Welcome to True World View, an analysis of news, culture, and theological trends from a biblical perspective. This is your place for intelligent conversation on ultimate questions and the relevant issues of our day. Here are your hosts, Christi Johnson and Dr. Paul Deen. Alright, welcome to True World View. Glad to be with you today. Glad to be with you, Christi. Going to talk about something serious as always. Congress is moving forward with articles of impeachment. Now, the reality is I'm not trying to get bogged down in details, not trying to give you a blow by blow of what's happening day by day. You know, they're in session right now, as a matter of fact. But by the time this broadcast airs, who knows? But the essential issue that we just want to touch on, not because we're you know, political commentators. We are Christian worldview commentators, and so we're going to try to bring a biblical worldview perspective to some of the things that have been said at least recently. Sound good? Sounds good. I'm excited about this one because to be honest, I don't follow politics that closely, but I do try to think deeply as much as I have time for. So I'm excited to talk about this and get into it. Well, I know you think deeply, and I used to follow politics with a passion. I don't follow it as closely now, not because I'm bored or tired, but I know what the Bible says about human government. It's essentially evil. And by the way, we should talk about that. We should do a series of broadcasts on what the Bible actually says about human government, because I think there's a lot of confusion in the Christian world about that. I think there's a lot that the scriptures say with regard to it, and I think Romans 13 is largely misunderstood. But anyway, I'm getting too far afield already. That's okay. We'll put that on the list. Yeah, let's do that. But, you know, what we're talking about here is President Trump and the fact that Nancy Pelosi and the Democrats, they are literally trying to remove a sitting president. They're trying to remove a duly elected president who has done nothing to warrant articles of impeachment. And that's a problem. Doesn't matter who the president is, whether it's Barack Obama or Bill Clinton, or George Bush, or Donald Trump, it's not a good thing to try to usurp the will of the people when they've duly elected him. And what we're talking about, and I don't know that everyone thinks in these terms, perhaps some, but what we're talking about is a literal coup. It's a coup d'etat, and it may be one without arms, But it is nevertheless just that, and that's a problem in a civil society. It's not that we have to have the form of government that we have according to the scriptures. It's not that Donald Trump is a moral guy or anything like that. But if we're going to have a civil society, this is one of those things that cannot happen. Does that make sense? Yeah, and it's one of the things that makes America, America. The fact that we, the people, get to have a say and make our voice heard and vote for who we want to be in office. And it sounds like they're trying to take that away. Yeah, that's exactly right. I do think it's important for us to say a few words about whether or not a Christian could support President Trump. That probably should be an entire broadcast in itself. But there's a lot of debate out there. A lot of Christians say, well, there's no way that a Christian could vote for President Trump. There's no way that we could support him. And obviously, they talk about the fact that he's an immoral guy, and not only the accusations that have been leveled against him. By the way, you can't receive an accusation unless there's real proof or evidence. But he's certainly done enough and said enough that we all know he's not a moral guy. I don't know what God's doing in his heart today, but certainly if you've got a Christian individual, a born-again believer who knows something about a biblical philosophy of government, a biblical political philosophy, you'd vote for him before you'd vote for Donald Trump. But I have no problem in saying that I support Donald Trump, and it's not because I think he's got a political philosophy. It's not because he's a principled individual. It's not because I don't care about his morals or his character. I do, but I'm voting for president, not pastor. Those are two different things, and I think Christians really are confused on that. I'm not trying to be cliche. It's part of what we need to talk about in some of those broadcasts on what the Bible has to say about human government. But, um, I'm essentially supporting Donald Trump because he's like a bull in a China closet. You know what I mean? Yeah, he kind of goes against the status quo. That's right. But then again, that's not necessarily, you know, a reason for why you should vote for someone just because they go against the status quo. You have to have, as I know you do, you have to have a standard and, you know, a philosophy of what you mean by the by the bull in the China cabinet. Phrase, you know, yeah, you could have a really good Government Wow saying good government in the same sentence doesn't really sound right, but you know what I'm saying? You could have a moral leadership and then vote for the bull in the China cabinet But but I get what you're saying our our government right now the state that they're in is for the most part, unbiblical. And not that Donald Trump is going in there and, you know, making them be biblical. But the thing is, that's not what it's about. We don't legislate morality, as we've talked about before. But he is he is kind of rustling the leaves and making waves, I guess. to put it mildly. Well, no, you're absolutely right in all of that, and essentially the role of government, and again, not what we're talking about today, but on the way to it, the role of government in civil society, biblically speaking, and we'd have to lay this out with biblical principles, but essentially it's to protect our God-given rights. And anything beyond that, it's really not part of the purview of a Christian view of government. And so part of the issue, part of the problem is that government does so many things, and the only way that they can do those things, and they're not supposed to be doing them, And we're talking about welfare programs and education and things that a lot of folk expect from government. Well, again, these really aren't part of the purview of government. And the only way that they can accomplish these things is to tax people in order to do that. And of course, when you tax people, you're essentially taking their money. You're stealing. And so, again, gosh, it sounds like we are getting into a broadcast here on human government. The whole problem with human government is that it's out of bounds, it's out of its bounds, it's out of its boundaries. But the Democrats and the Republicans essentially, and again, I would never vote for a Democratic candidate, and it's rare, used to vote Republican, but it would be rare these days that I'd vote for even a Republican because they're so much alike, because they're all warmongers, they're all welfare promoting politicians. It might be corporate welfare, it might be individual welfare, it might be one party is willing to spend a little bit more than the other party, although we've seen George Bush spend money like water. We've seen President Trump spend money like water. So all I'm saying is, We're talking about Donald Trump. Why in the world would I want a bull in a china shop? It's because the establishment comprised of Democrats and Republicans, people behind the scenes, the deep state, which is real, it's because the establishment is slowly but surely, and more rapidly now, but slowly but surely taking away the liberties of the people of the United States. It's using the government to oppress more and more. It's pushing agendas that are not only ungodly, but it's pushing agendas that are destructive of liberty, of civil liberty. And anyway, you can't have a civil society unless You know, you're willing to protect the rights of everyone in that society. And what do we mean by protecting people's rights? I'm talking about God given rights, not made up rights. I'm saying the right to life, the right to liberty, the right to pursue prosperity and happiness on my own. I don't have the right to hinder anyone from doing that. Neither does anyone have the right to hinder me from doing that. So anyway, the reason I would vote for a Donald Trump. Is because he is not part of the establishment and the swamp does need to be drained and the establishment does need to be shaken up a little bit And I might disagree with him on a lot of details a lot of things he's doing. I certainly don't agree with tariffs You know imports and all that these trade wars But that's not my deal. That is down the list in terms of what we need in America right now. America's in trouble, and things can be turned around by God. They can be turned around by revival, and that's why it's so important for Christians to be out here preaching the gospel and sharing the gospel and bringing a biblical worldview to bear on everything, including politics and government. But until Christians are doing that, in large mass, and until and unless God intervenes, that's not happening. It's getting worse and worse. And so then you come to the other side of the equation, and that's that bull in the china shop. The Bible says in Ecclesiastes, there's a time to build up and there's a time to tear down, and I'm not advocating war or anything like that. I'm just advocating a tearing down of the political establishment. Burn it to the ground. That's what I say as a Christian. Yeah, for sure. And I think the point here is whether it's Trump or whether we're talking about Obama or whether we're talking about Hillary Clinton or whatever, there's right now with this impeachment issue, there's something larger at stake. Even then, you know, can you vote for Donald Trump? There's something larger at stake because we're talking about removing a sitting president, as you said, just because we don't like him. And I mean, I think even what Nancy Pelosi said when she was talking about this, when she gave an address, was even kind of more outrageous, and I think we should talk about that. Oh, sure. Absolutely. You're talking about when she was talking a couple of days ago at the Capitol? Yeah, she said that prayerful Democrats were following the Founders' firm reliance on divine providence, and they were going to move forward with impeaching Donald Trump. because they've been praying about it and because God has something to say about it. So now she's saying that basically they have the go ahead from God to move forward with impeaching the president. And that's not true. She just made that up to sound convincing. Well, that's right. She's pandering. She's pandering to those who would invoke God. And she certainly, even though she hates the deplorables, as Hillary Clinton would call us, the Christians and the flyover folks and all the rest, Republicans in general, Trump supporters and others, non-Trump supporters, as long as we're not a Hillary supporter, we're deplorable. But there's a sense in which she's pandering to the constitutional folks, she's pandering to the religious folks, she's pandering to—there are still some, well, let's put it this way, less than extreme progressive folk in the Democratic Party. They're few and far between, that's for sure. But the hypocrisy of her statement is breathtaking. I mean, you know, prayerful Democrats, this is what you pointed out, they're praying. Well, who's Nancy Pelosi praying to? Because there's no way that she knows the true and living God. And some of them say, well, how do you know that? You don't judge her heart. No, I don't judge her heart. I can hear what she says and I can see what she's doing. When you're trying to remove a duly elected president, that's only one item, but we could give a long list of usurpations to borrow a phrase if you know where that came from. I don't want to steal all the talking points here, Christy. Just jump in because I'll keep going. Hey, you know, by the way, I'm not angry about this, but I am zealous for truth. I'm zealous for truth. And that's part of what we talked about on a previous broadcast, anger versus zeal and that kind of thing, just as a side issue. Sure. And what I'm getting at is how do you pray about moving forward with impeaching a president who hasn't done anything that's worth impeaching? Yeah, no, you're absolutely right. I mean, and I think I made this point a moment ago. I can't remember because I was just really on a roll, but it wouldn't matter to me whether it's Barack Obama or Donald Trump. If Barack Obama hasn't done anything worthy of impeachment, We, we, and the Republicans were trying to literally bring articles of impeachment. What we would be witnessing is a coup d'etat, and I would not be in favor of it, even though I would never, ever want Barack Obama to be president of the United States. You know what I'm saying? Right. Well, yeah, because he did. He certainly did a lot of damage. And but it's not. But the thing is, it's not about who you want to be president. The people voted for Obama. And as a nation, we have these protective things in place to keep people from exercising their their, I don't know, opinions. We have we have these these checks and balances, you know, to make it to where you can't just say, oh, I don't like what he did, so I'm going to impeach him, you know? Yeah. Yeah. And talking about Trump, I mean, I know he's not a moral guy. He's a bad guy. But I don't even know what they're saying he did to impeach him. Like I said, I don't really follow it that much because it either just makes me upset or I just don't have time for it or something. Yeah. Well, you know, we're not going to take a lot of time to get into those details because that's not the purpose of our podcast. Obviously, He's on a phone call with a world leader, Ukraine, and all the rest, and they're saying he was trying to use his office and get political favors to ruin a political opponent, namely Joe Biden. None of that's true. It's a legitimate conversation, but we're not going to get into all of that. But I'm going to throw something on the table. We had a very well-known evangelical pastor, theologian leader, one among others who three or four years ago said that they would be voting for Hillary Clinton instead of Donald Trump. And the reason was because Donald Trump is not a moral guy. And I just want to say, well, wait a minute. Is Hillary Clinton a moral woman? Well, obviously not. And when you vote for Hillary Clinton, you're voting for abortion. You really are. You're voting for killing babies. And I know that sounds inflammatory, but I think it's time that, you know, there's a time for reasoned language, and then there's a time for strong language. And you see both instances in the scriptures. And so I don't see how a Christian could vote for Hillary Clinton. I'm not saying if you voted for Hillary Clinton, you're not a Christian. I'm saying I don't see how a Christian in good conscience could vote for Hillary Clinton. Now, having said that, here's what I really wanted to get to because we were talking about Nancy Pelosi and knowing God. How do we know God and how do we know what God would think? Well, because we have the revelation of God in the scriptures, not something that Nancy Pelosi is familiar with based on the many times that I've heard her speak and misquote and all of that, along with a lot of other folk in politics, including Donald Trump. But anyway, I think when you look at where the country's headed with the hegemony of the establishment, with the deep state, and with the neoconservative stance these days, the warmongering, the interventionism, and the progressivism, and foisting certain values that are immoral on the rest of the country. There's a legislation of morality by either side, and that's not something that we're in favor of regardless, even if we were in charge, as you pointed out a moment ago. But if you think about the direction the country's going, I think there's a very real sense in which Donald Trump, if only a small one, if only a brief one, if only a temporary one, I think there's a sense in which, and I know this is going to blow people away, there's a sense in which he was a gift from God to this country. not because he's a great president, but because he's like a wrench that's thrown into the works, and it's a slowdown. Some people are being awakened, and most are not. They're just awakened to things they don't like. But we're having conversations like this, and others are having conversations like this, and I think we need to take some of these things I do think that you see, obviously if you understand Romans 1, the judgment of God is on America, right? We're being given over to our sin. I mean, that's really an individual thing, but God does judge nations, and that's a whole different subject and theology of which nations does He judge and when, and how do you know that? But just the moral decline in America, obviously God has removed his hand in some sense, and part of that is the weakness of the church, and part of that is just the immorality of people like even President Trump, but certainly people like Hillary Clinton and Nancy Pelosi. I mean, you have to know why You know, you're saying what you're saying. You can't be inconsistent. You know, here's I don't want to mention his name, but here's an evangelical leader saying, vote for Hillary Clinton. I can in good conscience vote for Trump. Well, Hillary Clinton is is is part of what's wrong with the country. He said, well, isn't Donald Trump? Well, in a sense, but politically, he's actually gumming up the works. And that's what we need right now. It's short of a divine intervention, if that makes sense. Yeah, and bringing in Romans 1, that's interesting because it points to our true need for the gospel, and it points to our true need for reform. Yeah, sure, we need a political reform, but we need a revival, as you mentioned. We need people to be awakened to their spiritual depravity. And I don't know, maybe the state of where America is right now will cause people to think a little bit more about their spiritual depravity and say, wait a minute, what kind of mess are we in right now? Maybe God could use it in that way too. Well, sure, because ultimately it's not really about America, as you and I both know. It's not really about whether America looks like we want it to. It's about the salvation of souls. But then beyond that, when people are saved and when the Christian worldview is brought to bear, Part of loving God and loving others is not only wanting persons to be saved, but it's wanting them to be, oh shoot, I was going to say blessed, but that's such a loaded word in certain Christian circles. the welfare of others, the good of others. Christians were at the forefront of building hospitals, for example. And if you have a free society and a society where people can have economic prosperity and they can have things like hospitals, that's a good thing. Those are things that we should promote. And when you're promoting something that's tearing those things down, Well, all that's going to happen is a lot of suffering, a lot of misery. And you see it in countries that have adopted socialism and you see it in countries that are, you know, impoverished because of a faulty worldview. And on we could go. And so, yeah, our concern is not just, hey, I don't like Nancy Pelosi. I like Donald Trump. That's not the issue. The issue is not, hey, I like straight people and I don't like homosexual people. That's not the issue. We're all sinners, we're all in need of grace, we all need to be awakened spiritually so that we can have eternal life and so that we can have a better life here and now while we're here trying to reach others for Christ. I think that's part of what you're saying. Yeah, it's about the gospel, and it's about the implications of the gospel. And that's why what we're talking about with what Nancy Pelosi said regarding bringing in the articles of impeachment on Donald Trump is important. I'll share another thing that she said. She said, And I mean, honestly, confidence and humility, that doesn't really sound like confidence and humility. It kind of sounds like arrogance. And she says, with allegiance to our founders, that doesn't make sense, because as we mentioned, she's trying to She's trying to impeach a sitting president when she doesn't really have the right to that's not allegiance to our founders That's the opposite of allegiance. Whatever what? Yeah No, you're absolutely right full of love for america. I mean again, we've talked about it It does I don't does she really love america? I mean she doesn't love what america stands for which is liberty and and freedom and and the ability of us as the people to exercise our votes and that kind of thing. And let me share one more thing that she said. She said, in signing the Declaration of Independence, our founders invoked a firm reliance on divine providence. Democrats too are prayerful and we will proceed in a manner worthy of our oath of office to support and defend the Constitution of the United States from all enemies, foreign and domestic. So help us God. Oh my goodness. I mean, you probably have more to say about this than I do, but it just sounds all convoluted to me because we do need to be thinking about this. We need to think at a worldview level. Christians need to be thinking about What does prayer really mean? Does she really understand prayer? I mean, we, as you mentioned, we get our knowledge of God from the Scriptures, from His revelation of Himself through the Scriptures. We pray, I mean, as Christians, we commit ourselves to spiritual disciplines daily, you know, and hourly we pray all the time, minute by minute, you know, pray without ceasing. And we need to think about this in our culture and show people what it really does look like to be prayerful. I mean, the word being prayerful just gets thrown around a lot, I think, as a way to say, oh yeah, I'm serious about this. But we need to stand up for what being prayerful actually means. It doesn't just mean you know, thinking about prayer sometimes and and saying, oh, yeah, I'm going to pray to this this God that I don't even know who he is. That's that's not what it is. Yeah. But anyways, I'll I'll let you talk about it more because I'm sure you have more to say. Well, you know, not necessarily. But, you know, I would add that, you know, invoking divine providence, that's something that we invoke all the time. But I'm I'm not normally normally I don't hear, you know, politicians do that, except when it's convenient. It's again, it's pandering. It's electioneering. It's all the rest, and it should be dismissed for what it is, total hypocrisy. And that's why I'm not as interested in politics as I once was, because you can't trust them, you can't trust the media. It really is a bunch of fake news, and there's these false flags, and we're just being duped as a populace. But I do think it's interesting, this little Interesting's not even the word, Christy, but that phrase where she says, you know, we're going to defend the Constitution of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic, so help us God. you know, calling God, you know, to help her do this. Again, hypocrisy, but but defending it from all enemies, foreign and domestic. She's calling President Trump an enemy of the Constitution. She is literally calling the president of the United States an enemy of the United States. I mean, it sounds like she's, I don't know, calling for civil war almost. Well, you know, I think there's a very real sense in which there's a Civil War brewing. I don't know that it will ever end up with gunfire like it did back in 1861 or so, and probably because we're all fearful of that. But we do have a divided country, and a lot of progressive states are now calling for secession, which is a whole other broadcast. But there is a civil war in the sense that we are a divided country, and only God can bring us together, Christy. It's outrageous to—you know, I'm no fan of human government, but I'm no fan of calling a president an enemy of the Constitution when Essentially, she just doesn't like him, as you said a moment ago, and she would be calling me and you enemies of America as well, and we're certainly not. I mean, our allegiance ultimately is not to America, it's to the Lord Jesus Christ, but that's not where she's coming from. She's just saying we disagree with her, therefore we're enemies, and that's totally outrageous. I actually started to go down the road we'd need to go down to wrap this up, but I forgot what I was saying, but it had something to do with, ultimately, we're here to glorify God, so I guess we can just say that. Yeah, sure. We're here to glorify God. It sounds like, well, on this podcast, we like to give answers. You know talk things through but sometimes we just like to get people to think and I don't think we came up with any solutions today But cuz that's not what we're here for. We're just here to get you to think and to think deeply about politics to think about what Nancy Pelosi is actually saying to think about what Donald Trump is actually doing to not just believe The media, whether conservative or liberal, they are both pushing their agendas to get you to have your authority be the scriptures and to think about things like prayer and like calling on divine providence when you're actually not a believer. What does that mean? So I guess that's all we're saying and we'll talk about something else next time on True World View. You've been listening to True World View, an analysis of news, culture, and theological trends from a biblical perspective. To access archived broadcasts, go to trueworldview.net, where you'll find other helpful resources as well. Thanks for listening and join us next time on True World View.