I just, it's almost amazing to me. I mean, there's gotta be some reason behind this thing. And I think maybe God just wanted me to go second instead of first today. So, but I'm glad to be here. And you've heard from a real spiritual warrior, Mark, you know, just filled with a lot of information that last hour and God bless him, good stuff. And Marcus gave us a good overview last night. I wanna approach this really quite different for the listeners today because, When you think of somebody out in life, let's say they're a Christian now, and they, gosh, I need some help. Well, you need to see a disciple, or maybe you need to see a counselor, or maybe you should go to a deliverance ministry. What you need is inner healing. You see the confusion? And we got people who specialize in any one of those, and the big one in our country is counseling. In fact, it's sad to say that if you went back 40 years ago, If you had a problem, you went to see your pastor, your rabbi, or your priest, and that all started to disseminate around. And all of a sudden, this huge rise of so-called Christian counseling, most of which was pretty much secular in this orientation. And let me just say from my heart, this has been on my heart ever since God brought me into this kind of a ministry, is that I really did want a holistic answer. And last fall, I presented American Association of Christian Counseling, and I presented at a discipleship conference. And I recorded for a local church. They invited me to do it, did it for nothing. You can see it on YouTube. It's called an Integrative Worldview that Heals Wounds and Sets Captives Free, where I bring all four disciplines, inner healing, deliverance, counseling, discipleship, together as one ministry. Let me share a couple passages with you. 2 Corinthians 4, verse 1, Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we receive mercy, we do not lose heart, but we have renounced the things hidden, because the shame, not walking in craftiness, or adulterating the Word of God, but by manifestation of the truth, committing ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God, not adulterating the Word of God. Whatever I had to come up with when I started this journey years ago at Talbot School of Theology, I said it had to be true. Had to be true for all people, all time. Whether I believe it or not, it doesn't change truth. And truth is an absolute thing because God Himself is absolute because God is true and He never changes. Another passage I think is critical for this is 2 Corinthians chapter 7, verse 1. Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. Flesh and spirit. It's kind of like asking the question, when is my problem psychological or when is it spiritual? I personally believe that's a false dichotomy. It's always psychological. There's no time when my soul isn't involved in the process. And frankly, it's always spiritual. There's no time when God is not here. God is omnipresent all the time. And there's no time when it's safe to take off the armor of God, the possibility of being deceived, accused, and tempted. That's just a continuous reality. Now, if I can accept that, I'll stop polarizing into one ministry, emphasizing one aspect over another. And so I'm going to try to present to you a holistic answer. And I think to do that is try to bring certain languages groups together, because I found spiritual warfare folks have a tendency to use language that doesn't seem to quite relate. It's kind of like binding and loosing. And it's kind of like, well, no counselors ever use that. Most disciples don't ever use that. But the simplicity of it, the Greek scholar at the time, A.T. Robertson, said it just means to forbid or to permit. Say no to this, say no to that. We renounce the things sin and dies. What does renounce mean? I say no to that, I say yes to this. There's the lie, there's the truth. The early church, when you made a commitment for Christ, you face the West and say, I renounce you, Satan, and all your works and all your ways. Then they'd face the East and make their professional faith in Christ. Now, why that's important, in fact, one good pastor said, I don't particularly like the word renounce. And I said, well, it helps people make a definitive statement. Because I would come across all kinds of people and say, well, I guess I believe that. But I still believe. Well, folks, if they say that, what do they still believe? And there are some things where you come to a point, if this is true, that's not true. Let your yay be yay and your nay be nay. There comes a time when you have to make a decision. Is this true or is it not true? Is this right or is it wrong? You know, I cut my teeth early on as a believer by A.W. Tozer. I think he's my favorite author many, many years ago. And he made this statement, the idea that this world is a playground instead of a battleground has been accepted in practice by the vast majority of Christians. The worship growing out of such a view of life is as far off center as the view itself, a sort of sanctified nightclub without the champagne and dressed up drunks. Oh man, God help us if that is true. I think the best way to explain where I'm at today is to share with you my own personal journey. When I left the pastor to teach at Telma School of Theology, I went there as a learner. And I was really seeking answers. I came across people in the church that I didn't have adequate answers for. I believe Christ was the answer. I believe truth has set people free. But in many ways, I really didn't see what the Bible seemed to promise and offer. Where's the new creation in Christ? Where's the old things passed away and the old things become new? And so I started this class. And that 10 years that I taught there, I went through some incredible paradigm shifts. I told you in the introduction last night, I said, You're looking at a classic westerner. I was an aerospace engineer. I thought there was a natural explanation for everything, natural answer for everything. And then when I came to Christ, I mean, all of that started to dissipate. And my mind was renewed. And books came out of nowhere I never saw before. And suddenly, I had the mind of Christ. And things seemed totally different. But seminary at that time in my life had not helped me understand the reality of the spiritual world at all. So I offered this Master's of Theology elective. And God started to bring people to me. In hindsight, I think the reason was I never charged. But they would come and I would get stuck. And I'd say, you know, oh God, you know the answer. I don't know the answer. And I was very honest with people at that time. I just simply said, I don't know the answer, you know, but I know God does. And the Bible says, if you lack wisdom, stop and pray. So I stopped and prayed. I remember sitting there one time for about five minutes, 10 minutes seemed like, waiting upon the Lord. And then one day I started to think, hmm, you know, I'm asking God to tell me so I could tell that person that would make me a medium. Why don't I have them pray? And within a year's time, my whole ministry, almost like it did a 180, it was so transforming to me. I went home and sat down and I said, what are the issues that are affecting my own personal relationship with God? I kind of come to the conclusion myself that true mental health is a true knowledge of who God is and a true knowledge of who we are. And if you don't think that's true, go into some psych ward someplace and ask them about their understanding of God themselves. You're going to find everyone has a totally distorted concept of God, totally distorted concept of themselves. And by this time, I had discovered for myself who I was in Christ, what it really meant to be a child of God. And so that became foundational for me. And when I sat down, I said, you know, I'm going to write out some simple petitions where these people would pray. And I kind of sat on that for a while. And one of them was just asking God who it is I need to forgive. And so I kind of pulled these sheets of paper out and handed it to these people. And I said, you talked about your mom and dad. Just ask God to reveal to your mind who it is that you need to forgive. And as soon as they say that prayer, I said, any names come to your mind? about 20 names come out. And I started to do that with all the other issues that we have in life. And about that time, I was starting to think in terms of, you know, this whole ministry reconciliation and what genuine repentance is. And I started to realize something. I said, whenever I sat with another individual, there weren't two parties present. There were three parties present, always. God is always there. And it's like a triangle. And God is at the top of that triangle. And I'm gonna encourage you. I wanna help folks. We stay away from counselor or whatever else, because if you say you're a counselor, you can be sued as one. And they're in a choir. They're coming in asking for help. Now, I don't know a single thing about this person, but God knows everything about them. There's one thing about that person's life God doesn't know. And now, if you think about it for a moment, here's this triangle. When I sit with another person to help them, God is present always. And every side of that triangle is a relationship. Now, the most important one for me personally is my own personal relationship with God. I mean, that's critical. I gotta be right with God myself. If you wanna lead somebody through the steps to freedom and you're not right yourself, you're gonna find out doing it. And so every time I help another person, I clean my own house and it does it all the time. So I'm very concerned about that. And it's also very important. how I relate to that other person, to love them, to be kind, to be patient, to listen, to hear, to be a good listener, to be an encourager, et cetera. Now, what's interesting about that is, so much of what we see in ministry today, especially in so-called Christian counseling, is they don't have a triangle. They got a straight line. It's just me trying to help you, as though God isn't present at all. Now, can you learn something from that? Well, you can get things like Carcass model where you learn to be accurate in your empathy, congruence, genuineness, concrete. It's just pastoral skills. There's nothing wrong with that. The intention is that I am going to try to seek this relationship with you, this intimate relationship where you're able to disclose to me your entire life and share with me what's going on in your life. Now, let's say you're the best of the best and you establish this trusting relationship and this person just pours out their life to you and then you explain based on that with great precision why they're all screwed up. So what? They're still screwed up. It's just interesting to me, you know, there's some value in that. Somebody understand that I can explain to you. I don't want to explain people. One man said, the difference between you and me is I want to explain the world. You want to change it. I said, well, thank you. I appreciate that. I said, and I've asked all around the world, I said, how many would share all the dirt in your life just for the purpose of sharing it? Nah, why would I want to do that? Well, how many would share all the junk in your life to get some explanation why I'm all screwed up? It's really the funnest thing to watch because it's true all over the world, too. They kind of go, oh, no, maybe. And I said, how many would be willing to share all the dirt in your life to gain some explanation as to how I could actually resolve it? And everybody's hand goes up. The difference here is profound. Now, understand something. I'm sitting here with a person. And ask yourself the question, who is responsible for what? Has God got a responsibility here? Have you ever tried to play the role of the Holy Spirit in another person's life, like your spouse? Did that work? Or even your children, for that matter? No. Have you ever tried to assume responsibility for somebody else? Well, you won't think, so I'll think for you. Does that work? Can you confess for another person? Can you believe? Can you repent for another person? No, you can't. But you can help them see. Now, if we had a perfect balance in that. Assume responsibility, allow God to be God. Now, when I sit down with another human being, God is present. There's a role that God and only God can play in that person's life. And I promise you, if I try to play that role, I'm going to mess up the whole process. He's the convict of sins. I'm not. I don't have to point out sin in people's life. I haven't done that in years. I don't even attempt to do that. Nor do I tempt by hearing their story that I can totally explain that person or know the roots of their problem. But God does. God knows the roots of their problem. He knows the foundation behind that. So why not ask him? And you say, why don't you ask for that person? Why don't you have that person themselves? Now, this goes back to the first thing that God showed me. what it was for me, myself personally, to be a child of God. What does that really mean that I'm alive in Christ? What Adam and Eve lost in the fall was life. What Jesus came to give us was life. That life means your soul is in union with God. That's true of every believer. He who has a son has a life. He who doesn't have a son doesn't have the life. So test yourself to see whether the Spirit of God is within you. There's a lot of things in life that aren't black and white like that, but I'll tell you the one thing there is. You're either in the kingdom of darkness, you're in the kingdom of God's beloved Son. You're either in the flesh or in Adam, or you're in Christ. You're not in either one. It's one or the other, folks. And so test yourself to find out whether or not that is true for you personally. And so I started to look at scripture in this sense of, what is each individual's responsibility? What role do I play? What role does God play? What role does the person that I'm trying to help play? And all of this, in one sense, is trying to seek a more complete answer, that I've helped you get rid of a demon, but is that a complete answer? And for myself personally, I've discovered, no, that's going to bring some release. But it doesn't necessarily deal with a lot of issues that are still critical between me and God. And what are those issues that are critical between me and God? It was brought out, for instance, I think both had shared earlier, that Satan demanded the right to sift Peter like wheat. What right did he have to do that? Well, if you go back and look in the context in Luke, They were arguing amongst themselves who's going to be the greatest in the kingdom of God. Now, what right did he have? Well, why did Lucifer get kicked out of heaven? Wasn't it pride? Pride comes before a fall. And so, God, you kicked me out of heaven. Why won't you do the same thing for Peter? Do you see the problem? And what's interesting about that is Jesus didn't say to him, no, no, that ain't going to happen. He said, when you've turned again, when you've repented, strengthen the brethren. Oh, Lord, I'm willing to go to prison for you, die for you. Today, you'll deny me three times before the cock crows three times. And it actually happened. He lost control. It was pride. And rebellion is what kicked Lucifer out of seven. So if you don't deal with pride and rebellion, then you're in the enemy's camp. You're in his territory. You're giving him a right to demand the same thing of God that was done to him. Nothing confusing about this. And so when I start looking at that role relationship combination. Now there's one place in scripture that clearly says what you're to do if you're sick or suffering. And that's James chapter five. And doing doctrine ministry classes in the past, these men and women have all had a master's of divinity, five years of ministry. So they've had languages, they've had experience, they know their Bibles and that kind of stuff. And I'd have them give me about a five-page paper exegete in that passage. And they'd spend all the time on two things, trying to figure out what in the world the oil was. And then they would take a look at the role that prayer has to play. In other words, the righteous, the effective fervent prayer of a righteous man will fail as much. And why do they do that? Well, because if somebody called me, I want to look at what my responsibility is. So I better have, you know, the right oil available. And I want to be prayer. And you can just feel the pressure build up inside you, because if I'm a righteous man, my prayer should be effective. But that's not how the passage starts. The passage starts by saying, if you are sick or suffering, let him pray. Oh. Now, why is that in that order? Because I can't do your praying for you. Again, I'm dealing with believers here. We're all children of God. We all have the same acts as your father. I cannot do your praying for you. Don't get me wrong. I believe in intercessory prayer. But that's not to replace an individual's responsibility to pray. Think of it this way. You're a father. You have two children. The younger brother is always going to the older brother. Go ask dad if I can go to the movies tonight and have 10 bucks. Now, you're a good parent. Would you accept that? Once you tell that older brother, go tell your younger brother to come ask me himself. Can we have a secondhand relationship with God? No, we can't. Does that kind of thing go on in our churches? Yes, it does. Unfortunately, we just hope, you know, we're looking for somebody else to do my praying for me. You know, if you hold iniquity in your heart, God doesn't hear me. I'm holding iniquity in my heart so God doesn't hear me. Maybe you'll hear my pastor. So pastor, do my praying. No, the answer is get rid of the iniquity. get rid of the necklace. So anyway, um, I started to look at that. I said, I wonder how much this has changed. Let's turn this around and realize what I'm trying to do is to help this person. Cause I can't repent for them. I can't believe for them, but I can help them. I can help them do those kinds of things. And my role is really a ministry of reconciliation to remove the barriers between their intimacy and their intimate relationship with God. And, um, It's a corner like my whole life kind of became full circle. Then it goes on to say that if you confess your sins, he's faithful and just and whatever else. And he said, now, then the effective prayer of a righteous man avails much. But who does God put that responsibility back onto? If you confess your sins to him, on that person, we'll never see health, wholeness, in our people's lives until we help people understand essentially that is their responsibility. I can't assume it for you. I can't eat for you. I can't exercise for you. I can't diet for you. I can't do your praying for you. I can't repent for you, but I can help you. And then the person who will do that, who will remove their barriers to the intimacy with God, then watch how effective my prayer is. I can tell you a lot of answers to prayer, folks, but not until they personally got right with God. And that is our ministry. It used to be the role of priesthood is to help people connect people to God. And so then the other issue is, OK, then what is my role? And what plagued me at that time was because I I cut my teeth really on spiritual warfare with Mark Bubik's two books, The Adversary and Overcoming the Adversary. In fact, when I taught that class, that was my first required text, was for five years for that matter. And so anyway, the other issue was, if we understand this world properly, that it's not a playground, it's a battleground. that you look from Genesis to Revelation, it's a battle between good and evil, father of lies, spirit of truth, false prophets, true prophets, father of lies, and the Christ and the Antichrist, et cetera. And we're in that battle whether we like it or not. And when it comes to spiritual warfare, the issue, the issue is authority. Who has the right to rule? That was dominion was initially given to Adam and Eve to rule over the birds of the sky, the beasts of the field, the fish of the sea. But when they sinned, that sin separated them from God, and they died spiritually, not physically. They lived nine hundred years, but they died spiritually. The soul was no longer in union with God. And the devil became the rebel holder of authority. He's the god of this world, the prince of power of the air. He's the ruler of this world. I don't call him that. Jesus called him that. And so the real question has to be solved, who has the right to rule? And so in order to prepare the church for the coming ages, and you read through the Gospels, one of the most defining changing of guards, because initially Jesus said, come follow me. So that's all he did was follow and observe and watch. What Jesus demonstrated throughout the Gospels was his superiority. over the natural world, floods, whatever it was, and over the spiritual world. Totally, authority over all. And then he chose the 12 and gave them authority and power over demons. First thing he said to them. And then the next chapter in Luke, he chose the 70 and sent them out. And they came back and said, Lord, even the demons are subject to us. He said, don't rejoice in that. Rejoice in the fact that your name is written in the Lamb's book of life. In other words, don't focus on the problem, focus on the answer. Know who you are, know what it really means to be a child of God. And so then you come to the Great Commission, go into all this world and make disciples. It should be illegal, immoral for any pastor or anybody else to preach that passage without the previous one. All authority has been given to me in heaven and upon this earth. Go, therefore, and preach the gospel. And you can't delegate responsibility without authority. In about that time in my life, I came across an old publication, I think goes back into the 1930s, by a missionary named McMillan. on the authority of the believer. That was one of the most helpful resources I've ever read at that particular time. He just tore apart Ephesians 1 and 2 and just explained how the church is elevated against above all principalities and powers and dominions and rulers, et cetera. And all of this was such a worldview change for me at that time. But you can't delegate responsibility without authority. Now, we're all to be submissive to governing authorities, and that's on a plane down here. But the authority he's talking about is the authority that the church has, the kingdom of God has over the kingdom of darkness. And Jesus came to undo the works of Satan. I also realized at that time, and what I experienced all over the world, the vast majority of believers are living under what I would call a third of the gospel. that Jesus is the Messiah, came to die for my sins, and if I pray to receive Christ when I die, I'll go to heaven. Well, that sounds okay, but truth of the matter is, that's only a third of the gospel. Thank God for Good Friday. He died for my sins. That sin had separated me from God, but what the early church celebrated was the resurrection. you know, I've seen all these bridge diagrams, and here's this cross covering over here, you know, I'm lost, sin is separating from God. You get the other side, and it's just kind of like it just stops, thud, and the whole symbol of Christianity is the cross. And I said, but really, what they lost was life, and what Jesus came to give us was life, and that life is what determines who we are. Beloved, now you are a child of God. I can't over synthesize and overemphasize this people Your identity in christ and your position in christ are the whole basis by which you are to have a dominion again over the kingdom of darkness in this world The last thing the devil wants you to know Is who you are in christ? Because the battle is almost all over there two most important beliefs. You have is a true knowledge of god true knowledge of who you are as a child of god now as I understand this because is as I was dealing with all kinds of people working in deliverance ministry at that time, seemed like almost all their message was coming out of the Gospels. Now, I love the Gospels, folks. I tell you, one of the greatest discipleship books of all time is the training of the 12. I can't tell you how many times I've gone through that book and extremely, extremely helpful. But you got to be careful because you're still under the old covenant as he's teaching that. And when he gave authority to the 12 and to the 70, it was to the 12 and the 70. It wasn't extrapolated to the general population at that time. And so when you come to the epistles, which is the instructions to the church, you're under the new covenant. And it was just fascinating to me that I found no instruction to cast a demon out of anybody in the epistles. Why was that? Why is that the case? I said, because I don't think it's no longer the outside person's responsibility. It's the individual's responsibility to submit to God and resist the devil. So then I found what I think personally is the most definitive passage on this is 2 Timothy 2.24, where it says, the Lord's bond sermon must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to preach, teach, A patient went wrong with gentleness, correcting his own certain opposition, if perhaps God may grant repentants lean to a knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will." Now, that's not a power model. That's a kind, compassionate, able-to-teach model. And what sets people free is repentance. All of this is kind of coming together to me, and I'll explain how this relates then to discipleship and counseling as well. It was starting to come together in such a way that I started to realize that rather than separate the spiritual from the psychological and the flesh and all that kind of stuff, is to think more holistically in terms of my relationship with God in the context of the heavenlies, of the spiritual realm that exists around us, which is all around us, and it's always here all the time. And it's in that setting. If Jesus said, for instance, you know, he's going to go to the Father and leave behind the 11, he'd already lost Judas. And his biggest concern, and if you want to know the heart of God right now concerning this world that we're living in, it's right here. He said, I ask not that you take them out of this world, but you keep them from the evil one. How do you do that? Sanctify them by their word. Their word is truth. It's truth that sets us free. When you put on the armor of God, you gird your loins with truth. Church is the pillar in support of truth. Everything is truth. And truth is Jesus. It isn't just a book that we read or a passage that we quote. It's Jesus himself who sets me free. Now, look at this. What kind of a person can God use? It just starts out, you must be the Lord's sponsor. You must be dependent upon God. I tell you, I have said one simple prayer for so many years around the world. I'm sure my staff around the world have gotten tired of me praying it. But Lord, I declare my dependency upon you, for apart from Christ, I can do nothing. I can't set a captive free. I can't heal the wounds of the brokenhearted. Only God can do that. So I start by declaring my dependency upon God. I want to personally, my own personal life, be right with God. That counseling, discipleship, interhealing, whatever it is, is not so much a technique that we learn, it's really an encounter with God. Where I'm sitting with another person in the presence of God, and God is going to disclose to that person, doesn't have to be me, When I think there's three people present, the one that's not absolutely necessary is me. Think about that for a moment. How do I know that? Well, I've had people all over the world go through our steps to freedom on their own and find their own freedom between themselves and God. I believe that's possible. But in most cases, and especially hard cases, people need the assistance of somebody else. And then I learned, I said, not quarrelsome. Took me a while to learn the essence of that. Being an aerospace engineer, math was my easiest classes I took. People avoid electrical engineering for that reason. But to me, that was the easiest class. And so I was pretty good at winning arguments. No converts. But I won arguments. It didn't take me long to realize this is not a very effective way to do ministry. And so I learned to avoid the quarrel. It just leads to nowhere. I said, you want to quarrel about something? Go out and start without me. On the other hand, if somebody wants an adequate answer, I'll stay up all night with them, you know, search scriptures with them, be kind to all. Why is that so essential? Well, one act of unkindness, you're working with that individual, one act of unkindness, your ministry's done. It's over. They'll clam up, won't share anything with you. I used to do this around the world. I said, okay, ladies, here's your check. Here's your chance. If you had to choose in this man, strong masculinity or kindness, which one would you choose? And they almost shouted, kindness. Please. One lady did said, well, I kind of like to be a man too. I said, well, he'd like you to be a lady too. So anyway, be kind to all. And I can't overstate how critical that is. Because it's really compassion, it's love. You'll know my disciples for their love. If you don't genuinely love that person, consider that other person more important than yourself. You're probably not ready for this kind of a ministry. Able to teach. That's not able to communicate. Let me point out something. It's kind of interesting. The Word of God is profitable for teaching, reproof, correction, training, and righteousness. We all know that passage. That's not being done in the world today, if you actually think about it. Practically, what is happening, even in our seminaries, the Word of God is profitable for teaching, and training in competence, training in righteousness. But to get to righteousness, there needs reproof and correction. So the word of God is powerful for teaching. Now, the word can be interchanged with doctrine because the biblical gift of teaching is more in a reference to what is true. What I'm doing right now is exhortation. It's the communication of that. And so why is it so important? If you want to help that person, you got to know the truth yourself, because it's truth that sets them free. And you could be able to detect the lie in the air that is their patient. What I'm doing takes great patience, and I have no problem admitting to that, but it takes patience. And sometimes I can sit for a long, long time with people. I remember this guy came to see me. He said, I've helped others, but I need some help. He'd been a pastor and went into counseling as a professional counselor. And so we got to the step on asking who we need to forgive, and 40 names come up. He looked at me and said, you don't have enough time. I said, I'll spend all night if I have to. And I meant that. And he started to cry. He said, you know what? You're the first person that's ever said that to me. This is not a timed exercise. People's lives are too important. Why we came up with that 50-minute session and, you know, time's up, see you next week. If I had a chance to spend four hours with somebody at one session or 50 minutes a week for six months, I'll take that four hours every time. I'll accomplish more too. Because the next week you come back, well, how was your week this week? And then you start rehearsing all this stuff and you never leave. Now, if you're teaching, that's a different thing. You can only, you know, absorb so much information at a time. But if you want to resolve something, Give people that block of time. Show them you really love them. Show them that you care for them. The other issue is along that line, I said, no doctor is going to open up a wound and then walk away after 50 minutes and say, you know, I'll come around and dig around some more exploratory surgery. Hey, I'll be back next week. You know, if a doctor is going to open a wound, he closes it in the same setting. And so if I open this box in somebody's life, I'm going to stay there until we're closed. That's why I'll set up, you know, a morning or even a day if it's a hard case for some people, give them the time they deserve. And I can't overstate how important that is. And then with gentleness, you know, correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant repentance. How does this whole passage begin? It required me to be dependent upon God, but who's the one who grants repentance? God is. Not me. He's the one who grants that. And having then escaped the snare of the devil, having been held captive to do his will. I believe in my heart, and I'm gonna go to the grave with this firm belief, that Jesus said, repent and believe the gospel. That repentance and faith in God is still the answer, whether you're a discipler, whether you're a counselor, whether you're a deliverance ministry or in your healing. Any of that that lacks repentance, lacks completion, Completion is required in my life to just get rid of the barriers that are affecting my intimacy with God. And that's pride, that's sin, that's all kinds of issues that are in my life. And so as I began to turn this around and have them pray and ask God and include God in the process, the wonderful counselor himself, and all this stuff would start to surface. And let me apply this to some of the more, quote, we think of psychological needs. I've often said, if Satan manifested in our presence right now, he'd be about 95% genital. It's just absolutely mind-boggling to me how sex and sexual rape and incest and all that just keep coming up again and again and again and again and again and again. And two passages came together in a powerful way. Romans chapter 6 is the Christians' Emancipation Proclamation. We're identified with Christ as life, as death, as burial and resurrection, Therefore, do not allow sin to reign in your mortal body. How are you gonna do that? Don't use your body as an instrument of unrighteousness. One negative, two positive. But submit yourself to God, use your body as an instrument of unrighteousness and your body to God. Positive, why not over here in the negative part, my body, I belong to God. And so essentially dedicates, present yourself to God and your body as a living sacrifice. And so I said, now think about this for a moment. You got people struggling with sexual sins. And they pray and ask God to reveal to the mind every sexual use of their body as an instrument of unrighteousness. God does. And for each one that comes to mind, normally God just starts with the first person. And then I'll have them pray. This is in our steps to freedom. I renounce having sex with so-and-so and ask you to break that bond. Now, why is that there? Well, 1 Corinthians chapter 7 says, don't you know your body is the temple of God? Therefore, don't use your body as an instrument of unrighteousness. Don't join yourself to a harlot, lest you become one flesh. There's a bonding that takes place there. I can't fully explain that to anybody. I'm not sure I have to, for that matter, because I found it to be true. And so they say, I renounce having a secular soul, and I ask you to break that bond spiritually, mentally, and lovely. and the love that I have for that person. It's like having a nice young girl in your church, gets involved with the wrong guy and they have sex, treats her horribly. Why didn't she leave him? Because they bonded. I had one of my students, ex-students at the seminary, call me and say, if you don't help this girl, we're going to have to commit her. She can't understand why we can't hear the voices that she's hearing. I said, all right, so I drove out there, and I heard her story. She lived with a guy. The guy ran drugs, and they were married. And she finally got out away from him. And I asked her the question. I said, what would you say if I said you had to make a commitment not to leave that guy? Oh, I'd probably get up and leave. She wasn't ready for that yet. And frankly, I wanted the pastor to hear that, and I want you to hear that. It's a long-term goal, but it's not how you get there. So I asked the question, always ask the question when I hear people's story, would you like to resolve this? Nobody's ever said no, by the way. And I said, with your permission, then I'd like to lead you through these steps to freedom. Now, what's going to happen here today? It's not what I do. It's what you do. It's what you believe. And I said, I need one cooperation from you. Share with me what's going on. If you have any thoughts in opposition to what we're talking about, just share them with me. And so they agree, and we go into it. And she prayed that prayer, and out come a whole slew of sexual partners that she had had over the time. And when we were done, voices were gone. And we started to talk a little bit, and I said, and she said, voluntarily, you know, I'm never going to see him again. Now, where'd that come from? Me telling her not to? No, that conviction came from God. And that realization was there. Now, it isn't just a sexual sense. And I mean, we're dealing with people all the time. And the major battle is, and Carl brought this out, is really for the mind. Now, think for a moment, repentance. What is repentance? It's a change of mind. Now, Fernando Garzón, who taught at Regent University, doctorate of psychology, He was a good guy. His dad came from Latin America, came up here, went to med school and married an American woman and stayed. And Fernando, you know, kind of grew up as a Christian and went to Fuller and got his ID. And he would start to realize after a while that in his managed care, he said, I almost lost my faith. I realized that if you took a photo of an average Christian counseling session, and that of a non-Christian, where they're religiously sensitive, would you see any difference? He said, probably not. Well, that wasn't satisfactory for him, and not me either, and probably nobody listening right now. So he stumbled onto our material and invited me back to Regent University. Actually, another man did. He invited me to teach a doctorate of ministry class. And so they only had about four sign up for it, which is kind of not that odd. There's not a big quality of people involved in those programs. So they allowed PsyD students, doctoral psychology students, and MDiv students. And it was a one-week intensive, inter-term type thing. And he asked me if I'd be willing to do a pre-test or post-test on all these students. I said, sure, which surprised him, by the way. And I said, sure, let's do it. I said, if what I'm doing doesn't work, I'd like to know. And so anyway, they went through all the contents that's in Victor with darkness and the bondage breaker, et cetera. But to assure a little cooperation, I waived a 10-page paper if they would all participate in this study. Now, which guaranteed almost 100%, and it did. And so they took these psychologically norm scales, was on anger, depression, and all kinds of psychological problems. They went through the material, the truth, the class, and went through the steps to freedom. And then they took a post-test at the end of it, end of the day. And then three weeks later, they have to go through a book we have, Walking in Freedom. It's a post-step supportment book, that 21-day type of devotional that reinforces what they did. And so they did the test all over again three weeks later to see what fruit we gained was preserved. And truth of the matter is, everybody had changed. Every scale was statistically significant. Well, he wrote it up and submitted it to the Journal of Psychology and Theology and they published it several years ago now. But they called Fernando and they said, what is Neil doing? How does he explain this? And when I cooperated with him, I told him, I said, if we're gonna do this test, it needs to be understood that you're not testing the average population here. You're dealing with graduate students in a Christian school, and they're not coming to take a class to have their life changed. They're coming to fulfill a degree requirement. He said, agreed. But their lives were changed. Every scale, statistically significant. It was a powerful week, to be honest with you. And so they asked Fernando, what is Neil doing? How does he account for this? What's he doing beyond cognitive behavioral therapy? Let me explain this for just a moment. What is cognitive behavioral therapy? It's rooted in the concept that people are feeling what they're feeling, doing what they're doing because of what they chose to believe or think. Therefore, if you want to change how people feel or how they behave, what should you really change? How they think or what they believe. I agree with that. So he said, how would you answer the question? The question was simply this. I went back. I told him the truth. They believed the truth. Truth set him free. End of story. Not quite. Actually, Albert Ellis is the one who formulated cognitive behavioral therapies in atheists. I said, to do cognitive behavioral therapy, which is the most entrenched methodology right now in the secular and Christian world, I said, to do that with Even the words of christ without the life of christ You not see the results that we got Let me explain that for a moment I mean christianity is not a new philosophy. You don't go to church and and learn the truth You go to church to get connected with god and the and the word of God should lead you to that point. That's a problem in our churches, just not in counseling. You need the presence of God. You need to be connected with him. You need to be united with him. Salvation for the early church was union with God. And I said, secondly, to do cognitive behavioral therapy and ignore the reality of the spiritual world, I promise you, you will not see these kind of results. And there's where most Christian counselors are stuck. They're not taking into account the reality of the spiritual world, that somebody could be paying attention to a deceiving spirit. Paul says, and listen to the wording of this, 1 Timothy chapter 4, verse 1, the Holy Spirit, God himself, explicitly says, Paul doesn't use that language anywhere else, that in the latter days, people will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceiving spirits and teachings of demons. That's happening right now all over the world. people all over the world paying attention to deceiving spirits, believing lies. What are we doing about that? For that matter, I said, so if you don't take that into account, I said, think about it this way. You come into this world, you have no relationship with God, you learn to live your life independent of God. That's the flash, basically. And then one day you come to Christ, you You're born again. You're a brand new creation in Christ. All things pass away. All things become new. And you kind of go, well, how come myself feel the same way and still struggle with the same old issues? Well, there's a good explanation of that. You learned at that time to live independently of God. But when you came to Christ, nobody pushed the clear button up here. That's why Romans 12, 2 says, no longer be conformed to this world, because we all were at one time. Differently, by the way. But be transformed by the renewal of our mind that may prove the will of God is good, acceptable, and perfect. So if you want to grow now, you've got to reprogram your computer, but you better check for viruses. And if you don't understand computer viruses, they're not accidental. Disgruntled employees and hackers are intentionally introducing, you know, viruses like that into your computer system in the same way here. And so we got two things going on. One, we struggled with those old flesh patterns that I grew up with. And number two, I got this battle that's going on for my mind. And I said, oh man, you just made life a lot harder for me. No, I'm trying to make it easier in the long run because it's understandable. That's why we're not to put our hands on a new convert, because truth of the matter is, he's going to fall back on the tried and true, which is going to be his flesh patterns. It takes time to renew your mind. It takes me the rest of my life, and I'll never fully arrive there. But that's my journey as I go. But I also have to realize that because I'm down in this world system down here, that I better put on the armor of God, which what you're really putting on is the Lord Jesus Christ himself. And so it really comes down to, that necessity to take every thought captive to obedience to Christ. Now, Carl pointed out 2 Corinthians chapter 10, where the weapons of our warfare are divinely powerful. We're not talking about defensive armor for the destruction of strongholds. Those metal strongholds have been raised up against the knowledge of God. People have distorted concepts of God, and that has to be renewed. You have to change the truth. Let me give one illustration. I look at depression for instance Psalm 13, I think it is David said how long oh Lord without forget me forever How long will I take counsel my say all day all day long how long my enemies be exalted over me poor guys depressed Well, why is he depressed? Got a false concept of God. God couldn't forget him for a moment much less forever for that matter and I Psalm 42, 43, why are you in despair, my soul? Hope in God, for I shall again praise him. Now in Psalm 13, he comes back, wait a minute, I've tasted the kindness of the Lord. I shall again praise him. And so he does something proactive to get out of that. Or Lamentations chapter three, God is out to get him. He feels entrapped. He said, therefore, I've lost hope. But this I recall to my mind. Therefore, I hope, greater is his mercy, greater is God. And so it's getting back into a true knowledge of God and a true knowledge of who you are as a child of God. And so when I realized that this whole battle, essentially, is a struggle and a battle for the mind, that people are paying attention to deceive his peers and hearing voices. So am I the only one that's recognized this? Absolutely not, folks. Every disciple or every counselor out there is dealing with people who are hearing voices and struggling with their thoughts. It's the explanation that changes. What you hear from the world is that this is a chemical imbalance. Now, be nice about it, but ask some serious questions. Would you explain to me how a chemical could produce a personality and a thought, or how my neurotransmitters could randomly fire and create a thought that I'm opposed to thinking, and you have a natural explanation of that? Well, I'm open. What is it? There isn't one. What you'll hear is that, well, I gave my anti-psychotic medications and the voice stopped. Well, sure. So did everything else, man. You just narcotized it is all you did. And folks, if you don't realize this, that is one of the major reasons why people drink and take drugs. They have no mental peace. And with no mental peace, I mean, you got to find some way to find relief from that. And so they're going to go to drugs or whatever else and try to narcotize and get rid of it. And I said, There is a piece of God that passes all understanding, God in your heart and your mind in Christ Jesus. And one of the things that I found out when I was really looking at 2 Corinthians chapter 10, when it talks about those things, the thoughts may have raised up a knowledge of God and I have to be transformed now by the renewing of my mind and come to a true knowledge of God and who I am. Then in the present tense, it says, take every thought captive. That Greek word noema is used not very much in scripture. But mostly, right there in 2 Corinthians, it starts in chapter 2, I urge you to forgive, for we are not ignorant of Satan's schemes. Thoughts, same word. Take every thought captive. Schemes, babble from your mind kind of a thing. And I have just discovered over the years, I said, what affords Satan the greatest access to the church? Personally, I believe it's unforgiveness. And let me tell you how serious this is. I was talking to 600 pastors one time, and I said, how many gave a message Sunday morning on what it means to forgive from your heart and how to do it? Not one pastor raised their hand. I just, no wonder we're in this mess, people. And when I've done conferences around the world, and we get to forgiveness, and I explain that to them, and I ask for some commitment. I never embarrass people. But I said, and I told him, I'm not trying to embarrass you, but I think you need to respond to God right now. We have actually prayed and asked God to show us who we need to forgive. And you know, right now, there's one more you need to forgive. I'm asking you to do something courageous. I want you to stand. You're not saying anything to me. You're just saying to God, God, I heard you. I know who I need to forgive and I'm willing to do it. And I'm also standing to say, I need the grace of God to do this. How many people do you think would stand up in a church? Almost every person stood up. Most of them would have probably a list of 10 to 20 people that need to forgive. Now, what if I never came to that church? What if those people never forgave those 10 or 20 people? Should they take communion next Sunday? They really shouldn't. Will they? Yeah. So what is that? It's kind of meaningless, isn't it? Maybe even dangerous. We're supposed to examine ourselves before we take communion. The early church did. I mean, that's why they had confession. You went to confession on Saturday. Things were right before you took communion, Sunday morning or mass or what they call it. In fact, you would even be serious enough about it that you would fast from midnight until you actually participated in the Eucharist. And then afterwards you went to breakfast. That's where we get our term break fast. And, uh, Let me tell you, in my own experience, I sat on this for five years at Temple School of Theology. I didn't want to go public with what I was learning. I didn't feel released to it all. And having a research doctrine and an engineering background, I didn't build a product until I had tested and pounded it and worked it out and whatever else. I'm going to foist on the public something I hadn't experienced myself and actually worked through and learned how to do this. And before God released me, by the way, oh my gosh, he took me through two years of the most incredible experience in my life of hardcore underground Satanism. I've never written much about this or even talk much about it, but boy, I was exposed to hardcore underground Satanism. And let me put it this way. If you hear about it or you see it, it's not the real thing. And that's just embedded in our culture. And thank God I had that experience because as I started to go out across the country, all across the country, I started to deal with people who had been ritually abused. And I would have had no clue what in the world that was or anything else or how to even help people dealing with dissociative identity disorder and satanic ritual abuse, which is just sickeningly bizarre and evil as you can possibly imagine it was. uh, you know, having that experience, then I felt kind of released to go. But, you know, for the first four years that I went on and did our conference, which is now available in many languages around the world. Um, every night before the conference, every night I'd be sharply waking to three o'clock in the morning, every blooming night, you know, I'd feel this attack come on me. And, uh, At first, I kind of struggled with it. And it took a while to actually really learn how to just successfully resolve that kind of an issue. And it's right out of Job chapter 4, if you want to look it up in your scripture. Same kind of an experience. And so I've asked people in conferences, how many have had the experience of awakening sharply at a precise time of the night, like 3 o'clock? And a third of the people's hands will go up. By the way, for what it's worth, when Chuck Swindoll was at Evangelical Free Church in Fullerton, had me do this for all of his leadership, was about 250 people, two weekends. I asked them that question, 95% of the hands went up. High profile church, under attack. And then I'd ask the next question. I said, how many have had this experience? You have a terrible sense of fear and dread come over you. You could have felt like a pressure on your chest or something grabbing your throat. Try to speak. Couldn't do it. And again, a third of the people's hands will go up. Now, can you imagine explaining that to a doctor or a counselor? Most don't, by the way. I asked one time, I said, how many have actually sought help for that? I talked to somebody about it. Almost nobody did. And so they kind of struggle alone. And I said, well, what do I do? You feel powerless. Remember, the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh. This is not a physical battle. And it's a spiritual battle. But they're divinely powerful. Now, the order of scripture here is just critical. Submit to God. Resist the devil. Do that first. Don't try to resist the devil without first submitting to God. Get things right here first. So God knows the thoughts and intentions of your heart. So inwardly, you can just say to God, God, just turn to God. Just turn to God. God, I need you. God, I depend upon you however you want to pray. and you'll be released, and all you'd have to say is Jesus, and it'd stop like that. That went on for four years. And then it just stopped. And I really haven't had it since. To me, I think it was kind of like a test. You can sit here and squirm, or try to get it out of yourself, or you can call upon the Lord. The Bible says, call upon the Lord. And I said, but I couldn't do it. It's the kind of thing, you could, you just didn't know you could. And I said, but if you learn that. It's the same thing with authority. I remember the first time I had somebody go catatonic on me. I mean, we're talking to this person, all of a sudden, put my hands in front of the rays, nothing happened. I said, light's wrong, but nobody was home. And fortunately, I didn't panic or anything. Actually, I had a new little computer. And so I turned around, took some messages off, and I heard some stirring behind me. So I turned around and said, you OK? Yeah. So we just went on. And over the years, I've learned something interesting about that. I said, if they go catatonic, I can kind of look at the person and say, you have no authority here. You can open your eyes now, and they'll open their eyes, and we'll just go on. And so the way I maintain control in this thing is to ask their participation. And I said, I need your help with this. I said, share with me what's going on. As soon as you bring it out in the light, I said, so these people hearing voices, I mean, now think about this for a moment. You know, there's all kinds of people hearing voices. I mean, we just had a guy that was shot by seven officers in our community. You know, it was just a really a tragic scene all the way around and blood is going to be shed. Unfortunately, it was really sad kind of a thing. But the guy actually had what looked like a mental illness kind of a problem. I see he was mentally ill. This guy was so blue and deceived. It was incredible. And unfortunately, he ended up getting shot, and he's dead, because we don't know those kind of things. But when people say they're hearing a voice, and you don't hear it, see, you imagine going into a concert, and you're sitting there hearing voices, and they don't hear it. They're going to go, la, la, la, la, la, la, kind of a thing. And so you try to explain that to them. But I said, how do you hear physically? You have to have a sound source. That's a complexion. repression and composition of a physical phenomena. You're moving air molecules through the air. It travels at the speed of sound. I'm looking for the right word here. And so you can't speak in outer space, for instance. You need the medium of air. And so through the medium of air, it hits your eardrum. It's a transducer. It just sends a signal to your brain. How do you see You don't see anything unless there's a light source reflected off of a material object and goes to the optic nerve and sends a signal to your brain. You turn off all the lights, you wouldn't see me right now. You turn them back on, I'm not here, you wouldn't see me. It requires a material object. So when people see things and hear things that you don't see or hear, how do you explain that? I said, we wrestle not with flesh and blood. What they're seeing isn't out there. It's here in their mind. And what they're hearing isn't out there. Or somebody else would hear it and see it. So nobody else hears or sees it. It's all here. It's all interior. And so when they explain that to me, whatever, I said, the goal when I'm done is for that to stop. I remember this one lady I was working with. And all of a sudden, she goes, oh, get there. What's going on in your mind right now? You mean you don't see him there? My father's standing right there. Don't bother to look for us, because you won't see a thing. I said, tell me about your father. Well, it was his father that got them into the occult and whatever else. And that's why he showed up. And so grandma showed up. Now, folks, that is not her father and grandma. This is all deception. But for her, it was extremely real. And I've had other people, look at that, and there's things, there's something whirling in front of them, and I'll put my hand in front of them. It's not fair. This is all a battle for your mind. And it's like dreams as well, which is really fascinating to me. I said, when you go to bed at night, your brain's organic. It's going to continue to function. If it doesn't, you're dead. And so it's kind of like you're going to sleep at night, but nobody's on the keyboard. You know, if you're typing away, you're not asleep. So somewhere when you go to sleep, you got to take your hands off. You got to let go. And your mind will randomly access anything at night. And so the dreams that normal people have, which are just dreams, it's almost people you've known or seen or heard or experienced in your past. It's based on stored information. And now the storyline can be rather creative. Don't buy it, by the way. Jeremiah 23 says your dreams are like straw. Don't try to make great extrapolations out of those kind of dreams. But when TV people tell me that they're having these horrible nightmares and whatever else about images and things they've never seen before, come from a different source. It's not stored information. And almost across the board, when they were leading through the steps, that stuff disappears. And then what I think Carl brought out, which is equally true, is that if you watched a horror movie that night and had a dream that night, that's something you put there yourself, you stored it in, and you probably could be having a nightmare based on that. So it's, again, it's flesh and spirit. It's a combination of two working at both times. Now, what I've personally done, and I think I've just maybe gone beyond my time, is to try to show how all this relates from a Christian worldview with fear. I have a book on fear because I tell you what, folks, fear is kind of the granddaddy of it all. And you can't believe how many people are struggling with fear. There's an end note appendix that we have for fear and our steps to freedom. One of our ministry associates says, I take them through that first and get rid of the fear. It makes the steps easier. It's just a thought. But fear is the number one mental health problem of the world. And anxiety disorders are. And then depression. Think about this. Look at anxiety. You know what that word means? It's a divided mind. And so if you're paying attention to the deceiving spirit, you have a divided mind. If you were the enemy and you wanted to wreak havoc in this world, what would you do? I know what I do because I know what he's doing. He's trying to divide your mind because the double-minded man is unstable in all of his ways. Then I try to divide your family because the house divided against itself can't stand. And then I try to divide the body of Christ because divided we fall, but united we stand. But hopefully everybody listening right now is single-minded. The marriage is one in Christ and the church is one big happy family. We're all of each other. We're like blindfolded warriors. We don't know who our enemy is, so we strike out at ourselves and each other. And so what we did in the book on fear and the one on anger was we included the steps chapter by chapter as you go through it. So it isn't enough to me that I somehow could get rid of a demon, which would be very relieving in a lot of ways. But if you don't understand the dynamics behind anger and anxiety and fear and depression, you're just prone again to fall back into the same kind of a pit. And so anyway, I better stop. I think I've gone over my time. Oh, Dr. Anderson, thank you. Thank you so much. It was so tempting of me to just let you keep going, but just so thankful for what you shared. And you held up a couple of resources, and we're going to be sure to cover those resources, make them available to all those who are interested. And really, it's been such a joy reading through the chat. I mean, we've got a great conversation going on about neurology and brain science, and that's my cup of tea. As some of you who are familiar with DeeperWalk know, our colleagues with Dr. Jim Wilder and other fellow neurotheologians, we cover that and other resources in our learning library, including those books that Dr. Anderson was just talking about. So thank you for those of you who have joined that conversation. especially as we talk about all of the elements holistic, just as Dr. Anderson mentioned at the very beginning. We're going to take some time now to answer a few of your questions that have been sent specifically and directly for Dr. Anderson. And really, I've just been learning so much from all of you. It's been a joy. One of the ones that I wanted to make sure that we cover, you mentioned a lot about this when it comes to the bonds of spiritual oppression caused by sexual acts. We had someone who sent in a question about, you know, what do you do when the situation is, this was not, these were not sexual choices that were made by you, but were forced upon you, Dr. Anderson. How does healing start in situations where those infractions have occurred and have lingered into the adult years and even longer? Well, tragically, when you're dealing with sexual abuse like that, I said, This is even true in case of rape and incense. You say, my God, that's not fair. Well, of course it's not. It's an absolute violation. Somebody has used your body as an instrument of unrighteousness. I always explain it. It's just like Antiochus Epiphanes going into the temple 200 years before Christ, the slaughter and a pig on the altar. When the Maccabees tried to stop it, they were martyred themselves. Now, like it or not, the temple is defiled. The good news is I cannot defile that. I don't have to remain a victim the rest of my life. Victim no more, I tell people. I have renounced that use of my body with that person and asked God to break that bond and give my body to God as a living sacrifice. And so as people go through the steps, those things will come up as well. And so there is an answer for that. And until I realized, the critical nature of what Paul is really referring to in Romans chapter 6. It's my responsibility not to allow sin to reign there. But when somebody violates that, unfortunately, I am still corrupted. But the good news is, I got an answer back to God, and I don't have to live that way anymore. I can renounce that use of my body, whether it was done to me or by me. Either case, I found out to be true. and I can give my body to God as a living sacrifice. Why do you think we're urged to do that, by the way? And why the order? I urge you by the mercies of God to present your bodies, it's your physical body, as a living sacrifice, a reasonable service of worship. You do that first, then you can be transferred by the renewing of your mind. Trying to win this battle for my mind without first submitting to God, my body is the instrument of righteousness. In other words, break the bond first, And then you can win this battle for your mind. But if all you're doing is just constantly inundated with sexual thoughts and images and temptations, and you just can't ruminate, can't get seemingly out of it, something there is unresolved. And that's what we try to do. And we have to invite God in to show us what those root issues are. And what we're really doing as a ministry is helping people get firmly rooted in Christ. I'm saying once, That is done, that is not an end, it's a beginning. But until that's done, you're just stuck. You're just ruminating these things in your mind, you can't get them out of it, et cetera, until things are really right between me and God. And so the whole order of scripture, submit to God, resist the devil. And so what we try to do as best as we can is help people clean house. I love the revival under Hezekiah, The whole temple had absolutely gone to ruin. And so he started out by consecrating the priest. In other words, dedicated themselves to the priest. Then he went out and cleaned out the temple. Isn't that a powerful picture of repentance? Clean out the temple. And then when the temple was cleaned out, he ordered the sin offering. Now the sin offering, the only thing that was shed was the blood. And Christ is our blood offering, is our sin offering. Nothing actually had changed at that time. Then he ordered the burnt offering. The burnt offering was different. All was consumed on the altar. Body, blood, blair, hearth. See, Christ is my sin offering. He shed his blood, but the carcass, the body was taken outside of the compound at that time, which it was in those days. Burnt offering, it was all consumed. And when it was all consumed, he said, then the music began in the temple. It's not enough your sins are forgiven, you got to be filled with the Spirit. That offering is the same thing as submit your body to God as a living sacrifice. You're filled with the Holy Spirit, what happens? Music begins. You sing a melody in your heart to the Lord. So It's all type for us in the Old Testament. Then when you see it, how it's all fleshed out in the New Testament under the New Covenant, what it really means to be a child of God, seated with Him in the heavenlies and the authority to do God's will. then life becomes a whole different dimension. Yes, yes. And that's one of the reasons why I was so excited about your topic and how you mentioned the importance of holistic for any who are confused about whether or not Dr. Anderson would recommend you talking with your health care provider and your team. Healing is meant to be done in community. We see that all through the scriptures. And part of having a healing journey team is having those physiological the needs taken care of, whether it's nutritional or just mental, it has to do with brain chemistry. Take it all into consideration as you let God help you build out your strategy for recovery. So I'm thankful for your holistic approach, Dr. Anderson. I just want to make sure that no one is thinking that you're not in favor of that comprehensive holistic approach. So thank you for that. Our next question, I think ties right into it because we're all about practical tools here. And we had a question of how do you practically take your thoughts captive? How do you take every thought captive in Christ on a practical level? How would you answer that, Dr. Anderson? Like somebody asked me, he said, should I rebuke every negative thought? I said, are you kidding me? You'd be doing that the rest of your life. I always illustrate that you'd be like somebody out in a pond with a bunch of corks around you and you're treading water and you're trying to keep the corks submerged. And I said, you know, that's not true. That's not true. I said, I said, well, what should I do? I said, ignore the stupid corks and swim to shore. I mean, we're not called to dispel the darkness. We're called to turn on the light. It's as simple as that. It doesn't say stop thinking these thoughts. It says start thinking the truth. Let me amplify upon that because this double-mindedness in the Philippians chapter 4, verse 6, it says, be anxious for nothing. Don't be double-minded about anything, is what he's saying is. But prepare in supplication, let your requests be made known unto God. And the peace of God that passes all this time will guard your heart and your mind in Christ Jesus. Well, thank you. I'll do that. God did his part. Oh, you got a part. Do that first. But the next verse says, finally, whatever is true, right, lovely, pure, think on those things. That's my responsibility. That's how you take a thought. Think upon what is true. Reject the lie, choose the truth. Is that enough? No. Next verse. The things you heard from me, put into practice. Do the right thing. Do the pure thing. You can't overstate the order that is here. Get out of your double-mindedness, go to God, then choose the truth, and then live the truth. If you just think about it and don't live it, it won't be effective. So live that way. Walk in the light. Live in the truth. Yes, and I can personally attest to that. When I first became a believer as an adult, assimilated into the church after a childhood full of trauma and drama, abuse and chaos. One of the first things that I learned was how to, who I am in Christ. And you mentioned that Dr. Anderson, I mean, that's so practical. And as a, as a young adult, I would write on my hands and my arms with Sharpies, who I am in Christ. And that's how I took those thoughts captive. It's like, no, I'm not a loser. I am redeemed and a child of God. that we do, especially if we focus on who we are in Christ, can really bring some breakthrough. So just thank you. Thank you for that one. I do think we have time here. This is an important one that we can cover before our next segment. I am somebody who was raised by a borderline parent and someone has just asked a question directly Dr. Anderson, what do you do with a borderline family member or someone who's diagnosed with severe personality disorder? What do you suggest is a good first step on that? Even professional counselors, when they discover somebody that has a borderline personality, they want to bail as fast as they can. I think I know one aspect of this, and I'm pretty confident about it. In fact, I was explaining this to group pastors over in England about borderline. I said, there's one thing they all have in common. They're looking for somebody to fix them, and they will never find them. They will go to you, and you're the only one that can help, and you'll do the best you can, and then they'll turn around, bad mouth, you can go to somebody else. It's really a tragic thing to watch. And I said, you know, that's why I said, our whole ministry is not based on my giftedness or my talent or my experience. It's all based on Christ. And it has to be. I said, you're looking for the wrong person for answer. The only one who's got an answer is Christ. As I was sharing that, this gal comes up to me and says, I was borderline. And I looked at her. I said, yeah, I can tell. She had cuts all over her arms. Yes, yes. What you said was absolutely true. I went to everybody I could go to. I was so desperate, I went into a shopping mall and stuck a knife in my stomach. And they called the meds and whatever else. And somebody told me about Freedom in Christ. And so one of our ministries people over there in England brought her into her home. told her who she was in Christ, what it really meant to be a child of God, and that she could make these decisions. And it was her choice. And what was going to set her free is not what others did or what others believe. It's what she did and what she believed. And now she's standing before me, no longer borderline. And so if you're looking for somebody to fix you, you may never find that person. And if the person comes to you and said, you're the only way you can help me, stop and make a little explanation and simply sit down and do some of Carl's pre stuff, you know, that he talked about. He said, let's, let's, let's lay the playing field here. God is God and we're his children. We have the authority in Christ to do God's will, and we can do all things through Christ who strengthens us. And so let's talk. All right. Yes, that's so true. I think about how my mom, when she passed in 2015, one of my siblings called me and she said, do you think mom is finally happy? And I said, oh yeah, she's dancing with Jesus right now. And yeah, that's the thing. You spend your whole journey looking for someone to save you. And for those of us who are in relationships with someone who's borderline, it's good to remember on a regular basis, I'm nobody's savior, you're nobody's savior, there's only one and that's Jesus. And that gives some relief in the journey for sure. So thank you for covering that question so well. You're one of two people that I've ever met who has covered that question well. So thank you. I think that direct questions for Dr. Anderson, I've reached the end of them. If you said directly to Dr. Anderson, I tried to find those and hopefully I didn't miss you, but it has been such a joy. I mean, just thank you, Dr. Anderson. And thank you to all of you who've submitted your questions. It's been just great learning and growing through All of you. And we covered a lot of ground today, but guess what? We're not quite finished yet. Nick is going to be back in just a second. Nick, are you with me? To tell us what's coming up in our final session. You bet. Well, I do want to point to some resources from Dr. Anderson that you can find. Let me just share my screen here. So at the top, you see the website for the ministry founded by Dr. Neal T. Anderson, and that's freedom in Christ ministry. So FICM.org. It's a treasure trove of resources for you to grow in freedom in Christ. So I encourage you to check that out. And the steps to freedom in Christ are something you've heard referenced throughout this weekend. Just an incredibly simple yet powerful and thorough tool to take yourself or others through closing doors and enemy access and working through the steps that are gonna bring freedom into your life. It's so neat that Dr. Anderson and our president's father, Timothy Warner, wrote a book together called The Essential Guide to Spiritual Warfare. And so what a neat legacy that we have there, a long-term partnership between Timothy Warner and Neil Anderson. And both of these resources are available at our bookstore. So I encourage you to head on over there and check them out if that's something that would be helpful for you. And our final session, in some people's mind, and maybe the best for last, because this is where we get all of the presenters together from this weekend, including Judy Buick Dunnegan, who is going to give us a bonus teaching that we'll send out to you next week on warfare praying. And so they're all gonna be together and Juni's gonna be able to try to get to as many of the questions that have come in this weekend that we haven't had time to get to in the individual session. So if you can stick around for this live Q&A, we will be taking more questions, get to as many as we can. And we'll just have a rich time of interacting with these great presenters that have been with us this weekend. Yes, thank you. We'll see you all after the break. Have a good break. I know I need one. Take it easy. All right, see you soon.