The following program is recorded content created by The Truth Network. It's Matt Slick Live! Matt is the founder and president of the Christian Apologetics Research Ministry, found online at karm.org. When you have questions about Bible doctrines, turn to Matt Slick Live for answers. Taking your calls and responding to your questions at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick. Hey everybody, welcome to the show. It's me, Matchlick. Welcome to Matchlick Live. I hope you're all having a good day. Okay, a little FYI. Let's see. In three hours, I'll be on Clubhouse just doing a Wednesday night Q&A thing. So I'll be doing that. If you want to join me, you can just go to Clubhouse on your phone or Club Deck. You can download it for the PC and you can type my name in. I think you'll find it or whatever comes up. Do a search for Christian. You can get in there and I usually do two hours of just asking answering questions Sometimes we have little mini impromptu debates with people because they want to challenge and we have some people Let's just say who don't have all their paws in a litter box and they come in and I'll let them stay on there because I want to use them as examples of what not to do and things like that. So we sometimes discuss the Trinity, oneness, Islam, Catholicism. I'm thinking about putting up a room here pretty soon. Is Roman Catholicism true? I was listening to some Catholic radio and oh my goodness. It is so sad. It is. Come home to the church. Not come home to Jesus. Come home to the church. Yeah, the church. Anyway, so that's just some of it. That's barely even scratching the surface. A lot of bad stuff there. Yeah, I believe the Roman Catholic Church is not Christian. And if you want to talk about that, you can. And you can give me a call. We can interact on that one if you like it, what I said, or don't. You know, that's OK. All right, three open lines, 877-207-2276. Also, if you want to email me, if you're not comfortable with being on the air, you want to email, all you got to do is just email us at info at CARM.org. Info at CARM.org. Really easy. See? Simple. Easy stuff. Easy peasy. So there you go. I think that is about it. So why don't we then just jump onto the calls. Let's see. Let's get to Anonymous from North Carolina. Welcome. You're on the air. Hi, Matt. Thanks for taking my call. Sure. Sure. I heard you talk. I hear you talk a lot about pastors and elders being male. in the Bible, which I agree with, and I want to specifically talk about deacons, whether you feel like biblically deacons should only be male. We are finding a lot of churches that seem to be sound, doctrinally and biblically, but they are allowing female deacons. All right, so what I'll do is answer it by going to scripture. All right. So what I'm going to do is read a little bit and women should not be deacons. OK, that's the short story. But let me do this. It says this is what it says in Titus one, five. For this reason, I left you in Crete that you would set in order and what and what remains or appoint elders in every city. If a man is above reproach, husband of one wife. Now, it says there, husband of one wife, okay? And that is, it is Anirmius Gunaikos. So, the elder must be a husband of one wife. In 1 Timothy 3, verse 2, an overseer in Greek is episkopos. Now, the word elder is presbuteros. So we have presbuteros, an elder, and an overseer is episkopos. An overseer, then, must be above reproach the husband of one wife. Right there, it says a husband of one wife. And it's there, it's Andra, from Maner, Andra mias gunaikas, a man or husband of one woman, is what it's saying. So this is what it says about the elder and the bishop. Now, let's go to deacons. And this is in 1 Timothy 3.8. Let's see, let's see. Deacons must be men of dignity. And that is plural masculine form. There must be men of dignity, not double tongued or addicted, etc. These men must first be Test it. And the word, it doesn't say, here's the thing, it doesn't say men, anthropos or oneir. I've explained something in the Greek. You can have words that are masculine, feminine, and neuter. So for example, agathos is simply the word good, but it's masculine singular. Agathoi is masculine plural. Agathai is feminine plural. And so they do this in Greek, where the nouns have specific gender assigned to them. And this is what's going on. It says that deacons must be men, and then the word here, like for example in 1 Timothy 3.10, these men, But it's actually saying, these ones, is like what it's really saying, except it's in the masculine form. So, these masculine ones. That's why they say husbands, because then it comes into the word in verse 12, deacons must be husbands of only one wife, and then we have andres mias gunaikos again. So, the condition is a husband of one wife, or a man of one woman, basically, for deacons, bishops, and elders. That's what the Bible says, okay? Yes, I agree with you, and specifically with verse 12, I don't see how women, how they can, you know, with it being husband of one wife, but We're finding that a lot of pastors are talking about verse 11, where, you know, it says their wives likewise, and they say that can be interpreted as women, wives can be women as well. Yeah, guna or gune. Okay, and it's a woman, wife. It's spoken of young woman, maiden, an adult woman, etc. So, women, the literal, I think the literal is either deaconess, wives, or deaconesses. And we could talk about that, okay? Because you can, we'll talk about deaconesses in a second. They're not office holders, they're servants, because a deacon is a servant. Diakonos, to serve. Apostolo means to send. Apostolo, apostle, is a sent one. So that's what's going on. Anyway, so women or the wives must be dignified, not malicious, gossips, temperate, faithful, and all things. Deacons must be husbands and one wife. And so now they might say, well, what if the person is not married? What about that? Well, the cultural context was that men and women married very early because their lifespans if you lived past 40 you were doing pretty well And so they got married early their betrothed early and it was just understood in Jewish culture that base and even the Greek culture You had wives early, you know, you got married early. It's just how it was not everybody, but that's just a norm So it's normatively speaking. You'd be a man of one woman and You're married to one woman. It's not more. And so if someone says, well, you see, what if someone's not married? So then he can't be a pastor, can he? Because he has a husband and one wife. And so what they're trying to do is say, well, you can't take it literally then, can we? And you could also say, well, they must have children, plural, who believe. Well, that means if you only have one child, you can't be a pastor. So what they sometimes want to do is get very literal when it serves them. But I ask them, and I say, look, what's going on here is normatively speaking. Is it possible for a woman to be a husband of one wife? No. OK, issue settled. It can't be to elders or not to be women. Pastors are not to be women. Deacons are not to be women according to what Paul says. Okay. Yeah, I agree. Do you think, in your opinion, would you would you attend a church that has like deaconesses? Now, it depends. Say I went to a church and they had a deaconess. I'm going to go to the pastor, who better be a male, and I'm going to say, I'm just curious, what's the office here that she's holding as a deaconess? Well, we just use the title, and she just serves meals. Is she in authority? No, she's not. I'd let it slide, but I'd have a discussion with the pastor and say, it's not a good choice of words. So normally speaking, the deacons are the ones who help the people, who help others in the church. And that's a job for the men. Now, some people say women are better at it than men. Maybe they are. But the men are supposed to be the ones who are in spiritual authority in the church. And the women can work under those men and do some great stuff. That's not a problem. And they're underappreciated in the church as far as I'm concerned. OK? Okay. Um, you were talking about Catholicism and if you have a moment, I'd like to ask you another question. Sure. Okay. I have a really good friend who is Catholic and she told me that she just, um, her and her husband just did a convalidation ceremony. Yeah. It's husband with marriage. Yeah. And I, I wasn't familiar with that and I was just wondering, like, I just want to help her and guide her and wanted to know your thoughts about that. Yeah, convalidation deals with when a man or woman are married maybe she or he wasn't a Catholic and are married outside the church or they were Catholics not really walking well with the Catholic Church and then they got married outside the church. A convalidation is a validation of that marriage is a ceremony they usually have to go through. That's what that is. So that means she's getting more dedicated to the Catholic Church, not to Jesus, but to the Catholic Church and the Pope. So let me give you a little bit of advice here on how to witness to her. So, for example, I was in Oculus last night in something called Big Screen, you know, the virtual world, and I was in a room having a discussion with a guy who's a Roman Catholic. And I asked him, are all of your sins forgiven right now? And he said, no, they will be come Sunday when he goes to church and gets the Eucharist. and so it became very difficult to have a conversation with him because uh... satan often brings people into conversations in his rooms to interrupt and this is what happened last night it's very difficult to to have a dialogue with this guy but the issue is you can ask her are all of your sins forgiven and what she can only say as a roman catholic is she hopes so or if she does enough works or if she does enough sacraments and what you can talk to her about is your sins are forgiven now and you're justified now and that you just go to Jesus you don't need to go anybody you don't have to say don't go to a priest because that'll put up a barrier say I just go to Jesus and Jesus forgives me because he's God and I pray to him and how could she disagree with that so what happens with Catholicism is The church replaces Jesus. Now they're going to say it doesn't, but it does. We believe that Christ is the supreme one to whom we pray and the authority from whom we get through the scriptures. They will say that Jesus gave the authority to their church and their church has the right to distribute the sacraments through which grace is then infused into the soul. And the more infused grace you have in the soul, the more saved you are. So the church is in control of the person's salvation. The church, not Jesus. So it replaces Christ with its own false doctrines, false church. It's a false church, it's not a true Christian church. I really appreciate it. It makes complete sense to me, and I am trying to witness to her. And our first thought was, why would you need to have the marriage... Oops, can you hold on? I'm sorry. Convalidation, yes. We've got a break, so hold on, okay? And hey folks, we have one open line, 877-207-2276. Be right back. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick. Hey, everybody. Welcome back to the show. Let's get back on with Anonymous. You still there? Yes. Thank you. I do want to leave some other callers, but I think when my friends told me about the convalidation, my first thought was, why would you need that? You're married. You're legally married. I just felt so confused and I'm going to use your advice and talk with her. Right. And because, you're welcome. Just remember this, the Roman Catholic Church is the church and the means of salvation and everything has to be according to it. So the church has to recognize your marriage, recognize the baptism, recognize everything. And then it'll make sense why convalidation is part of their stuff. Okay. Yeah. It's a big cult. All right. You're welcome. All right. All right, let's get on the line with, let's see, John from North Carolina. John, welcome. You are on the air. Hello, Sergeant Slick. Can you hear me okay? Yeah, I hear you fine, man. What do you got? A little bit of trouble before. So about eight weeks or so ago, playing catch up, you were talking about the Trinity and everything. But you didn't mention quantum physics. Yeah, so what about quantum physics? So 1-0, 1-n-0, we still have the trinity. Okay, I'm not understanding. So having the trinity in everything that we see, right? Yeah. And for quantum computing, we have ones, zeros, and the state of 1 and 0? Yes. Quantum entanglement? Yes, I'm familiar with it. So, would you agree that that's the trinity of quantum computing? No. What do you think the chances of that possibly becoming a communication channel with the communication channel with god is is uh... jesus the scripture yet but i think to be able to actually uh... conversation have conversations with god you can do that anytime you want to just underneath you pray talk to him and uh... he works through circumstances in the word to communicate back uh... totally agree there you understand what i'm asking right I understand where you're going. I am concerned that you'll open yourself up to the occult by doing this. Looking to the creation as a means of communication with God. Now I understand the ideas. When you said on off and both on off. Three states in quantum computing. I get that. But you said, is that the Trinity? No, it's not the Trinity. But it could be... You've explained... I understand. It could be a representation of how the fingerprints of God are in a quantum level. I get that. But you understand that you don't use Ouija boards, and you don't use quantum mechanics to talk to God. No. Are you with me? Yep. Absolutely. That's how it is, and there's a lot going on in quantum mechanics. I like the Copenhagen interpretation of it, which requires a mind, but it's falling out of favor with quantum physicists. But the idea that consciousness is necessary for measurement, actuality, things like this. There's some debates about that. I think the consciousness of God gives the condition of not only intelligibility, but actuality. Because without his awareness and holding everything together by the exertion of his will nothing could exist including the entire universe. Okay? Yes. Because he's outside. I wouldn't say he's outside, I wouldn't say he's inside, I'd just say he relates to time and matter differently than we do. He created it and he can occupy it as well as be out or in or what or through. So, you know, he's God. Okay? All right, buddy. I appreciate it. You have an answer for everything. Well, I don't know about that, but stick with the scriptures, not quantum physics, OK? As a means of communicating with people. No, no, I was just a curious question along the lines of what you were talking about. It just kind of hit me there. But yeah, I appreciate it. Sure, no problem. All right, man. Until next time, well, God bless. Okay. All right. Let's get to Chuck from North Carolina. Chuck, welcome. You are on the air. Chuck, what's up, Chuck? Chuck, are you there? Chuck? Okay, am I hearing you? Give you another few seconds, and then we'll move on to Anthony. Anthony, welcome. You're on the air. Hey, Matt. I called yesterday, if you remember, and I wanted to call back in to get a little more clarification, so I just want to ask this. Is obedience to the commands of God necessary for salvation? No. Okay. So, yesterday when I called, I asked if a Christian could murder someone and go to heaven. So, not murdering someone is one of the Ten Commandments, so You're saying that, you know, telling people, if I tell people they can't murder someone and they won't go to heaven, I'm teaching a false doctrine. Would you agree? So I want you to do me a favor. Would you do me a favor really quickly and put your right hand in front of your face vertically? So it's like between your eyes. Can you do that? Now look to your left. Okay. Now slap yourself upside the head. Okay. Okay. We went over this. And you're not listening. Listen to me. Listen to me. Listen to me. You're not listening to what I said. We talked about a square circle. We're talking about this scenario as even a realistic scenario. You couldn't justify anything that you were saying. You deny the Trinity, deny that Jesus Christ is God in flesh. You teach that you can keep the level of righteousness on the same level as Jesus. That's certainly possible. I told you you're arrogant and you're foolish, and you are. Okay, you cannot, you cannot get around this. What you want to do, like the Muslims do, and others do, and the cults do, what you want to say is, oh, you can murder them, let's go to heaven, right? As if, oh yeah, let's start murdering people, we can still go to heaven, yeah, let's skip down the road holding our hands. No, that's not what we teach. The Bible says... Well, that's the logical implication of what you teach. First John 2... No, it's not. First John 2, 4. If you say you know him, don't keep his commandments. The truth is not in you and you're a liar. We're obligated to follow the love of God and to love our neighbor as ourself. This is what Jesus said we're to do. But that's not what justifies us. Loving God and loving our neighbor isn't what makes us right before God. And if you want to say someone who's a true born-again Christian isn't going to go around murdering people, he's not a true born-again Christian. You have a non sequitur. This is what you and other false teachers do, is you bring up something that doesn't represent the opposition, and then you misrepresent it, and then you pose it back as though it's true. And it's not. So you have misrepresented Christian position. Okay, hold on one second. Yeah, it's so much heresy. So little time to get back. I'm gonna be a little bit tough on him, because he's gonna need it. He's like a dog returning back to the vomit. He's not listening, not learning. Why? He's not regenerate. We'll be right back, folks, after these messages. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick. All right, everybody. Two open lines, 877-207-2276. Let's get to Anthony back again. Okay, Anthony, go ahead. All right, here's the problem I have with what you're teaching. If I go out and teach people that they have to repent of their sins to be saved, then you're telling me that I'm teaching a false gospel, but that's exactly what Jesus taught. You're telling me I'm a heretic for teaching what Jesus taught. Dude, where did I say you don't have to repent of your sins? For salvation. You have to repent of your sins for salvation. Oh, so is repenting of the sins doing what's right according to the law? Yes, because you have to turn from your sins. So then the answer is yes, you said. So then you have to keep the law to be saved? Yes. Moral law. Yes. Are you keeping the law? Maybe. I don't know. Maybe. Maybe. I mean, I'm not. I don't think it matters. So you don't know. So which means you don't know. So you're not doing good enough, obviously. So you're lost by your own words. Maybe. Yeah. Yeah. But I don't think everyone's judged because Jesus says you'll be judged by your own words. Now, Paul, the apostle says, we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. OK. That's not what Jesus taught, though. Jesus did teach you have to repent for the forgiveness of sin. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Wait a minute. Are you going to pick and choose what the Bible says now? No, I think your understanding is incorrect about that, because Jesus clearly teaches in numerous locations that you... Hold on. Hold on. Is what Paul said inspired? Is it scripture? It's scripture. I'll give it that. Okay, and Scripture means it's inspired. Is it inspired? Not necessarily. I don't believe all Scripture is inspired. So when Jesus called Paul the Apostle to be his apostle in Acts 9, is that accurate or inaccurate? I would probably say it's inaccurate. So Luke wrote the Gospel of Luke, and he also wrote Acts. So was Luke wrong when he recorded what Jesus said there in Acts? Well, actually, we really don't know who wrote Acts. OK. Look, I'm going to tell you something, Anthony. I've got him on hold. There's only so much time I'm going to waste talking with someone who can't think clearly, doesn't understand the issues, is serving the evil one, and is trying to undermine the truth of who God is. He's a servant of the evil one. He's a child of the devil. And when I say that, it's not me just getting mad and throwing things out. We've already had conversations. and he's already confirmed he denies who God is, denies who Christ is, and he's now adding work to salvation. He is a false teacher and he's not a true convert of Christ. He picks and chooses what he likes out of scripture and he judges the Word of God. So this is the sign of someone who is completely unregenerate, who is completely lost, and you need to pray for him. He doesn't know what he's doing and can't argue critically or clearly. He doesn't understand the issues. Let's get to Mike from Ohio. Hey, Mike, welcome. You're on the air. Hey, good evening. I'm actually kind of glad that you were dealing with that caller because that's what I was calling about from last night. You know, the answer, and correct me if I'm wrong, please jump in and tell me I'm wrong if you think I'm wrong. The answer to the question, do you commit murder and still go to heaven? That's actually a pretty simple answer, in my opinion. The answer is yes, if you truly are remorseful and repentant and you repent unto God. You'll be forgiven. And if you stop that action, now you keep committing murder and you can't just keep going back and saying, God, I'm sorry, God, I'm sorry, God, because you're obviously not sorry. Right. But I could be a mafia hit man and decide that I need to repent and God will forgive me. Well said. I mean, is that correct? Yes, it is. As a matter of fact, there was a mafia hitman who became a Christian and he repented. Jeffrey Dahmer, for example, he repented apparently. It seems to be a true conversion and in prison before he was murdered. And so those who've repented of their sins. What about people who've killed the unborn in abortion? You know, can they be forgiven? The answer is yes. And then there's lots of issues here. Now he says, as a Christian, can you do it? Well, I think that there are conditions where a Christian can lose his cool, make a huge mistake, be super angry, and do what is evil. Just as David, he premeditatedly had Uriah killed. David Besheba's husband. And yet he was forgiven. He repented. So what this guy is saying is, you just do it without any repentance. That means you're not a Christian. You don't have any conviction. You don't have any issues like that. And he just doesn't get it. He doesn't understand what regeneration is. Because he's not regenerating. Exactly. And I completely agree with you in the fact that what he needs rather than... Because we're never going to convince him talking to him. You know, the only person that's going to convince him is God. We just need to pray for him that he... that God opens his eyes and shows him truth. Absolutely correct. Yeah, because God is not giving them that faith. It might be that God's judging him, which is why he's believing so much of demonic doctrines and teachings. Exactly. Exactly. Well, I thank you for your time. Hey, no problem. And thanks for calling. I liked the way you said that. And good stuff, brother. Good stuff. All right. Thank you. Thank you. All right. Let's get to Chuck from North Carolina. Chuck, welcome. You're on the air. Chuck. I think we lost Chuck. It's the same one from before. So I'll give him another few seconds. Chuck, from North Carolina, regarding children and family life, cannot hear you. So what I'm going to do is hang up on you. And if you are hearing me, just call back, OK? All right. Let's get to, I guess, Car from Las Vegas. Welcome. You are here. Yeah. Hi. Hi. So what do you got? Mike? Yes, that's me. Yes. Hi. Hi, sir. Yes, I have a son who was a pretty devout Christian as of seven months ago. And just all of a sudden, he just fell from the faith. And once- He's what, the faith? Nothing to do with it. Oh, he- I'm sorry? He went away. Okay. I didn't hear the one word. Okay. Something, the faith. So he left the faith. Okay. Oh. Yeah. Right, right. you know and and reading you know from from your daughter you know kinda coincides with with with some things you know he was really devout and really into the world let me ask you did he read stuff from my daughter or just coincidental similar okay oh no no I just read I just read you know things from your daughter I haven't even read it you know and I just remember reading about about your daughter you know a few years ago And since my son's going through it, I'm like, wow, I remember reading that from your daughter. And when I looked it up again, I was actually hoping to read that she came back. But I read the full story and I'm going through the same thing. And I just want to know what advice can you give me since you're living through it? The advice I can give you is to be loving and patient and kind and pray. And that's what I do with my daughter. For those who don't know, because my family is kind of public, but my wife has medical conditions issues and I have three daughters. One loves the Lord, the other two don't. One is my eldest daughter, who you're talking about, and then my middle daughter is in the New Age movement. And that's just how it is. And so my middle daughter, you know, she comes over all the time. And she was here last night, as a matter of fact. And we get along fine. And we have a game where we try and sneak up on each other and scare each other. And so she got me the last one. So, you know, it's on. And my wife and I talk about religious stuff by the Lord. She's very patient, she hears, but she's just not there. But we pray and try to intercede for her. And our other daughter, when you're talking about, she's not here in this state, so we don't communicate very often. I only see her on holidays, basically. And so our communication is pretty low. All right, having said all of that, I can say lots of stuff about her. There's a lot of stuff people don't know. But I'm not going to say it publicly. I'm not even going to write it down. But what I will say is that what you've got to do is love them and not push on them. And just be kind. And ask God to be merciful because he's the one who draws them. But he wants nothing to do with me either. I don't know. See, what happened was he went to a trade school in Boise, Idaho. When he came back, he was a changed person and wanted nothing to do with it. Like I said, it happened six months ago. He was arrested. Hold on. We've got a break. Hold on. We've got a break, buddy. I want to hear you. Because I live in the Boise, Idaho area. So you've got to be curious. Folks, we'll be right back after these messages. We have several open lines. 877-207-2276. We'll be right back. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick. Hello? What happened? There we go. All right. So just want to let you know that we stay on the air by your support. All you got to do is go to carm.org forward slash donate. C-A-R-M dot O-R-G forward slash donate. And everything you need is right there. So there you go. Let's get back on with CAR. Okay. You still there? Yes, sir. Yeah. So he went to a trade school in Boise. I live 20 minutes from Boise. I don't know if you know that. Oh, okay. So he's not, he's not still up here, right? No, he graduated from the trade school there. And coming back, yeah, because before he was a Christian, you know, he was getting involved in drugs and was very skeptical, you know, even growing up in a religion up into the point of about a year ago where he gave himself, he surrendered, he gave himself to the Lord and was on fire. He was on fire for him. Uh, you know, going to church and even, you know, I'd let him to a, I thought it was a Christian church in Boise and, um, uh, he just came back not wanting anything to do with it. I think he got involved in drugs again and now he's just isolated. He's 21 years old and still lives at home. Well, you know, the male brain isn't really mature until 25. Drugs can be bad. If he has injectable drugs, that's more dangerous demonically than non-injectables. So, uh, I'd be willing to talk to him if he's, you know, I mean, just offering it if he'd talk to me because talking to dad, he'll, you say the same thing I will. He won't hear you, but he might hear me. That kind of thing. So if that, you know, if that's all he's open to that, I'd be willing to talk to him and listen. If not, okay. And then I, then I have my other son, my middle son, uh, who just came out to say that he was gay and he's 20 years old and, uh, It just makes me feel so much like a failure as a father. I mean, what am I doing? Yeah, I know. Yeah, I know how that is. So if you know about my oldest daughter, then you know a lot more, right? Yes. Do you know? Yeah. So how do you think that makes me feel? So, yeah, there is, you know, You know, you try and raise your children for the Lord. You teach them. You're not perfect. You make your mistakes. And sometimes they remember only the mistakes and they choose to follow those. And then they disregard other things. And some children are are really bad, and they do that. Other children, they see parents make mistakes. No parent's perfect. And they get it. And they work through it. And it's up to the child, to that person. So your sons are making your choices. And I say this not just, hey, matter of factly, that's just way to see later by. It's like they're making choices and God is allowing them to make choices. And all we can do is just ask that God open their hearts. And we just like it's like your situation and mine, you know, they were in the Lord and now they're out. Do we pray and do we expect them to come back that they are saved? Or can you walk away from them? No, you can't lose your salvation. But the Bible says they were not from us because they never were of us. If they had been of us, they would have remained. That's what I fear. Now there's things I could say about my daughters, which I'm not going to. But there's always two sides to stuff. And what the public hears is one side. But I've never even read what my daughter has said. And people have used her against me and things like that. And I refuse to, so to speak, give the other side. Because as Christ went to that cross, people spit on him, yelled at him, and hate him. I'm not comparing myself to Jesus, but the example of not answering back and to love nonetheless. This is what we're to do. And this is what you're to do. And it's hard. Right. It's just, it's hard. It is. Especially when they live with you and, you know, they know where I stand, especially my son claims to be gay, and I can't even imagine that. Yeah. And, you know, if I were in your situation, I would say, you're welcome to be here and stay here, but that practice is not allowed here. It just can't happen. It won't happen. And you can't bring over your so-to-speak partners and expect me to approve. This is not because I don't love you, because I serve my Lord. And that's it. And they're mature enough, you know, that they can understand where you're coming from and be respectful of that. And if they're not, they need to get out. It's not because you want to kick them out. But what you mentioned earlier, though, just a few minutes ago, where they were never of us, or they were never left, or, you know, they're saved and they're just going through rebellious. Is that something we will never know? It's only between God and them? Yeah, that's correct. People can be saved and go through a rebellious stage, and it can be enigmatic how that's possible, and yet God has never left them. And that is possible. But we have to consider them as being unsaved and treat them as unbelievers. not in a disrespectful, condemning, mocking way, but we treat unbelievers differently than believers. We pray for them and their salvation. You know, they're just differences. And that's what you do. It's not easy. It's an anchor around the heart that you drag around everywhere. Right. I guess, I mean, if this leads me, I mean, I don't know if you recall Billy Graham's when he was getting into the ministry and he had a partner and they said I forget his name but this partner was bigger and better than him. Do you know who I'm talking about? Yeah, I forget his name, but yeah, he went apostate, yeah. Right, and yeah, totally fell away, but I mean this is somebody that brought thousands of people to the Lord and he was into it. And I remember Lee Strobel, he's the one, he interviewed him before he died, and I was just trying to grab him, asking the question, you know, were you saved that you walked away, that you even thought you were saved? And that's what just leaves me puzzled. Well, here's the thing. Yes, because there is going to be an apostasy of individuals as well as the church as a whole. And the Bible talks about those who grow up having believed for a while, then they fall away. There are different kinds of belief in the Bible. But when God grants what we believe, He grants it that it's in Christ. That's Philippians 1.29 and John 6.29. And He says, He will never leave us or forsake us. Hebrews 13 talks about this. And so if Jesus canceled our sin debt at the cross, then it means all of our sin is canceled. We can't lose it. So the issue here then becomes, what is going on in the spiritual level? And we can't say. I have friends who would not agree with me that a Christian can drift that far. I believe it's possible that God can yank his leash when they get so far away. That there's a reason for it. But I believe it's possible, not normative. So we can, but it still says we don't know. We pray for their salvation as though they're unbelievers. And that's what I do with my two oldest daughters. As far as I'm concerned, they have rejected God, rejected Christ, rejected the truth. They've made their own decisions. They know better, they've been taught. And they reject Him for their own prideful reasons. That's what it ultimately comes down to. and it's not a mock or a judgment it's just this is what we understand scripturally and so we pray for them and all my children are welcome in the home and stuff like that but we won't allow their sin in the home and they know that and they're they know any problem with that you know they're fine so right but you still you still hold on to the hope and praying that they come back Absolutely. My wife and I pray for them basically every night maybe once a month we might miss one but we pray for them all the time. I'm reminded of a story I heard about a woman praying for her son for something like 30 years and she just kept praying and he was gone and then before she passed away he became a Christian Wow. I never forgot that. Like 30 years. Okay. And you do read stories like that. So just never give up. Never give up. As long as they're alive, then they have hope. Once they die, I stop praying for them. Yeah. Because there's no choice at that point. They made their fate. That's right. And the world is getting... To ask you, do you go through the same thing I'm going through? Or do you just go back and forth? Are they saved? Are they a rebellion? Or are they never were of us? Do you go back and forth with that? Yeah, sometimes, but not very often. I just say, Lord, I don't know. I consider them unbelievers. Which logically would mean they never were saved. And like I said, I can't say certain things. I just don't want to. But I've observed certain things with them growing up. That, you know, how legit this and that. And so, you know, all you can do is just love them. I love them, even when they say bad things about you. I remember one of our daughters had a friend who lived here with us. We were helping her out a great deal. She moved out after a few months and found out that she was talking real evil stuff about me. Very disrespectful and condemning things about me personally. I met her afterwards. I'm surprised why you would say that." I said, you know, I loved you, and we helped you, and I said, why would you say that? And she looks at me and she goes, I don't know. She goes, you're a great guy. He says, I don't know why I did. I said, do you realize it hurt? And it's not true. And I said, look, I'm going to tell you something. You're still welcome in our house. All right? It's okay. You're still welcome. And that's all you can do. Right. And, you know, and I learned from you, I mean, just watching a lot of your videos along with Jeff Durbin, you know, just, I mean, some of the, I mean, had some fantastic dialogues with, with Mormons and that they, they're stumped in a corner. They have no response, but they still choose to stay with it. Yep. And it's not comprehensible to me, but I guess they're blind. They're blind. Yeah. That's why we ought to pray. And Jeff's a great guy, and we've done this conference together, and we've talked a few times. He's a good man. He loves the Lord. Yeah. Same with James White. Yeah, and you guys, I mean, gosh, I wish I could talk to people like you guys, too. You guys do a great job and it just amazes me how they still walk away with not wanting who Christ really is. Right. So what I pray is, Lord, if they're not elect, please elect them. You know, I'm just saying, I don't know how it works. Oh, there's the music. All right. Right. OK, brother. God bless, man. OK, thanks. And sorry, Allie from Virginia. you have a comment about Jesus, I wanna hear it. I hope you call back tomorrow and we can talk. And I apologize for the long wait, but that's just how it went. So folks, there you go. By God's grace, we're back on here tomorrow, and hopefully you'll be tuning in. So may the Lord bless you. Have a great evening.