Putman Plumbing makes a living by servicing their clients' needs. They make their life by how they service their clients, from the first phone call to when they leave your home when the job is done. Putman Plumbing is dedicated to providing top-of-the-line quality work. Call Putman Plumbing. That's with a P, as in your preferred plumber. Putman Plumbing. How can we make you smile? Welcome to the Frederick Faith Debate on Frederick's News Radio 930 WFMD. I'm your host and moderator, Troy Skinner. Appreciate you listening this morning. Faith Debate is a show where the truth matters, baby. And we're going to talk about, we're going to try to make heads or tails of what we think the truth is about a very difficult subject today. Jonathan Schweitzer, Senior Pastor at Crossroads Valley Chapel. Thank you for being on the panel again today, my friend. Yeah, yeah, you got your spiritual mojo back today, apparently. Todd Westfall is the senior rowing. There you have it. Shalom Alesha. Good to see you. El Shaddai congregation, a Messianic Jewish group in Frederick. And, um, last week we started our conversation talking, uh, well, we started talking about glee on Fox, but then we, then we started talking about moving on about end times. All right. And last week we introduced a word of the week. Last week's word of the week was rowing. That's right. Which means shepherd shepherd. This week's word of the week is eschatology. Yes. Or eschatological, we could go with that too, right? So eschatology, things pertaining to, having to do with the end times. It's, you know, it has to do, it's a theological term. So today we're talking about eschatology, things that are eschatological. Yeah. And you have to smile when you say that. What's the eschatological significance of that? You know, so if somebody says eschatology, I know what that means. And they're going to say, really? Cause I don't know. I just like saying the word makes me smile. What does it mean? I'll know. Eschatology. So, end times. End times, biblically speaking, is, you know, the last days, the end of time as we know it, however you want to define that, because that's kind of what we're talking about here. That's where we're headed, right? Oftentimes, the second coming of the Messiah, the millennium, the tribulation, the rapture, all those types of terms. Exactly. Those are all end times things. If you've read the Left Behind series or seen the Left Behind movies, people talk about the rapture and the church disappearing from the earth one day. Those are all kind of end times ideas. Are they biblical or not? Those are the kinds of things that we're addressing. We're not going to get to all of that today. That's too much to bite off. But last week we were talking about the role of the nation of Israel, the geopolitical nation state of Israel and its role in end times. And the big question is whether or not they have a role in God's purposes as we see in Scripture all the way up to the end times as a geopolitical nation, or if all of the references to them in the Old Testament are now to be understood as referring to the church. Would you say that's right? Yeah, except I'd want to be careful, because I think it's – I'm sensitive to it because I'm concerned about my view of how this all should be understood could be misunderstood by what you just said. Good, good. I would want to say that we shouldn't say that things in the Old Testament are merely pointing to Jesus. There are other things they're pointing to, too. And there's definitely a role in the Bible for the nation of Israel. I mean, there's no denying that fact. All you have to do is open it up and read and you can see, oh, there's this nation Israel and there's a role for them, you know? So there's no denying that, but I'm saying that ultimately, or penultimately, everything's fulfilled in, it's pointing to the person and work of Jesus Christ. To which I think we're all in agreement. Nevertheless, that means for you what? Well, I want to back up, and go with the cliffhanger. If you were listening last week, we ended with a cliffhanger, and I wanted to point out that the Old Testament, the Bible, the biblical narrative, doesn't begin with the story of Abraham. It doesn't even begin with the fall of man. It begins with creation. The Spirit hovering over the waters. Right. It begins with God and His most miraculous act. Sure. You know, I would say the second most miraculous act is the resurrection and ascension of Jesus Christ. But the most miraculous act, for my money and the Bible, is God created everything out of nothing, including the space in which to put it. I mean, that's a pretty spectacular miracle. So that's where we start. It's a big bang. Right? And everything is great and hunky-dory, and then, you know, Adam and Eve, they kind of, you know, decide to do things their own way. The snake. Right? The apple or fruit. And then there's this curse. Yeah. Right? And ever since then, you know, we've been living with the consequences of that curse. Yeah. That's where the Bible starts. It starts with that story. Sure. So in that context, Yeah, there's this curse, you know, work's gonna be hard for the man, and the woman's gonna, you know, have desires for her husband. I understand, to me, that she's gonna desire to have her husband's place, that she's gonna not appreciate his leadership in the family dynamic and that sort of thing. Childbearing's gonna be painful, you know, those sorts of things. We have a tendency to think about all these negative things, but there's also an incredible promise. And that is that the serpent is going to have his head crushed, right? He will bruise the heel, but that heel is going to crush that serpent, right? And the one that, who is it that crushes the head of the serpent? Christ. Yeshua. Well, the seed of the woman. So, by my understanding, the whole rest of the Bible is explaining to us who that seed of the woman is and how God in his providence and care and making all these covenants, all these covenants of promise, are promises for provision of the seed of the woman. Okay, so how is anything that we've been saying different from that? I'm saying that the whole Bible isn't wrapped up in Israel and what's important for Israel. They were an important piece and an incredibly important part of redemptive historical history, but they're that. They're a part of redemptive historical history. The story is so much larger and bigger than that that predates the inauguration and beginning of that nation. Okay, but once again, I think we're in full agreement with that. So how's that different from what we're saying? I'm saying that everything is pointing to Jesus ultimately. Period. And that's all that is going to really matter. I'm in full agreement. And Israel has, as a nation state, has played its role. Okay, and that's where we divert sure we would right and my question has been and you know continues to be up Why should we think differently if the whole point of the Old Testament? Is that it's pointing to the Lord and Savior Jesus and the fulfillment of those covenant promises in Jesus? Everything's about Jesus centered on Jesus revolves around Jesus. Yeah, why do we feel like we need to interject? that back into the story, any more than we would interject anything else from the Old Testament. What's interesting, I always feel like this is similar to Catholicism's emphasis on the Virgin Mary. Why does she matter? Well, she matters just because she birthed him. And we're told that all generations will call her blessed. So whether you go as far as the Catholics and you say we need to pray to the Virgin Mary, who is an eternal virgin and was conceived immaculately and is something of a co-redemptrix, which I feel like is not biblical theology. Whether you go that far or whether you just recognize, you know what? the virgin mary played a role that was vital you know to the purposes of god and at the end of the day when christ was hanging on the cross it was very important to him to make sure that she was taken care of and all i'm saying is that Israel as the original people of God were given the impression that God does the exact same thing for them and I agree that he's going to take care of them just like Mary was taken care of by John until the end of her life that in the same way until the end of human existence. God is going to take care of Israel in a special way, such that they're still a nation, they still have an identity, and that one day, as it says in Romans 11, that all Israel will be saved. That they have a special role in history that will remain as a nation, just like Mary had a special role, so much that He gave His most beloved disciple responsibility. See, it's the part about the special role as a nation part that I guess is where we end up dividing. Because I agree with everything else you said. Right. You believe that God not only will, but has already the finished work of the cross provided that special provision for the people of Israel. They already have that covering, that protection, that promise is fulfilled in Christ. There's no need for any additional promise or future fulfillment of that. They already have it, just like the Gentiles now also have it, because they can be, according to the Bible, using biblical language, they can be grafted into that. That promise remains, but it's still the original tree. It's not like that tree has disappeared and will come back. The tree is still there. It's always been there. And what is the original tree? The original tree are the chosen people of God, the elect of God. that were typified in the Old Testament by the nation to be an example unto the world. Sure. To be a light to the world, yeah. But now who's to be an example unto the world and who's a light unto the world but the Christian? Both. And the Savior, Jesus Christ. Both the believing Jew and the Christian working together. But a believing Jew is a Christian. Well, you're kind of contradicting yourself a little, Troy, because you just said the Gentiles have been engrafted into Israel. Who's engrafted into who? Is the church engrafted in by their faith in the Messiah of Israel? On the cross it said in three languages, King of the Jews. See, I hear what you're saying, but I don't think I'm contradicting because I'm using the words differently. When I say Israel, and I'm talking about the geopolitical nation state of Israel, that is different than the people of Israel. Right, but again, it's hard to tether those two things separately apart in the covenants and the things that God has established with Israel as a nation, with Israel as a people, and with Israel as a geographic land. In fact, I'm glad for you to split that particular hair because I feel like that hair was split pervasively in the Old Testament. When the people of God did not live under the government of God, then they came under the judgment of God all through the Old Testament. I'm of the opinion that that's still true today for the nation of Israel. If the nation of Israel, if the Jewish people, who I'm of the opinion still hold a special place in his historical purposes and in his heart because of the covenant, because they're like Mary as it were, that he's going to take care of them, he's promised them certain things, that if that's the case then then it's not like they're just blessed and that's it. But he treats them just like he's always treated them. If they reject him and they reject his purposes, then they come under judgment just like they ever did. You know that that's always been the case. And of course, God's also doing that currently with the church. But I don't see a problem with God doing both of those things at the same time. I believe that the Church, and this may be semantics, but when I think of the Church, I think of the Church as all believers from all time, including the Old Testament saints. They all make up the body of Christ. They all make up the body of believers who are saved through Christ. So they're all His Church. They're all the Bride of Christ. I'm comfortable saying that. Ephesians is very clear that at once you and I, and Todd, by the way, Railway Westfall is a Gentile, raised a Methodist. We're estranged from God. Go ahead. We were estranged from the covenants of promise. That was never the case for the nation of Israel. They were never estranged from the covenants of promise. Generation after generation. And they're still not. But you and I, whether they're a nation-state or not, they're still not. But you and I, in our heritage, our forefathers and our great-great-grandfathers going back generations, all the way back to probably the time of Noah, Our ancestors did not live under the covenants of promise, except for Noah's promise and the Adamic covenant and the Noahic covenant. You know, the covenant with Noah, the covenant with Adam. You know, we lived under those, but we have not lived under any of the other blessing and covenants of God up until Christ came. But in Christ, all those things are yes and amen, and I'm saying that Israel was never not a part of those and and so again that's part of what makes them unique that's what that's what paul says when he says they have an irrevocable call they've been you know they've been given over to disobedience for a period of time we're told till the times of the gentiles are fulfilled you know but then they'll be brought back to repentance, and that God seems to, there in Romans, give the impression then that there's a... I just sometimes get the impression that anybody who would want, and I'm not saying you're saying this about me, by the way, but anybody who would say, well, you know, Israel's role was fulfilled in the first coming of Christ, and therefore we don't need to be looking for any future fulfillment or You know, nothing has to happen with a nation-state of Israel before Jesus can come again, whatever. But that could sometimes be taken as, oh, you're just a Jew-hating anti-Semite, you know. Oh, I would never think that or say that. No, but that can be sometimes the concern. Good. It's important to say that, because you're clearly not that. But again, there are those. that do have that view for the sake of replacement theology, they're much more strong in their view by saying God is done with Israel. They're done with the people, and now it's only the church. And if Israel or the Jewish people are going to have anything, they're going to have to come to the Lord to be part of anything that God is doing. And I'm saying that God still has a plan for Israel, and even that the New Covenant, as Jeremiah said in Jeremiah 31, He made a covenant, the new covenant that we look at as the church, was made with Israel. Jeremiah said, a new covenant I will make with Israel. So even the new covenant of the coming Messiah, the Christ, was made as Jeremiah spoke it, and he was persecuted for it. I mean, he was the weeping prophet because of his speaking of this new Messiah, this new covenant. But when you talk about, you know, Israel, what are we talking about? Are we talking about the Northern Kingdom? Is Judah considered part of Israel? Well, this is precisely what I was saying last week. Is it just one of the tribes? In Ezekiel 37, what we're told is that he's going to bring them all back to the land. There's a myriad of prophecies that says, I will return you to the land, Ezekiel 37 being a key one. And in that passage he says, I'm going to take David, which represents Judah, the tribe of Judah, and I'm going to take Joseph and I'm going to bind them together, which represents the northern tribes. And so that's precisely the point, that the prophecies seem to give this impression he's going to pull them all back together. Right. So if the idea is that God's going to pull all of his people together, why can't we understand Israel as the church? If Israel can be a person, because it's an individual's name, Jacob is named Israel in the Old Testament, if Israel can be a person, it can also be a tribe, it can also be the northern half of a kingdom, it can also be an entire kingdom, can't it also be the entire people of God? Sure, and that's what Paul said. What did Paul say? Paul said, a Jew is one who's one inwardly. the circumcision of the heart. He says it earlier in Romans. But what he's talking about here is an understanding, a messianic Jewish understanding of the Messiah. Let's give another example. In Acts, the wrestling that went on when Gentiles started flooding into the kingdom, the question wasn't, you know, what was the question? What are we going to do with all these Gentiles? Do they have to be circumcised? Do they have to do all of the things that God commanded Israel to do? And the answer was no, because God had made that covenant with Israel, they're still to walk out that covenant. But what did they decide? Well, don't eat meat sacrificed to idols, don't commit fornication, adultery, all of the things that came out in Acts 15 for Gentiles to do. But then he says later on, because I know they will go and they will learn of Moses. They will understand exactly why the Messiah came and how he came. So they would be disciples of the Lord. Yeah, it seems to me like God makes promises to Israel as a nation in the Old Testament. And as you study the context, it's clear if he's referring to the whole nation or is just – oftentimes Israel does refer to the Northern Ten Tribes and Judah refers to the Southern Ten Tribes. But if you're paying attention – Southern Two Tribes. Sorry, Two Tribes, yeah. Judah and Benjamin. Yeah, yeah. Very good, Troy. You get an A for the day. Eschatology. N times. That's the word for the day. So the point is that whenever I'm studying it, I feel like it's very easy for me to tell which Israel he's referring to. But it's also very clear, I feel like, in the Old Testament when he's referring to the Gentiles and the fact that he's going to rule over the Gentiles and he's going to bring the Gentiles to Jerusalem to worship. And the fact of the matter is that he has done that. Christians all over the world, it's not like it's a requirement or a law, but we all make our pilgrimages to Israel to learn about what happened and how God did it and to study the land. And it seems to me like it's not that hard to tell, which Israel he's talking about when he's talking about it. talking about it. You're listening to The Faith Debate. I'm Troy Skinner. That's Jonathan Switzer, Senior Pastor at Crossroads Valley Chapel and the Senior Roeh, am I getting it closer? The Senior Roeh at El Shaddai Congregation, Todd Westfall. All right, okay. I see the promises that you guys are talking about as promises to Israel as promises to Abraham. all right, and those promises find their fulfillment ultimately in Christ. Abraham, two generations later, ends up being, you know, the birther of what we now would call the nation of Israel, I guess, and they end up being a picture of Christ. So God sets things up so that they have, you know, they have the priests are set up, and Christ is a perfect priest. They end up having a king, and Christ is a perfect king. You know, they have all of the They have the law, and Christ is the perfect fulfillment of the law. You have all these things that are... So the promises to Abraham, the people that follow two generations later in the individual Jacob who then births the nation of Israel, then typify what is to come in Christ. And once Christ comes and fulfills what's typified, And that role, it seems to me, would have played itself out. Not that the people of Israel – I hate to say Jews because it makes it seem like I'm limiting it to Judah. It's hard to find the right language here. The Israelites sounds too Old Testament. You know, the Hebrews, whatever. Yeah, okay, not that the Hebrews, the Jews, the Israelites don't still have a role. It's not like God has thrown them away. I don't see it as anything has changed. God made a promise to Abraham. That promise to Abraham is that the world will be blessed in the same, because of the same reason that Abraham was being blessed, through faith. His faith was accounted to him as righteousness. So then this nation set apart to be an example and a light unto the world is set up. And we have examples like Rahab, for example, who is not a Hebrew, but was grafted in, if you will, in the Old Testament as part of the nation of Israel. So the nation of Israel representing the people of Israel has people joining it, who then are also identified with the people of Israel, and hence, therefore, also called Israelites. It's the same deal in the New Testament. There's just a heck of a lot more Gentiles grafted in now, and so the people of Israel are still the people of Israel. And it feels like it's diminishing. And again, we're all in agreement with that. I feel like it's diminishing, actually, Christ. Yeah, well this is interesting because at the end of the day, Calvinists feel like you're diminishing the sovereignty and the glory of God if you give us any human free will whatsoever, any choice in salvation. Hyper-Calvinists would agree with that. Hyper-Calvinists would agree with that. Real Calvinists probably would cringe that you just categorized them that way. I think they would agree with me that they are passionate to make sure that God gets the glory that he deserves. But they don't minimize human responsibility. Right, but the reason they call themselves Calvinists is because they are anxious and passionate to magnify the glory of God. And my point is that I feel like the same thing's true here. I don't see any conflict with recognizing that God is going to do something unique with Gog and Magog in the end times, that God's going to do something unique with Temen and people that he's going to bring in for Armageddon for the great final battle, that God's going to do something unique, say, with with the way that he interacts with China, with the way that he interacts with people down in Africa, that God interacts with each group of people on the face of the earth unique. And all I'm saying is that the uniqueness of his relationship with Israel means that in history, they're going to continue to play a unique role and so there's a historical thing that he's doing there were gaga may guys going to be one thing so that i don't agree that the people will play an important role but not necessarily the nation state anymore that i believe that a modern-day nation state called babylon will play a role in end times just because the same word is used i think it's representing something different. Babylon in the Old Testament maybe is pointing to the idea of how Babylon is used in the New Testament. Well, I definitely would say that the contemporary Israel that we're talking about is definitely different in its governmental structure and everything that it's doing. You think? Yeah, well, excellent. So I don't think that there's a… What are those secular humanist governments on the planet? Absolutely. And that's why they need the Lord. That's why they need the Gospel. That's why people that we know are there preaching the Gospel in Hebrew and holding up Isaiah 53 and say, who's he talking about here, you know? He's talking about your Messiah. But it plays a role because God said in the end times, all of the earth, the nations are going to come against Israel in the great battle. There's got to be an Israel and a nation for that to take place. Now, but see that great battle being taken place against the church. Do you think it's going to take place in the Middle East? Maybe. I don't know that it has to. I mean, think about this. See, this is the thing. All of your maybes happen to be playing out historically. Israel is a nation again, and it does seem that the Middle East is the focus of all of the major, you know, whether it's atheism in the UN, like you're saying, Israel itself being very atheist, or in Islam, it seems like everything's focused on You know, what's going on there? Maybe that's why we lean in that direction. We're historically stuck because there's so much going on in that part of the world right now. What happens if somehow, 20 years from now, the nation-state of Israel ceases to exist? Mahmoud Abdemajad follows through on his threat and he turns modern-day Israel into a crater. you know and the and the uh... waters of the mediterranean sea sweep over it and now it's just the it's the uh... west bank of the middle east where the mediterranean meets iraq or something or jordan or whatever i mean what happens then well i believe it in what you're talking about god that would be the time where we would see got intervene in the messiah return which brings us to the end times what we believe about the end time right exactly because at this stage of the ballgame israel is a nation, a nation-state that has returned, and they've come from all nations of the world. And that's never happened anywhere else in history. So it's very unique. The language is restored, and there's the sense that even though they've returned to the land, that they have not returned to the Lord. And so we're all anticipating what's yet to happen. Where are we in eschatology? And that's the big question. Well, we have to wrap up the show here in a second. I'm going to say that I'm going to completely concede that God has a special plan and purpose and role for even modern-day nation-state Israel, just like God has a special plan and role for every existing modern-day geopolitical nation and state. But would you also concede that his design for them, that we're given some clarity about that particular design in Scripture, whereas that's not necessarily the case with the United States? I think that, as I read, particularly what Paul writes in Romans about his brethren Jews, I don't think there's any denying that God has a special place in His heart for the Jewish people. I don't know that I would necessarily need to extend that to a Jewish nation-state. I think maybe that's where there's, maybe kind of where the divide is. And that might be a reasonably good place for us to pause. Just so you know, just so you know, that's a great discussion. There's a lot of Orthodox Jews that agree with you, and that's why many of them fought against Israel becoming its own state in 1948. Those Orthodox Jews are smart individuals. Well, it's going to be an interesting conversation with them, for sure. Anyway, Jonathan Switzer, Senior Pastor at Crossroads Valley Chapel, thank you very much for being on the show again. Todd Westfall, the Senior Roway at... I'm probably putting too much emphasis on that, right? No, you're hitting it right. I'm trying, anyway. El Shaddai Congregation. His mannerism when he's doing it. Yeah, it's like I'm Vanna White showing off the letters in Wheel of Fortune. Yeah, yeah, you don't want to see that. Anyway, I'm Troy Skinner. This has been the Frederick Faith Debate on 930WFMV. Thanks for listening. God bless. Putman Plumbing makes a living by servicing their clients' needs. They make their life by how they service their clients, from the first phone call to when they leave your home when the job is done. Putman Plumbing is dedicated to providing top-of-the-line quality work. Call Putman Plumbing. That's with a P, as in your preferred plumber. Putman Plumbing. How can we make you smile?