God bless you, have a good day. I've got a question for you. Sure. Do you really think this is the best way to, like, convince people? My name's Tony, first of all. That's me, Tony, I'm Ty. Ty? Ty, yeah. Okay. Are you a believer, Ty? No, I'm not. Oh, okay, okay. I'd like to think that a person's, like, morals and values should come from, like, within. Oh, okay. And while some of the stories, I think, help people, you know, I think you should, uh... but discovering the meaning behind that, that gives you more to stand on. So, Ty, do I understand you correctly that it's up to the individual to determine what morals are? If murder wasn't illegal, I wouldn't kill people. If the Bible didn't say it's wrong to kill people, I wouldn't. Have you ever hated another human being? Oh, absolutely. According to God's standard, then you have murdered. Is standards higher? Well, it's unrealistic for you and me because you and me are not able to keep that standard. But do you think that moral conflict is something that people need in their lives? Well, everyone has moral conflict. Those who don't are simply... Or is it something where you can never be not right, but you can never be enough almost? You know? Well yeah, I think that is good because the reality is God's standard is perfection and none of us measure up. That's why we need a savior. In God's eyes, yes. He said, whoever has hated another person is a murderer. I mean, think about it. Murder begins with hatred in the heart, moves to the mind where the person formulates a plan, and then, for some, goes to the hand where he carries out the act. But the murder actually started in the heart. The Bible also says, do not commit adultery. That's one of the Ten Commandments. But Jesus said, you've heard it said of old, you shall not commit adultery. But I say to you, whoever looks at a woman to lust after her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. That's how high God's standard is. And so what we do, as sinful human beings, is we lower that standard. But don't you think you should set goals and meet them? You know? Yeah. How does that affect to, like, positivity? It's irrelevant... God said, you know, like, love thy neighbor. Yeah. You know, does that mean you just kind of put up with him? Or does that mean, you know, you look to the good... Well, you'll never be able to... Share what you've got with him. You'll never be able to love your neighbor perfectly, neither will I. See, if you and I could live in perfection, you think you can love your neighbor perfectly? Yeah, I love him. Okay, but you could love him perfectly. Yeah, I love him. Yeah, I could fight him, but I love him. But that's just an argument. Yeah, but Jesus said greater love is no one than this, and he who lays down his life for his friends. Well, in theory, yeah, but you're never going to sacrifice for your... I'll never be able to... Let me finish. Well, let me finish. Let me finish. I'm not saying you'll never sacrifice for your brothers. What I'm saying is, is you'll never be able to sacrifice to the level that God himself has. And his standard is perfection. And his perfect sacrifice was to send his son to earth. in the person of Jesus Christ, fully God and fully man and without sin, to live in perfect obedience to the laws of God and then sacrifice himself for sinners even though he knew no sin. You're never going to live that kind of love and perfection, neither will I. But yet that's God's standard. So why wouldn't we... We could try, and we ought to. Why wouldn't we live something where things have changed and you know, like, the fraternity has gay people in it, has black people in it, and I love them forever. Okay. Yeah, love your neighbor as yourself, sure. We shouldn't love people more or less based on their, based on the color of their skin or based on the sin they love. We shouldn't love people more or less based on those things. Right. But the point is, is, uh, Ty, right? Ty. The point is neither you nor I, as hard as we try and as noble as we may try to be to, to, do those things perfectly, we're never going to do those things perfectly. So how do you reconcile that? That difference between the perfection and where you are? Yeah, the reconciliation is in what God has done for people who fall short like you and me. Let me finish. The reconciliation happened at the cross. That's where justice and mercy kissed. God has promised to punish anyone who breaks His law. That's you and me and everyone else. All have sinned and fallen short of His glory. Yet at the same time, He promises to save some. He promises to save those He has also promised to destroy. So how is that reconciled? By God coming down in the form of human flesh, living the perfect life that is required, and then dying a perfect death on behalf of those who cannot die that death. That's how it's reconciled. It was reconciled at the cross. God the Father made Him, God the Son who knew no sin, to become sin on behalf of sinners, people like you and me, so that through Him we might receive the righteousness of God. See, it'll never be reconciled if you try in your own flesh. Where do you put the responsibility for the things you've done? Oh, it's squarely on us. The responsibility for the things that we've done is on us. Yeah, God's not going to judge you. God's not going to judge me for the things that I have done. God's not going to judge me for the things that you have done. I've already stated, I've already conceded, I cannot live a life of perfection. But I'm not reconciled to God by my perfection, I have not. I'm reconciled to God through the perfection of Christ and through my faith in Him. If God gives me what I deserve, Ty, I'm going to hell for all eternity. Because I can't think of one of his laws that I haven't broken. If that's the case, then what society is? I don't do what society dictates is the right thing. Because our society dictates it's okay to murder unborn children. I'm not going to do that. Our society dictates that sexual immorality is okay. I'm not going to be involved in that. I'm going to follow God's commands, albeit imperfectly, I'm going to follow God's commands not to earn his love, not to earn his forgiveness, but because I'm thankful for the love and forgiveness he has given to me through faith in Christ. It's interesting. Yeah. Well, it's just, you know, like it's a different perspective. Yeah. So your, one of your original statements was that it's up to the individual to determine what's right and wrong, what's good, evil, what's moral. Okay. If it is up to the individual to make that determination, can any other individual tell another individual that they're wrong? For instance, I'm going to assume, Ty, that you and I both agree that under every circumstance, it's wrong to rape and murder a small child and bury them in a shallow grave for the fun of it. Yeah. Right? I mean, you and I agree. Okay, but the graphic nature of the example is to take something so heinous that you and I are sure to agree on. True. Right? You and I agree that there's no circumstance where that is moral. Now, if it's up to the individual to make that determination, then the man who does that for the fun of it is simply following his own moral construct. We can't call him wrong. We can't say what he's done is evil because he's simply following his own morality. What he's decided for himself is right and wrong. And I would say that's the point at which a society needs to dictate. You need to live your own life by your own morals. So now we've gone from the individual, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but what I'm hearing is we now agree that it's not up to the individual to decide morality, that society should step in and codify a standard by which we all should follow. And since the individual doesn't determine that, then society would determine that? But a standard that applies to everyone, the society would determine that standard that applies to everyone? Is that what I'm... The minimum. The minimum. That's what I'm hearing you say. Okay. Good. I want to make sure I'm understanding you. Okay. So, Ty, what about this? There are societies in the Middle East that say it is not only okay, but proper to tie homosexuals' hands behind their back and throw them off roofs to their death. I don't think that's right. And I would say that that's not so much a society as that's a religious... The society has made the determination. No, I would agree with you there. You are correct that that society has deemed that that is morally sound. But it's not though, right? No, it's not. Right. I agree with you. It's not. But if it's up to the society, what gives another society to determine the morality for the society we disagree with? It's one thing to judge another person or a society or whichever have you. I think it's, however, a completely different thing to intervene or tell someone that they're going to hell, you know? And I think to use an argument, like, I love... Well, let's stay on point. Let's stay on point. Because I mean, a big point there was the homosexuality. Let's take another one. Let's take another one, okay? Our society, 160 years ago, 150 years ago, said that it was moral to enslave people because of the color of their skin. Was it moral? No, it wasn't. Right. But our society determined that. Yes, so it would be okay, but it would be wrong though on murder, but it would be hard when you live in a place with Sticks and stones and that is your standard I I don't think it's like... I don't think that's a decision that a society can make. A society should, but it's not a natural thing. People shouldn't suffer or shouldn't be hurt. That's not a part of it. It's something where you should be about it. I think it goes back to what I believe about people. If you decide tomorrow that you have a great friend and you love him, and he's like a brother to you, and you find out that he sleeps with men and that he loves another man, would you say you hate him? No, I would never hate him. No. Because my worldview doesn't allow for that. Well, let me finish. My worldview, as a follower of Jesus Christ, does not allow me to hate a homosexual because of their sin. But in a worldview based on an individual's right to determine right and wrong, or a society's right to determine right and wrong, that would allow for hatred of the homosexual. And that's the point at which a society needs to be created. But who has the right to impose that upon that society? It's the people. And to an extent, it's a price you pay for having morals that are different. I don't agree with your stance on homosexuality. That's just a fact that we don't see. But in our society, if I was running things, things would be very different. And if you were, things would be different. We don't know we're making assumptions. We're making assumptions, right? You're you're assuming about me Yeah, maybe maybe I don't know But you know The point I'm trying to get to though tie is what ultimately is a source of morality It's not you and me as individuals and it's not society God has written his law on our hearts and You and I both know it's wrong to lie and steal and be engaged in any form of sexual immorality, regardless of what kind it is. I can't agree with that. Well, it doesn't matter whether you agree. What matters is whether or not... In the end, it doesn't matter what we believe. What matters is whether or not what we believe is true. I can believe you're holding a Porsche Turbo Carrera in your hand. I can believe that with all my heart. But it's never gonna... No, stop it. Show me. Well, it's not. It's a skateboard. Okay, it's a longboard. It's not a sports car. It's a longboard. It doesn't matter what I believe about your longboard. It's a longboard. The reality of what it is doesn't change because of what I believe in. It is. I would agree with that. The search for the truth isn't about belief, and it's not about something where you can just write it down. Things change. So wouldn't you agree if we went back 50 years ago, you could say this is kind of a shitty, you know, and we were standing here compared to where we are now. You could say this is kind of a shitty town, you know, like there's not much here. I mean, it certainly wouldn't be what it was today. But you couldn't write down, Iowa City's a terrible place to be, why would anyone want to be there, right? Well, that argument doesn't necessarily follow. And the fact that brick and mortar change doesn't mean that morality changes. No, and I agree with that. But if you... that shall not hurt. What's your stance on capital punishment? You know, like... Well, capital punishment is a murder. Capital punishment is punishment. So what is murder? Murder is the premeditating of a human life with malice before thought. That's not what the death penalty is. So if you kill someone because you love them, that's not murder? Well, God says you won't murder. So that's the standard. God's the standard. An individual's interpretation of God's standard isn't the standard. God's standard is the standard. He says you won't murder. But we've decided that murder is if you have malice in your heart, that is murder. Right. Premeditation and malice and forethought. Right. That is the definition of murder. So we can objectively look at something, and if someone killed another person for love, that wouldn't be murder. No, but that's just it. Murder is the opposite of love. For whatever reason. It doesn't matter. Love and murder are not compatible. So you think that it's just black or white? Well, it is. It is. And you know it is as well, because God's written his law in your heart. And that's what you have to do. Without God, you have to live in chains of grace. Your morality has to shift with the winds. Your morality has to shift with the times. It has to, because you're your moral standard. But your moral standard's arbitrary. You can change it whenever you want to. And that's kind of the point, too. What if all of a sudden, tomorrow, you realize that you didn't love your wife? Not that you didn't love her, but you were attracted to her. And I would need to repent of that sin and put my trust and faith in Christ. Because I would be violating the law of God, the same law he's written on your heart. And so in repenting you could do sexually immoral things? No, no, no, not at all. No, turning to Christ... No, it's a straw man. Turning to Christ, putting your faith and trust in Christ. is not a license to sin. Because if someone sees faith in Christ, oh, I've got my get out of hell free card, I can go live however I want, they've never come to genuine repentance and faith in Christ. They're living a lie. So it's a straw man to say, well, if you have Jesus, you can live however you want to. That's not true. That's not God's standard. That's hypocrisy. In fact, the Bible says, no hypocrite will enter into the kingdom of heaven. The fact that you know you can't, that you can just repent, does that, that doesn't have any effect on you? You don't think that has any effect on you? That any of the Christians do? What do you mean? I'm not sure I'm understanding what you're saying. Well, let's, you know, it sounds like repentance isn't a get out of jail free card. It's something that you earn and you pay for. No, it's not something you earn to pay for. Because God's forgiveness can't be earned. God's forgiveness can't be paid for. Not by you and me. By the grace of God alone, through faith alone in Christ. Yes. And I can only do that through the power of the Holy Spirit who indwells me. Left to my own devices, left to my own flesh, left to my own sinful flesh, I won't do anything. to please God. I won't have a desire to. But because God has caused me to be born again through faith in his son, I now have a desire to do the things that please him. But I remain imperfect because I'm still living in this fallen sinful world. And so I'm not made right with God, I'm not reconciled to God by my ability to do good as opposed to evil. I'm reconciled to God through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross and through faith in His finished work. It's not earned. It's not deserved. It's raised. And that's the difference between what the Word of God teaches and every other man-made religion. I mean, pick your religion. Catholicism, Mormonism, Judaism, Buddhism, Islam. They all say, you gotta be a good person, you gotta follow these rules, and maybe, just maybe, God will forgive you. The reality is, you are unachievable. We need His grace, we need His mercy, and He has extended that to mankind through the gift of His Son, Jesus Christ. A gift that most human beings, Ty, are going to reject because they would much rather live in shades of gray. Now, you said that you are imperfect. Yes, I am. And it seems to me so. You are imperfect, and so you stand on these higher morals. I stand upon the moral standard that God has written on both of our hearts. Every human being knows it's wrong to lie for the same reason. If that's the case, what right did God have to decide morals? What right did He have to decide morals? What right? He's God. He doesn't owe you an explanation. He doesn't owe me an explanation. You know, I just had a conversation with a young man named Ian. Nice young man like yourself. And a similar course of conversation came up. And what I asked him, and I'll ask you, when I was young, I used to love to build model planes. Okay, have you ever liked to build anything? Okay, great. Okay. All right, so you're going you're getting an education in order to build what electronics architectural what? Okay, all right, so you decide to build a robot Does the robot have any right whatsoever to say why did you make me like this? Oh I think it shouldn't. No, it doesn't. If I were to build a robot that could suffer, I think it should be able to ask why I've given it that. If I could build a robot that would want to commit suicide, why? If I could build a robot and tell it that if it wanted to do something for sexuality, really you could date men or you could date women. There's, you can't like date trees, you can't, you know, it's not like you've given this plethora of options and God said, you know, you can only do one thing, you know? But Ian, you're the builder. You have the right to determine everything for what you've built. You know, if I were to tell the robot, if you go on that side of the room, you will be damned to eternal suffering. We're talking about a robot. We're talking about an inanimate object right now. We're not talking about someone created in the image of God. Okay? The point of that metaphor, that analogy is, is that if I build a model airplane, if I build a P-51 Mustang, and I give it a grey and blue ocean camouflage instead of a green and brown desert camouflage, that model plane that I built has no right to say to me as the builder, why did you paint me this way? But, if you made the model, and you made it imperfect, and you put it in the world of suffering and sin, wouldn't it deserve? No, it doesn't deserve anything. The only thing you and I deserve is creation, as men created in the image of God. The only thing we deserve from God, because we've broken His law and sinned against Him, is hell. It's His wrath, that's all we deserve. That He, that He saved some, that He sent His Son, so that some might be reconciled to Him. Because of our sin, because of our sin against God. That's the point. I can't. I can't live a life of perfection. Jesus said you are to be perfect as your Heavenly Father is perfect. It's a standard that you and I cannot live up to. That's God's standard. If I grew up in a family where everybody stole bicycles and I learned how to steal bicycles and I got caught stealing bicycles and I'm standing before the judge and I say, Your Honor, I think you ought to let me go because I just don't think I'm capable. I just don't think I'm capable of living up to that standard of not stealing bicycles. Judge isn't gonna let me go. He's gonna punish me according to the law. He's not gonna let me go. No, not at all because you don't deserve one chance. You don't deserve any chances. Because you've sinned against him. I don't deserve any chances. No, by sitting against him, by breaking his law. Every time you've lied, every time you've stolen, every time you've taken God's name in vain, every time you've committed some form of sexual immorality, whatever it is, every time you've hated another human being, you've broken God's law. and the wages of sin is death. That's all God owes you. That's all God owes me. And what makes His grace and His love so amazing is that He extends it to anyone. Because no one deserves it. You and I don't deserve it. And even though he sent his son, even though he showed no greater love than to send his son to die on behalf of sinners like you and me, most human beings are going to continue to hate God and love their shades of gray. Because they love their sin. And they don't want to give it up. It's interesting. Have a good one. Yeah, you too. Good talking to you, Ty. Absolutely. Alright, have a great day.