in same-sex relationships and it's a disaster, an absolute disaster. They have higher rates of dysfunction, sexual abuse, crime, drug use, simple things like less likely to hold a job, lower levels of income and so on and so forth. Imagine a child brought up in a relationship where there's more than one parent for example. I mean, we're just going to exponentially multiply the problems. Yeah, it doesn't. Well, if those tuned in today, we're looking for a really encouraging discussion on a subject that is not encouraging at all. Well, anyway, it doesn't paint a very rosy picture, certainly, of things to come. But it really, for me, as an interviewer or someone who tries to at least think about the other side of the equation, at least to generate some discussion, What about the argument that says, you know, why don't you Christians just let us be and let us live our lives the way we want to live our lives, and we'll let you live your life the way you want to live your life? What is wrong with that statement, if there's anything wrong with that statement? Well, God obviously does give people a choice to follow Him or to not follow Him. And even as Christians, we have a choice to either obey God's commands, you know, if you're in me, You know, you'll know me by their fruit, for example. So once we again go down that line, let's, for example, look at some of the justifications that have been given. And what I call these are the stereotypical iconic arguments that define the debate. But before I do, you know, if listeners here are hearing me rail against the idea of homosexual marriage, et cetera, I want to point out that the book we've written is actually written in a very, very loving tone because the first thing we need to recognize is that people that have these desires, I don't believe they're faking it. While we might say it's a choice, if you look at some of the research and some of the comments, even from those who've left that lifestyle, they have said it absolutely, in inverted commas, burns within them. we may say that in some respect, there's some orientation. And the reason I mention that is because, for example, what if I said we found some orientation, some genetic predisposition in people to murder? Would we say, well, look, I'm born that way, therefore I can't help myself, just leave me alone to live my life? Or what if we said it was to steal? We have to look at the bigger picture and say, well, what are the social outcomes of letting you have your way? And I mentioned before that with homosexual marriage and homosexual relationships, homosexuals have a much, much greater risk of disease, health issues. They're more likely to suffer abuse at the hands of their partners. They have higher rates of breakup in their relationships, and so on and so forth. So, you know, God gave us laws and moral commands actually for our own benefit. You know, they're not just a bunch of steadfast rules because he's some ogre and he doesn't want us to have any fun. They're there for our own benefit, and it gets back to, ultimately, who is the authority? If God is creator, whether I like it or not, I'm going to stand before him and be accountable someday. And homosexual behavior is really no different to any other sinful behavior. And I think as Christians, we tend to often fixate on, if you like, the sexual sins, but there are many, many sins that God prohibits. Of course, we might say the outcome of some of these sexual sins, even if it's something like adultery or whatever, obviously, as opposed to eating too much gluttony, have greater problems or will cause greater problems in the wider community. That's the issue. It's not a matter of allowing you to do what you want. If we start down that road, where do we stop? Yeah, you can't stop. There's no, there's no objective line by which we base any of our behavior and actions. I want to read something to you. It's just a statement that I actually just jotted down as you were talking as it just sort of prompted me to think about the consequences. You've been talking a lot about the consequences of some of these studies that have been done. And as I've mentioned already, that I've been around this community probably more than the average person, having managed a large staff of the homosexual community in a workforce, work environments type situation. But you've talked a lot about these studies and these consequences. Would you then agree that the negative consequences then prove the fallacy of the behavior? Well, yes, again, it depends upon your worldview. As a Christian, I would say yes, because I can define what is right or wrong. Now, if I'm an evolutionist and a non-believer, I can define for myself what I believe is right or wrong. In that community, they don't have any logical, consistent basis for morality. so they can choose what they want. Now, I'm not saying an evolutionist or an atheist can't be moral. He can, you know, in inverted commas, be moral and, you know, he could love his neighbor as himself, but he doesn't have a logical, rational basis for that in an atheistic, secular or evolutionary worldview. And I have to go back to this because when I mentioned before about some of the arguments that define the debate, You won't see those arguments naturally flow out of a consistent Christian worldview. Let me give you another one, and this comes up all the time. They appeal to nature. They say, well, animals are homosexual in the wild. Now, what are they really saying? Well, human beings are just evolved animals, so if the animals do it in the wild, there's nothing wrong with us doing it. But again, let's use their own argument to show that it fails. So if you're appealing to nature or what they believe is evolution. And I have to be a little blunt here, so I apologize to your listeners, but it's actually a bit of an urban myth because in the wild, there's no actual sex takes place. So for example, you might see a lion, a male lion, jump on another male lion, but it's usually as an act of dominance. serving his dominance over another male in the pride or you might see animals exhibit that behavior in captivity where they don't have access to a normal mate. But if you can understand what I'm saying, there's no actual sex takes place. Now in the evolutionary scenario that they're appealing to, it's well known, it's commonly called survival of the fittest. Well, it really means eliminate those who are less fit It's all about reproduction. Evolution is all about, over millions of years, me producing more and more offspring to outproduce my competitor. And so, if you're appealing to nature, homosexual behavior fails on that score. Yeah, because it can't reproduce itself. Yeah, that's right. It's self-refuting. So, again, it gets back, as I said, to that worldview that there's no God, no creator to be accountable to. Therefore, I could you know, what is good for me? What is what is what is right for me? Yeah, and as you were talking about the whole issue of worldview, I mean we here at the seminary we obviously have Apologetics classes and dr. Tony Curto talks much. He's a presuppositionalist. I'm a presuppositionalist but worldview comes up a lot in our discussions and and it seems to me that those in the that advocate for gay marriage homosexual marriage and And in all the different arguments that you've already established and laid out nature and evolution that at the root of it Of their views in order for them to live in the world though however they have to do to to even love their mate homosexual to To have a job to live in the society that that is that God ordered and ordained They have to borrow from my worldview the Christian worldview in order to accomplish that would you agree with that I? Yes, they do, because when we look at what God made, it's not a situation of a man being better or a woman or vice versa, but God has given us roles. He created man for a specific role. He created woman for a specific role. And then again, one of those roles was obviously to reproduce. It clearly says that. Go and subdue the earth or go and fill the earth. to reproduce. Homosexuals can't do that. So again, they've got to look to the opposite sex to be able to help them to do that anyway. There's again, a massive inconsistency. And again, if you looked at genetically, and again, sorry to just to be blunt here, but we have to talk about this, that a male and female sexually, physically have organs that complement each other to be able to do that job. you know, females, female and females, and males and males, do not. And when we look at that complementary design, it's obviously come about not as a result of processes over millions of years, it's come about because God created, designed, and made it that way. And you know, here's a good example. If you looked at Mark 10 6, Jesus was being questioned about marriage. Not gay marriage, obviously, but he was questioned about marriage. And his response was, as a complimentary passage in Matthew, he said, have you not read? Read what? The scriptures. And he says, at the beginning of creation, he made them male and female. And here's the next interesting bit. Therefore, what God has made, let man not separate. So clearly, Jesus' basis for marriage was what the Creator had made. And as I said, as a ministry, we specifically deal with showing the fallacy of evolution. And today is one of the most exciting... I mean, I've been doing this for 25 years, but in this current day that we're in, this is one of the most exciting times ever, I found, to be a biblical creationist, particularly in the area of genetics. because we're showing incredible complexity, design, programming in the cell, in the nucleus of every cell in our DNA. And at the end of the day, what defines a man and a woman is programming, design, and that programming and design could not come about by random chance processes over millions and millions of years. We don't need to really go far into that. Most of the listeners are going to be like, absolutely, of course. We're running a little short on time. I promised you about 30 minutes, and I'd like to try to keep my word in that area. And obviously, the title of your talk at the conference is sort of one of the, well, on the internet, they call it clickbait, where you read something, you're like, oh, well, what's the right answer? So let me click this link, and I'll take me to this thing. And it's really not anything about that. lecture is going to deal with this question in a more thorough nature, of course. So let me just flat-out ask you, so is it right or wrong? Well, of course it's wrong. I'm a presuppositionalist. I believe the Bible's true. I believe God's Creator. And I would say to Christians listening that I recognize and, you know, I think I've spoken over 70 churches last year, and increasingly I'm having Christian families come up to me telling me their children have left the faith and they've gone into same-sex relationships. In fact, one of the reasons I wrote this booklet, and I didn't want to write a heavy book, I just wanted to write a nice lightweight booklet that deals with the debates, is because I recognize that Christians themselves and Christian families are struggling and dealing with this issue. And what happens, Drew, is it's the same way if we think the science of evolution is so strong, what the church has been doing is compromising. We've been looking at scriptures, coming up with very inventive theology, trying to fit millions of years of evolution into the Bible. And in the same way, for parents, it's so hard and so painful for them to consider that their child might be outside of Christ and salvation because of their choices, their lifestyle choices, that Christians start looking for passages in Scripture that say, well, you know, I'm really not all that sure the Scripture's that clear about it, and so on and so forth. And I said earlier, at the end of the day, this is just about a sin like every other sin. The problem we're having in society is what we're doing is we are not calling it for what it is, and we're justifying it. And we're not doing the homosexual community any favors by compromising. You know, I wrote an article a few years ago too, I called it, um, you know, gay marriage, a big stick to beat the church with, because increasingly this is a line in the sand issue for Christians also. We've already had situations in Europe where pastors have been prosecuted, not for preaching against homosexuality, but for making a pro marriage stand from the pulpit in their own churches. because they've been regarded as being discriminatory in their conversations. Now, we've already seen situations in the U.S. where we've had Christian businesses that are being prosecuted because of their faith, not wanting to bake a cake or send flowers to a homosexual wedding. So this is, in one sense, a form of the church being muzzled. And if we capitulate on this point, at least our right to free speech and what we believe about it, that's the line in the sand. What will it be next? This is only one issue. We'll get to the stage we won't be able to object for anything if the courts or legislation decides in a rule that Christians disagree with. So we've got to always get back to what the Bible says That's got to be the basis of developing our worldviews. And the good news is, even for the homosexual community, for people and families who are struggling with this issue, there's hope in the gospel. We need to love these people in the same way that Christ did. I understand it's not easy, because obviously many people think the lifestyle is abhorrent, but God loves them. And they can be saved and they can turn away from their sin and their lifestyle. And in our booklet we have many, many examples of people that have done that, including many of them very, very strong advocates and leaders in the gay community. They've found hope in the gospel, have been saved, and with God's help have been able to turn away from their lifestyle. Yeah, you talk about loving them and all the aspects that come that fall out from that the difficulties the rustling i was uh... just reminded of uh... yesterday i was in denver and i was sitting in a hotel obviously denver broncos won the super bowl uh... and so i was in denver so he can only imagine what it was like and um... and i was in this hotel and uh... we were in the little breakfast area the hotel my wife and i and and there were obviously uh... homosexual individuals present dressed in drag different just you know the word of war it's i mean uh... a port that was that that was my reaction i i i was so i want to get out of this room i don't want to be around this i did i feel like i go i got to go to take a shower i felt bad and uh... but then i had a realize you know that probably have the wrong attitude uh... and and you know i disagree entirely uh... my attitude about the uh... of of hatefulness or or uh... something that would bring shame or reproach to the gospel, but prayer and hope that my own heart would be able to find a way to minister to people in these situations. I've known families that have lost children to the homosexual lifestyle, personally. And, well, if you don't know one now as you're listening to this program, just hang on a few years. You're probably going to run into people. And this issue of persecution for pastors who take a stand on these matters, uh... coming to a town near you uh... in america in america I think this whole subject is so incredibly vital, both from a theological perspective, but from a practical perspective. I was going to ask you a few questions related to that, but you actually just covered both of my thoughts as I was seeking to conclude. How do we respond to the trenches? And I think you more than said it. We need to be praying about this matter, we need to be praying for our pastors in this matter, and we need to pray for ourselves that our response We draw a line, it's right, it's wrong, we stand by the truth of God's word, but at the same time we are not the stumbling block, the cross is, and try to maintain that as we deal with this. It's hard, it is very difficult. My own daughter who gave me actually the idea for this book, if I could just mention, just as a heads up to Christian parents listening to this, My daughter, she's graduated now, she's a medico, but she was at college here in Atlanta. She came home one day and she said the subject of gay marriage came up in one of her classes and she said, Dad, even the Christian kids turned around and said, isn't it okay if people love each other? And so, as I said, there are stereotypical arguments that define the debate. And unfortunately, many of our young people today, their thought process is guided very, very much by emotions and feelings. So this is why it's important for us at home, as parents, as teachers and leaders, to, one, equip our families to be able to defend their faith. And when we do that, out of that, I believe, will flow that logical, consistent worldview. And that ultimately comes from having the Bible as our authority. absolutely well well said and and i appreciate all the comments really that you've offered and i hope the listeners you know that that they take these things to heart uh... uh... it it is a serious issue it is eroding our culture uh... what you don't have to go very far to see that uh... i don't care where you live uh... i'm i just came back to the midwest and it's they talk about it there and talk about everywhere And it's on the minds and the hearts of people, especially in the church. And how do we respond? And what are the answers? Well, the Word of God has the answers. And so we need to get back to that and understand that standing for God's truth isn't always easy. And in fact, it's rarely easy. But it's got to be done to the glory of His kingdom. So Gary, it's been great to have you on the program. I look forward to your lecture with great anticipation, and I hope Those that are planning on coming to the conference who are listening to this are even more now, more intrigued and interested in hearing a fuller 50-minute or so discussion on this particular subject of gay marriage, whether it's right or wrong. Obviously, that's clickbait. We all, as Christians, know what's wrong. But it's more to entice you to listen intelligently to the arguments that exist out there and how to deal with them. uh... so i look forward to it to lecture that'll be on uh... research in the schedule march eighth about three o'clock or so it's one i guess you'll be uh... speaking so um... so look for two but thank you for being on and and talking so candidly uh... with the listeners with me uh... on this very important subject now our trip richard right and i get the largest second while i wrap up just real quick i just let me know what's coming up on the program next week we'll have doctor put the back on the program to uh... I do his regular monthly feature, Faith in Practice, and it's the 21st time we've done the questions from the listeners. You write in, he answers them on the air. We do them live, typically, and so that'll be next week. I look forward to that. Then on March 4th, Danny Hyde will be on to talk about a new book that he had written first and second letter of Thessalonians, and then Dr. Michael Morales will follow a week after that on his new book, Who Shall Have Stunned the Mountain of the Lord. So those are things to look forward to. We have other things being lined up and always looking for new topics and guests to talk with. And so if you want to know what we're doing, you can go to our website, confessingourhope.com, and there you'll get information, show notes, materials, resources, that kind of thing. as well as all the archives of every broadcast we've ever done here at the seminary. And so let me just take just a moment to say how thankful I am. I've been doing this podcast for probably four years for the seminary, pretty much my entire time here, and I'm very thankful for the opportunity I've had as a host to do this and to meet people, talk with people that I probably never would have had the chance to talk to at all. And so it's been really a blessing for me, and I hope as a listener you've been encouraged and edified by this program and it's encouraged you uh... more importantly uh... not just for information sake that's nice but uh... it's it's got your practical relationship in your experimental piety as you walk with the lord jesus christ that's that's that's the essential issue and so that's what we're always trying to do here so we do thank you for listening we do thank you for listening to this program uh... very important subject so until next week thank you for listening to Confessing Our Hope, the podcast of Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary. And God bless.