Hello everyone, welcome to another edition of the Bunyan of Brooklyn podcast. I am your host Tony Miona. Thank you for joining me. It's been a little while since we've done an episode of the Bunyan of Brooklyn podcast. If you might be new with us, you might be thinking, what kind of name is that for a podcast? The Bunyan of Brooklyn is, or was rather, the nickname for a pastor by the name of Ichabod Spencer. Ichabod Spencer, he was a pastor in Brooklyn, New York in the 1850s. Prior to that, he stood in the pulpit and pastored the church, formerly pastored by none other than Jonathan Edwards. Some consider him to be the Spurgeon. of the United States, and he was a man, in addition to having a very prominent pastoral ministry there in Brooklyn, was also quite the evangelist and the apologist. He was doing presuppositional apologetics before it was cool. Well, Pastor Spencer, Ichabod Spencer, the Bunyan of Brooklyn, He maintained a practice every night, almost every night, where after a day's ministry, he would go home and he would write out almost verbatim. He had a photographic memory. And he would write out almost verbatim the conversations he had with people during the day. It was a very important aspect of his ministry. Visitation, as it was often referred. And he would contact people, go to their homes, both saved and unsaved, to talk to them about their spiritual condition, to provide pastoral counsel. And he chronicled the stories of those people he talked to. And it was made into a book. actually two volumes originally, now you can get it in one volume, and it is called A Pastor's Sketches, Conversations with Anxious Souls Concerning the Way of Salvation. I have that book here, a wonderful one-volume edition. I have a much older one-volume edition on my shelf. This has proven to be one of the most important books in my life. It has greatly impacted the way I engage people in conversation on the streets and it even It even inspired me to write a book similar to this. I would not hold it up at the same time with this book, but reading this book inspired me to write a similar book called Cross Encounters, a Decade of Gospel Conversations. and I pattern much of that book after a pastor's sketches because this book has been so influential in my life. So, the Bunyan of Brooklyn podcast is, well, named after the Bunyan of Brooklyn, Ichabod Spencer. And what we do on this podcast is pretty simple. I read the book. I'll read one, two, three, four of the sketches or conversations that are contained in the book. Hundreds are contained in the book. And I read those and along the way I will make comment on them regarding things that Pastor Spencer says or the person he's talking to says and what that causes me to think about evangelism or apologetics or theology in general. and I've really enjoyed doing this. As I said, it's been a little while. A lot's going on here in the Miano household since our last podcast. A lot of ministry going on. I've got some writing projects in the works. I've been working on some things for my pastors as well, ministry happening out on the streets, even starting a new small business to do a little tent making. I'm hand-tying fishing jigs. If you're a fisherman, you know what I'm talking about. If you're not a fisherman, you are scratching your head, and I love you both. So, all right, so in this edition of the Bunyan of Brooklyn podcast, and of course we do this on YouTube, I also place the audio for the podcast on the sermon audio page for my church, Grace Fellowship Church in Davenport, Iowa. In fact, this particular broadcast, this episode, is inspired by my pastor, Pastor Mike Reed of Grace Fellowship Church. And how did he do that? Well, he texted me the other day, and he wrote two words in the text, Pastor's Sketches, followed by a couple of question marks. Now, I wasn't sure exactly what that meant. Of course, I immediately knew what Pastor's Sketches meant, but I wasn't sure of the context. Was he asking for one of my copies of the book? Did he want to talk about Pastor's Sketches? And so, I typed back a couple of question marks. And then he came back by telling me, hey, I missed the podcast. I really enjoy it and I'm wondering when you're going to do another. So that was all the inspiration I needed to put together today's episode. Now, if my voice sounds a little froggy, a little rough, I am battling a man cold. And we all know that is the most debilitating disease that God has ever inflicted on human beings. It is the man-cold. Women do not understand the man-cold. But we power through it. We suffer through it. Sometimes we even suffer well. So if my voice sounds a little rough today, It is because of the man-cold that has invaded my body. All right. We're going to look at three sketches today, three stories today. They're all very short. They're only a couple of pages each. In fact, my commentary might prove to be longer than the stories themselves. We'll see. I will try to maintain self-control. But those three stories are ignorance of self, superficial conviction, and excitement. Those are the titles of the three stories. Alright, let's get started. Ignorance of Self In the time of revival of religion, a clergyman, not much known to me, called upon me, and by invitation preached for me at my regular weekly lecture in the evening. I had mentioned to him the existing seriousness among the people. His sermon did not suit me. He made careless statements, seemed to me to rely on impressions more than on truth, seemed to value his own powers and to desire other people to rely on theirs. I perceived that he highly esteemed himself as a quote-unquote revival preacher, and I thought he preached quote-unquote revival and prayed revival rather than religion. After we had gone home and my clerical friend had retired for the night, one of my most intimate and confidential friends came in to see me and inquired how I liked the sermon. I criticized it with some freedom. My friend then told me that as she left the church, she fell in company with one of our young ladies who had been serious for some weeks and who said to her, Oh, that sermon will do me good. It was just what I wanted. I wish our minister would preach so. I felt humbled and sad. And as my clerical friend was much older than myself, I thought it became me to consider more carefully what he had preached, and what I had been saying. But I noticed that, from that time, the serious impressions of this young lady, who thought the sermon would do her good, began evidently to diminish. I saw her often, and aimed to bring back the depth and solemnity of her former seriousness. It was all in vain. She grew more and more indifferent till finally she went back to the world entirely. There she remains. Years have rolled on, but she remains a stranger to Christ. Convicted sinners are very poor judges of what will do them good. The very things which they think they need are often the very things which are snares to their souls. How is it possible for the natural man who discerneth not the things of the Spirit of God to tell what will do them good? He has no sincere liking for God or the truth of God. And if likings are to be consulted, the truth must often be sacrificed. It is better to trouble his conscience than to please his heart. A convicted sinner is the last person in the world to judge justly in regard to the kind of instruction he needs. He will seize error more readily than truth, and if his tastes are consulted, his soul will be endangered. In consulting such tastes lies the cunning art of deceivers, who lead crowds to admire them. and run after them and talk of them while they care not for the truth, deceiving and being deceived. As I mentioned, these were all going to be short stories today. What stood out to me, and you could probably hear the emphasis in my voice as I read, but this last extended paragraph really stood out to me. I highlighted, I marked a particular couple of sentences when Spencer writes, it is better to trouble his conscience than to please his heart. A convicted sinner is the last person in the world to judge justly in regard to the kind of instruction he needs. And American evangelicalism over the last 50 years has done the exact opposite. Instead of giving instruction that people need, they tell people what they want to hear. Instead of calling people to repent of sin, instead of bringing about conviction of the conscience, churches around the world, around the United States, certainly throughout American evangelicalism, are looking more to please the heart. than to convict the heart, than to convict the conscience. And so what do churches do? They will talk about things people want to talk about. Ten ways to make their marriage better, five ways to get ahead at work, four ways to not lose your friends, three ways to lose weight, and so on and so forth. And while trying to improve the outer shell of the people in the seats, their inner souls just continue to waste away. This is, in my estimation, the great sin of American evangelicalism. Again, over the last 50 years, the great sin has been to overwhelmingly focus on entertaining people and pleasing hearts. We have men, as far as I know, yet unrepentant men, like Bill Hybels and Rick Warren, men seen as forefathers of nefarious movements like the seeker-sensitive and seeker-driven movements that captivated hearts and minds through the 80s and 90s and beyond. There are still churches calling themselves seeker-sensitive, still churches calling themselves purpose-driven or seeker-driven. where the Word of God is not the centerpiece, the truth of God is not the centerpiece, the audience is the centerpiece. Many years ago, as I was engaged in some training to begin church planting, I pastored a church plant for a couple of years back at the turn of the century. My pastor at the time was a big fan of people like Rick Warren and Bill Hybels, even though I was not. And he asked me to attend a leadership conference at Willow Creek, Bill Heibel's church in the suburbs of Chicago. And this is true. I told the pastor I would go so long as we could go to a Cubs game. I'm a baseball fan. I had every expectation that I was going to get nothing out of the conference. And if I was going to have to go, if I was going to have to spend that time away from family, I wanted to get something out of it and it might as well be a Cubs game. Well, I was living in Southern California at the time. And the Cubs were playing the Dodgers that weekend. They had just had a big fight in L.A. the last time the two teams met. And so I said, yeah, okay, I'll go since we're going to a Cubs game. Well, I was not shocked at all by what I experienced. There were some 5,000 or 6,000 people there for a quote-unquote leadership training. And I might have been the only person in the room with a Bible. I was told that, well, Sunday morning is for unbelievers. We try to attract unbelievers to introduce them to Jesus. We do all of our Bible study on Wednesday nights. So I said, well, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt. I'll go on Wednesday night. I didn't need my Bible then either. And so again, many churches, even today, sadly, are still focused on entertaining the masses, filling the seats, keeping the lights on, instead of bringing conviction to the conscience through the proclamation of the law and the gospel, hoping that people will come to repentance and faith in Jesus Christ. Too many churches today are just trying to make people feel better about themselves. And in doing so, they only make them more comfortable on their way to hell. Told you some of the commentary might be longer than the stories today. All right, our second story is superficial conviction. Superficial conviction. There was much opposition to religion, Spencer writes, at one time among a few young men in the place where I was settled. It was in a season of revival. Probably the gospel was then preached with more than ordinary plainness. The complaint was made that there was too much said about the justice of God, the terrors of the law, and the wickedness of the human heart. They said that I quote unquote exaggerated in respect to the danger of sinners and made God appear as a terrible and odious being which was quote no way to lead men to religion end quote. Just at this time I was informed that some young men were determined to attend the meeting in the evening with stones in their pockets, to stone me on the spot if I ventured to preach about depravity and sinners going to hell. This was an indication, I thought, that the doctrines of divine justice and human wickedness had alarmed them, and that these arrows ought to be made sharp in the heart of the king's enemies. Therefore I preached that evening on these two points, the wickedness of men and the anger of God against the wicked. There was no disturbance. Nobody stoned me. The opposers were present and were seated near together. In the first part of the sermon there was an occasional whisper among them, but they soon became attentive, and our meeting was one of stillness and deep solemnity. I want to pause there for just a second. Excuse me. The communication of truth should never be determined by the response of the hearers. Spencer did not fall prey to this. He was told, quite frankly, that, hey, you're preaching too much about the wrath of God, too much about the depravity of man and about sinners going to hell. And so he determined, well, That must be the stone that is hitting the dog in the pack. Maybe you've heard that saying. If you throw a rock into a pack of dogs, the one that gets hit is the one that yelped. And the fact that people were yelping about there being too much preaching about depravity and sinners going to hell, then that's what Spencer determined to preach about. He was told that there were threats made against him, that people were coming to disrupt the meeting, that someone might actually start hurling rocks at him. He was not dissuaded by any of that. In fact, it motivated him. Not because he was motivated by a desire to be in conflict with these people or to have a physical confrontation with these people. Spencer wasn't that kind of man, that kind of minister of the gospel. but he wasn't going to shy away from telling the truth. He wasn't going to allow the desires of the hearers to determine the truth that he was going to preach. The communication of truth should never be determined by the response or the possible response of the hearers, particularly when we're dealing with unbelievers. Unbelievers do not sit in judgment of God. Unbelievers do not sit in judgment of the Word of God. Unbelievers do not sit in judgment of the right preaching of the Word of God. They are not the judge. There is only one lawgiver and judge, only one who is able to save and destroy the Word of God, tells us, and it is God Almighty. A man of God should be a man of courage. and should not be dissuaded from preaching hard truths, whether he's standing in his pulpit to communicate those truths, or he's standing on a street corner heralding that gospel to whoever may be passing by, or if you are in a one-to-one conversation with an unbeliever around your dining room table or across work cubicles or over a cup of coffee, you cannot be dissuaded from telling people the truth because of your fear of how they might respond. You must care more for the soul of your friend than the friendship itself. And if you are dissuaded, if you are fearful of communicating truth to someone you know, someone you care about, someone you love because it might have a negative impact on that relationship, then my friend, it is likely that you love the friendship more than you love the soul of the friend. You must be willing to sacrifice the friendship because you love the friend so much to tell him or her the truth. Continuing on now with Spencer's story, Spencer writes, Immediately after the service, I attended an inquiry meeting to which I had publicly invited all unconverted sinners who were disposed prayerfully to study divine truth. Some of the young men met me at this meeting. Within a few months, some of them united with the Church. Among them, there was one who told me at the time of his examination for church membership that what had been reported of him was not true, that he, quote, had not carried stones in his pockets prepared to stone me, end quote. Said he, I know my heart was wicked enough to do almost anything, but it never was bad enough to do that, end quote. Spencer then writes, I noticed this expression. I noticed this expression. It is very, very important when we are engaging in gospel conversation with anyone. to, again, make use of the two ears God has given us, and maybe sometimes make less of the one mouth He has given us. We ought to be good listeners. The Bible tells us we ought to be quick to listen and slow to speak. It's easier said than done at times. I understand. It's certainly been true in my own life. I've been working on getting better at that over the years. But one of the powers of Ichabod Spencer's ability to communicate the gospel to lost sinners in one-to-one conversations is the fact that he had the ability to key in on certain things that people were saying. He was so actively engaged in listening that when someone said something that would spur in Spencer's heart or mind An idea or an understanding of what this person might actually believe about themselves or about God or about the Bible or about Christ He would remember that he would hold on to that and then he would Oftentimes come back to it always listen when you're engaged in evangelism always listen for keys and clues that might give you an understanding of what the person actually believes and which might be tucked behind what it is that they're saying. So again, this young man said, I know my heart was wicked enough to do almost anything, but it never was bad enough to do that. The key word there and what that young man said was, but. Sometimes on the streets we used to refer to it as, yeah but nation, yeah but. People would come up and say, hey, I really appreciate what you're doing, but Well, I understand what you're saying, but as I thought about what this young man said to Pastor Spencer, I was reminded of Jeremiah 17, 9 and 10, which read, The heart is more deceitful than all else, and is desperately sick. Who can know it? I, Yahweh, search the heart, and I test the inmost being, even to give to each man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his deeds. Now, it's said that total depravity is this. We are depraved, but not as depraved as we could be, and we're not as depraved as we could be because of the restraining hand of God. In other words, we are far more depraved than we know or care to admit. every person outside of Christ is capable of murdering four Idaho College students in their sleep or a baby in the womb. That a person doesn't do these things, doesn't point to his or her goodness, but God's restraint. But God's restraint. What Spencer was keying on when this man said this, when Spencer says, I noticed this expression, is that while the man was saying to Spencer that, look, I wasn't planning on stoning you with stones, I know I'm wicked, I know my heart's wicked, but I'm not that wicked. So anyone who says that to you in the midst of a conversation, look, hey, we're all sinners. I know I'm a sinner, but I'm not like that guy. I'm no Jeffrey Dahmer. I'm not like that guy who is accused of murdering four students in their sleep at Idaho University. I'm not that bad. Well, they're still holding on to their own perceived goodness. And the word of God says, there is no one who is good, no, not one. While it is true that most of us will never murder someone in their sleep. While it's true that most of us will not engage in these disgusting forms of sexual immorality that represent letters of this alphabet soup of depravity. While those things might be true, that does not therefore mean, or it does not therefore follow, that we are good or that we are better than someone who would engage in those things. Certainly, that can be said about the person who is outside of Christ, for whom Christ has not died, to take away the punishment of their sin, the penalty of their sin, or to the person who is not filled by the Holy Spirit who now empowers them to combat the power of sin in their lives. People are, in a sense, totally depraved, even though they may not act upon the level of depravity that is in their heart. It's important to remember. Spencer, again, said, I noticed this expression. It was an unusual thing to hear such a remark. Directly the opposite was common. I therefore examined this young man the more carefully. But he appeared so sensible of his natural depravity, so humble, so docile, and so determined to live a life of holiness, that he gained my confidence, and he was received into the church. I thought that he might be a true believer, and still his views of divine doctrine be erroneous. And I knew very well that many people regarded me as too strict on points of doctrine. And though I believed and had always acted on the principle that true experimental religion will always lead the subjects to a knowledge of the great essential doctrines of the Christian system, indeed, that to experience religion is just to experience these doctrines, I came to the conclusion that this principle would not adjudge him to be unfit to become a communicant. As long as he remained in the place, about two years, he lived apparently a Christian life. But after he removed to a neighboring city, away from his religious associates and under a new kind of influences, he soon began to neglect public worship, violate the Sabbath, and finally became a profane and intemperate man. I called to see him and conversed with him. He was entirely friendly to myself, but he appeared blinded and hardened. He said he did not think himself to be very wicked. Indeed, says he, I never did think my heart was so bad as some people tell of. I never did much hurt, and as to being so bad that I can't reform, I know that I can turn from sin when I please. Probably my exertions for him did no good. The last that I heard of him was that he grew worse and worse and would probably die a miserable and drunken man. I have often thought that a truly regenerate man cannot have any doubt of the entire depravity of the heart. If he does not see that, it is probable that he does not see his heart. And hence his repentance, his faith in Christ, and his reliance upon the Holy Spirit will probably, all of them, be only deceptions. My observation continues to confirm me more and more in the opinion that to experience religion is to experience the truth of the great doctrines of divine grace. So fascinating. So in this story, and I appreciate Spencer's honesty, he noticed what the man said, that I know my heart was wicked enough to do almost anything, but it never was bad enough to do that. So Spencer gives this young man the benefit of the doubt, even though he keyed on on what the man said. He, this man did sense his depravity, but he did not sense the extent of his depravity. And so Spencer giving this young man the benefit of the doubt, a man who would profess faith in Christ, welcomed him into the church. And after about two years time. This young man proved to be what he always was, a lost man, a false convert, an unbeliever, a man who thought he knew the depravity of his heart, thought he knew the wickedness of his heart, but would not admit to how wicked his heart truly was. So I'm gonna read this last paragraph again. It's very, very important. Spencer writes, I have often thought that a truly regenerate man cannot have any doubt of the entire depravity of the heart. If he does not see that, it is probable that he does not see his heart. And hence, his repentance, his faith in Christ, and his reliance upon the Holy Spirit will probably, all of them, be only deceptions. My observation continues to confirm me more and more in the opinion that to experience religion is to experience the truth of the great doctrines of divine grace. Again, one of those great doctrines of divine grace is the doctrine of total depravity. Our last story for this edition of the Banyaner Brooklyn podcast is simply titled, Excitement. While God was pouring out His Spirit upon the congregation to which I ministered, and upon many other places around us, two individuals belonging to my parish went to a neighboring town to attend a camp meeting. One of them was a young man of about twenty years of age, whose mother and sisters were members of the church. The other was a man of about twenty-six years, whose wife and wife's sister were also communicants with us. Both of these men returned from that meeting, professed converts, to Christ. They had gone to it, as they told me, without any serious impressions, impelled by mere curiosity. While there, they became very much affected, so much so that one or both of them fell to the ground, and remained prostrate for an hour, unable to stand. They earnestly besought the people to pray for them, and pray for themselves. Their feelings became entirely changed. Instead of grief and fear, they were filled with joy and delight. And in this joyful frame of mind, they returned home having been absent only two or three days. I soon visited them both and conversed with them freely. At my first interview, I had great confidence in their conversion. They seemed to me to be renewed men, so far as I could judge from their exercises of mind. They appeared humble, solemn, grateful, and happy. In future conversations with them, my mind was led to some distrust of the reality of their conversion. They did not seem to me to have an experimental knowledge of the truth, to such an extent as I believed a regenerated sinner would have. I could get no satisfactory answers when I asked, What made you fall? How did you feel? What were you thinking of? What made you afterward so happy? What makes you so happy now? What makes you think God has given you a new heart? What makes you think you will not return to the world and love it as well as ever? They had ready answers to all such questions, but they did not seem to me to be right answers. They appeared to have no clear and full ideas of the exceeding sinfulness of the heart, of remaining sin, or the danger of self-delusion, and yet these men were prayerful, thoughtful, serious, and happy. They studied their Bibles, forsook their old companions, and appeared to value and relish all the appointed means of grace. In this way of life they continued for months. I took pains to see and converse with them often. And though they did not appear to me to blend very happily in feeling with other young Christians, or to enjoy our religious services as if they were quite satisfied, yet my mind apologized for them on the ground of the peculiar way in which their religion commenced. And with the exception of their imperfect views and feelings about the great doctrines of religion, I saw nothing in either of them to make me think them unfit to connect with the Church. Some months after their professed conversion, I mentioned to them separately the subject of making a public profession of their faith. Each appeared to think this is duty, but each of them were rather reserved. I could not very definitely ascertain their feelings, though I aimed carefully and kindly and repeatedly to do so. One season of communion after another passed by, and neither of them united with the Church. Their particular friends, who had made such frequent mention of their conversion as if it were more worthy of mention than the conversion of scores of sinners around them, and who had so much rejoiced in their conversion, and had been so confident of its reality, began to be very silent about them. I found that their confidence in them was shaken. Within a year from the time when they professed to have turned to Christ, the younger man had become entirely careless of religion, and so far as I know continues so to this day. The other was a little more steadfast, but within three years he had become an intemperate man, and a shame and a torment to his family. And the last I heard of him, he was a drunkard. He had ceased to attend divine worship on the Sabbath. Family prayer was abandoned, his children were neglected, and his broken-hearted wife, with prayer for him still on her lips, but almost without hope that God would hear, was fast bending downward toward the grave, the only remaining spot of an earthly rest. Mere excitements of mind on the subject of religion, however powerful, unless they arise from the known truth of God, are never safe. Excitement, however sudden or great, is not to be feared or deprecated if it is originated simply by the truth and will be guided by the truth. all other excitements are pernicious. It is easy to produce them, but their consequences are sad. A true history of spurious revivals would be one of the most melancholy books ever written." Reading this story and the account of these young men who went to this camp meeting and were filled with excitement and thrown to the ground and couldn't get up for an hour, it reminded me of the many false revivals of the 20th century and early parts now of the 21st century. The Pensacola Outpouring, the Holy Laughter Revival, the Brownsville Revival, the Toronto Blessing. Maybe those are some names that you've heard. Pardon me. All of these false moves of the Spirit, all of these movements of an entirely different Spirit than the Holy Spirit, were so much based on excitement, and so much based on outrageous and outlandish, but what the people concocting these revivals would call miraculous, all kinds of strange happenings. I remember being part of a church, in the 1990s, and several members of the church, including some of the leaders of the church, went to a weekend quote-unquote revival meeting at a place called the Anaheim Vineyard, which was the Southern California hub for the nonsense going on in the Toronto Blessings. and they would all be back in time for church on Sunday morning. Now, at that time, I was one of the worship leaders of our church, but on this particular Sunday, it wasn't my turn to lead, and so I was seated with my family. And as we were engaged in worshiping the Lord through song, I could hear people chuckling. Chuckling. Now, look, in a church filled with people, particularly young people and little children, at times a child is going to say something or do something that might bring about a chuckle from someone in the church. So at first I just wrote it off as something like that. But the chuckling grew and more people began to laugh and before long there was a giggle going on throughout the church as we are trying or supposed to be worshiping the Lord in song. I remember grabbing Maria's hand a little tighter. I remember glancing at her with what my family would call cop eyes, you know, to communicate to her, hey, this isn't right, something's wrong. And then once we were done singing, the pastor got up into the pulpit and he announced that he wouldn't be preaching today. That instead, he was going to allow members of the church family who went to this conference down at the Anaheim Vineyard to share their testimonies. That was another red flag for me, that the Word of God was not going to be preached on Sunday so that people could talk about their experiences at a conference. And the people came up and talked about laughing uncontrollably and being thrown to the ground and not being able to get up for a long period of time, saying that they were slain in the Spirit. They talked about people barking like dogs and clucking like chickens and moving around like animals, and all of it, they claimed, was a move of the Holy Spirit, and they were excited. Oh, were they excited. And it wouldn't be long. Well, it would be some time. I had thought that, okay, this is just a momentary aberration here, this is going to go away, this isn't going to stay in our church, but efforts were made to bring that kind of nonsense to our church, and before too long, we had to leave. And I look back, and I think of some of the people who were involved in this false revival down at the Anaheim Vineyard, and I think of one dear lady in particular, who would go and people in our church would drive the 50, 60, 70 miles multiple times a week during that time to go get filled with the Spirit. And they would come back and they would be spiritually high as a kite for a few days. Then in a few days, it would wear off and they would need to go back down and basically get a fix. It was not unlike spiritual heroin. And it was tragic. And movements like that only hurt people. They only hurt people. And the gospel is not the centerpiece of those movements. The gospel is not the centerpiece of revivals like that. It's come and get some of this stuff from the Holy Spirit. And one of the indications that these movements are not of God is that the Holy Spirit is the centerpiece of these movements, not Jesus Christ. And the Holy Spirit in his divine and beautiful and perfect work never draws attention to himself, but points people to Christ. And he convicts of sin and righteousness and judgment and leads people into all truth. He doesn't make them quack like ducks and bark like dogs. So, okay. Something else that stood out to me at this point in the story is the importance of never declaring anyone saved based on a mere profession, based on a mere profession of faith. People who come to repentance and faith in Jesus Christ, those seeds that are tossed are going to fall on good soil, and over time it is going to grow. People grow at different rates. Some people shoot up really fast. They grow very quickly. And they're voracious feeders on the word of God. And they cling to every word preached. And they desire correction and discipleship and accountability. And they grow very, very quickly. And they are genuine followers of Jesus Christ. But there are others who seem to grow very, very quickly because those seeds do not fall on good soil. It fell on other kinds of soil that would cause them to sprout up quickly, but then the cares of the world, uh, or persecution or something else will cause, uh, will cause them to soon wither and die. And so, uh, we should be careful as we're communicating the gospel to people. And if a person makes a genuine profession of faith in Jesus Christ, we need to be careful not to declare them born again. We do not know. We do not know that person's heart the way God knows that person's heart. God ultimately knows if their conversion is true, and we can have relative confidence, we can have relative assurance and hope in someone else's salvation as we see them over time and live with them and talk to them and disciple them. And we certainly should be very, very careful about anyone's profession of faith when their testimony is filled with nothing but excitements, as Spencer would describe it. When their testimony is filled with stories of how I felt one way and now I feel this way, how I simply thought this way and now I think a different way, and they're just filled with excitement. And their excitement or their experiences are the centerpiece of their testimony and not Jesus Christ. So we have to be careful of that. All right. A little more here from Spencer in this story. Spencer writes, the great leading doctrines of Christianity are the truths which the Holy Spirit employs when he regenerates souls. If young converts are really ignorant on such points, not having experimentally learnt them, they are only converts to error and deception. It is not to be expected, perhaps, not to be desired, that young Christians should understand doctrines scholastically, or theologically, or metaphysically. But if they are Christians indeed, it is probable that their mind will be substantially right on such doctrines as human sinfulness, divine sovereignty, atonement, justification by faith in Jesus Christ, regeneration by the special power of the Holy Spirit, and the constant need of divine aid. God's children all have the same image and same superscription, the family mark. Heaven has but one mold. Beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, we are changed into the same image. A couple of final remarks here. New believers will have some soundness of theology at the point of salvation. As I often say, a person cannot be saved by a gospel they do not know. So while they may not be very articulate in the gospel, maybe they will not be able to point out various aspects of theology or doctrine within the gospel, a new believer is going to know the gospel. A new believer is going to know who saved them and how he saved him. They will learn more, though, as they grow. An indication of genuine repentance and faith in Christ, an indication of regeneration and sanctification, is that a person is going to grow in their knowledge of the Word of God. They're going to grow in their knowledge of theology and doctrine. Not only are they going to grow, they're going to have a new nature desire to grow. They will learn more as they grow. They will not maintain opposition once shown the truth. That's very important. If a person makes a profession of faith in Jesus Christ and they are still holding on to their own perceived goodness, then they will not let it go. And you open the Bible to them, and you take them to Romans 3, and you exposit Romans 3 for them, and you take them elsewhere in the Bible where it says that there is no one who is good, no, not one. That man is not good by nature, not at all. but yet they still resist, they still argue, they still hold on to their own perceived goodness, then it could very well be that the person in front of you who made a profession of faith in Christ is, in fact, a false convert. They haven't been born again. They are not truly regenerate. Now, if you were to ask me, well, Tony, how long is that? How long do you How long do you wrangle with a new believer over these doctrines before you throw up your hands and say, I don't think you're saved? I can't answer that. I think every situation is different. I think, again, as I harp on this so much, this is one of the great importances of the local church, and to assimilate new believers as quickly as possible into a local church. so that that new profession of faith and the discipleship that then follows can be engaged by multiple people within the church. First and foremost, the pastors, the men who are called, the men who will give an account for the souls that they shepherd, men who are called to shepherd people, to disciple people. We're all supposed to be engaged in discipleship as genuine followers of Jesus Christ. But the church is led by men who are particularly called and particularly equipped to engage in that kind of shepherding. And if you're trying to do this, if you're trying to disciple someone like this and you're doing it outside the protective confines of the local church, you're doing it on your own, you have no backup of pastors, you have no backup of other brothers and sisters in Christ who maybe have discipled you or have been discipled by you, then you are going into this woefully under-armed for the task. And so it's important to have the help and the assistance of your pastors. and other brothers and sisters in Christ within your local church. And together, collectively, the Bible has a remedy for this. It is church discipline. This is so important. Church discipline is not simply a courtroom trial that takes place over a short period of time. Church discipline is happening continually within the life of a healthy Bible-believing church. Because brothers and sisters are going to each other continually, regularly, saying, hey Tony, I see this in your life. Tony, I think you need to repent of this. Tony, have you considered this? Because we're involved in one another's lives, not only on Sunday morning or Wednesday night or Tuesday morning Bible study, but throughout the week. Because we're a family. We're part of God's greater family. in this one local church. And so we know each other, we live with each other, we care for each other, we encourage one another, we correct one another. So in a healthy church, church discipline is happening all the time. It's not a singular event that happens after a series of events. Church discipline is something that takes place all the time. But let's say you have someone like this, someone who's made a profession of faith in Jesus Christ. And as soon as they come to faith in Christ, their mind has been renewed, their heart, they've been given a new heart. They understand salvation by the grace of God alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. But maybe this person is saying, well, no, people are good. People are basically good. And I'm just giving one example because we've talked about total depravity today. I'm just giving one example. But let's say that's the issue. And the person insists, no, I'm good. I'm a good person. At some point you have to come to that person and call them to repent of that unbiblical thinking. And unbiblical thinking like that will impact what they actually believe about the gospel of Jesus Christ. It will. It's going, at some point, to evolve, if it already hasn't, into some kind of works righteousness religion. And so maybe, just maybe, you know, and not every example is necessarily a good one, just maybe after you go to this person and say, look, I've shown you in the Bible, very clearly, that you're not a good person. God didn't come, Jesus didn't come to save good people. He came to save sinners. He didn't come for people who had no need of a physician, but those whose hearts were desperately sick and wicked, whose heart, their own hearts they couldn't know rightly. I've shown you this in the word of God and you still reject it. And you bring another brother or sister into the conversation. Look, I'm witnessing this with my own eyes. You're saying that you're a good person. The Bible says that you're not. You need to repent. And then maybe you have to then come before the elders and then maybe the person actually has to be brought before the entire church. And so new believers will have some soundness of theology at the point of salvation. They will learn more as they grow and they will not maintain opposition once shown. the truth, once shown the truth. All right. Said a lot today. And again, as I expected, and as I warned you, what I had to say about the stories would probably be a little longer than the stories themselves. I hope you found the stories useful and encouraging. I hope the commentary likewise has been useful and encouraging. And if so, would you please leave a comment below if you're watching the YouTube version of the Bunyan of Brooklyn podcast. I'd love to interact with you, hear what you have to say, pray with you or for you if I can. I would encourage you to pick up a copy. of A Pastor's Sketches. You can find them just about anywhere. Certainly find them on Amazon. A Pastor's Sketches by Ichabod Spencer. You'll find them in either a one-volume or two-volume edition. I would encourage you to read this book on your own. And of course, join us anytime we get together here on the Bunyan of Brooklyn podcast to read these wonderful stories, conversations with anxious souls concerning the way of salvation. All right, that's all I have for you today. I want to thank you again for joining me for this edition of the Bunyan of Brooklyn podcast. And until next time, everyone, God bless.