Rumble in. Okay, that's recording. Well, let me open in a word of prayer and then we'll get started. Lord, we are so thankful that we have the freedom to come and worship and study and learn and grow as people of God. Lord, we thank you for the opportunity to think and talk about theology and study who you are and how you're at work in this world. And we pray that you would be at work even in our little Sunday school class here this morning, helping us to grow in our faith, grow in our assurance of who you are and what you've done for us and equipping us, Lord, through your spirit to take this good news to others. We pray this in Jesus' name. Amen. Well, I was not here the last two weeks. We were out of town. And then we were celebrating Shiloh's, trying to cram in Shiloh's birthday last Sunday, first thing in the morning before. So I missed the last two classes that Brendan was teaching. But I heard it was really good. It was a ton of material over two weeks. I was wondering if there was any key takeaways for those of you who are here. I just had one main question. This week, one of my friend's children, her significant other called for their daughter's hand in marriage, which is revolting. And I just wonder how, Brendan was saying, we need to handle things with kid gloves and so on. I think I would be very forthright and say we can't participate in a thing like that. It's not biblical, and so on. A lot of people treat it much more gently. What do you think is the best way to treat it? Does it depend, or does it depend on the persons involved? I mean, I'm black and white, and so I would have nothing to do with it. So like a gay marriage, wedding, I've been invited. Yeah, it's your own daughter. Yeah, it's your own daughter. Wow. And these people, the children have all Christian education. It just is painful. But the thing that they did in between was they invited this other person on their family vacations with them. And I thought, that was probably making things worse. But that was just my opinion. And I guess you'd have to take it on a person by person basis. But man, I couldn't bend, I don't think. Right. That's a really hard question. I don't know. We'll have Brendan come in and answer that next week. So for me, at least going to a wedding is not, um, I believe that if you're attending a wedding, you're not just watching something the way that you watch a movie. You are an active participant in that ceremony and standing, and in fact, that's why both Michael and I have people stand in the congregation because I feel like if you're an attendee at a wedding, you are a participant in that covenant ceremony and you're fully affirming and supporting and promising to support that union. So for me, for that reason, I would not be able to attend a gay wedding. If it were your own child? Well, that's where the emotional part, so the principle, now if it's your own child, it gets super hard. And I've talked with parents where, I mean, that really is very, very difficult. And I know that some have dealt with that by saying, I can't go to the ceremony, but we will participate in other parts, you know, like the reception or something to be there. And because in almost all cases, I mean, essentially, in every situation when it's come up, the child is already very aware that the parents are opposed to it, and disagree with it, and disapprove of it, and kind of condone it. And not coming to the ceremony just sort of affirms that. So being at the reception in no way displays support, although it is a celebration. But I think that there's also some space there for parents to, and it's a very difficult decision for a parent to make. But my principle would be to go to the ceremony because I believe you're not just watching something passively, you're actively participating in it. I couldn't do that. It seems like 80% of the time if somebody is in opposition to homosexuality or homosexual marriage, that it changes when it becomes a close family member or something, because their emotions do get involved. And I think for people to have the principle and to be rock solid on that, you gotta have that to go to in that time, because yeah, it'll be a horrible thing to deny your own child celebration. We have some people, friends, and that hasn't actually got to the point of a marriage yet, but their daughter's in a long-term relationship. And it's really hard, because this other girl is amazing. She's super wonderful. If she was a friend, this is fantastic. But they've also been really clear with their daughter. We can't. Like, I love you totally, but because of what we believe, I can't ever support or condone this. And they're just walking that really fine line of being present, available, loving, gracious as a parent, but also holding firm to their beliefs. But then it's all kinds of great tricky areas as far as Thanksgiving, Christmas, holidays, celebrations, vacations, dinner. I mean, that's where it gets very tricky. OK, thanks. Yeah. Yeah. It's challenging. Very, very challenging topic. Yes, indeed. Well, today we're going to move to something pretty easy then. How could a loving God send people to hell? I want to frame this up by reading a neat little book I got when I was a long time ago called Letters from a Skeptic. So this is Greg Boyd and his father, Edward Boyd. Greg's a Christian, he's a pastor at a church, and he wrote, his father was not a Christian, and so he engaged in a letter-writing process with his father to engage him in questions of Christianity, and then they published the results in a book. It's a really fascinating book. And one of the questions was this exact question, how could an all-loving God torture people in an eternal hell? So that's the question from his father, who's an atheist, to the son, who's the pastor. His father puts it this way. He said, you know, your last letter put my mind a bit more at ease about who is going to hell, but it didn't address the problem of hell itself. This is really the more fundamental question. The Bible paints a truly nightmarish portrait of this place, does it not? It's a place of fire, hot sulfur, brimstone, darkness, torment. And the thing supposedly goes on for all eternity? Now tell me, what on earth would be the purpose of torturing someone eternally? What's the point? Obviously there's no lesson to be learned. This isn't corrective punishment. The person in hell has no hope of ever improving his character or situation. So this is sheer vengeance, pure retribution, unadulterated anger with no more motive other than pure divine delight of inflicting horrifying pain on a person. Now, don't get me wrong, Greg. There are plenty of people whom I wouldn't mind seeing in hell for a time. But even I'd get tired of hearing Hitler scream after a couple of hundred years. Wouldn't the fun wear off? After that I'd probably figure he's paid his debt to his victims and then I'd just kill him. Why doesn't God just do that? After a few hundred years he'd already have made his point. So why go on with the pain? Why not just put the sinners out of their misery? Why torture just for the sake of torture and do so eternally? Related to this is another point. I don't see how heaven can go on as heaven while hell is burning down below. Wouldn't the knowledge that there are billions of people boiling in hot lava down below you throughout eternity kind of dampen the party spirit? It seems as if this would present a problem, especially for an all-loving God who is supposedly in love with all these poor tortured souls. That must eat God up alive. Think what you'd feel like if one of your kids didn't make it. So, it just doesn't make sense to me, Greg, and I'm just not at the point where I can just suspend judgment about this. The character of God is on trial, and this is very relevant evidence which needs to be considered. How would you respond to that? That's why we're talking about this this morning. And it's a really interesting overlap between, you know, we talked in the very first class, this whole class about knowing what you believe and why, and then being able to share it. This is one of those places where you need to really know what you believe and why in order to then be able to even begin to talk with other people. about it, and this is one of those questions that really should be on your mind. If you haven't thought about it before, you should. Because these are real questions that he has, and lots of people who are not Christians have. Hell is an awful, horrifying reality that should be upsetting to us, and we should be wrestling with what it means. It should give us pause. John Stott, so you've heard of John Stott, famous British pastor, wrote tons of books. So he said, I find the concept of eternal conscious torment intolerable and do not understand how people can live with it without cauterizing their feelings or cracking under the strain. So it's just phenomenal. sort of leader in Christian evangelical thought in England in the last century. And he's still just like, this is killing me. It's this emotional weight of this. This is not just dry doctrine or like philosophical thoughts. This is an eternal reality that we're discussing. And so in many ways, just like with the issue of the homosexuality, which required finesse and grace and delicacy because of the individuals involved, the same thing here. We have very firm doctrine, but we also, the way in which we talk about it is to present this to other people. We need to be careful. So for today's class, though, I want to approach this first and foremost because there's so much emotion involved. It's just you can hear it in that letter. I want to start with making sure that we know what we believe and why first, like establishing the doctrine, and then we'll get at the end of the class towards, okay, now how would I talk about this with somebody else? How would I address some of those concerns? Partly because we just don't talk very much about hell. anymore, and so, I mean, we're not preaching hell, fire, and brimstone every Sunday. We don't have a Sunday school class on hell, usually. So, we're gonna do that today. A little bit, anyway. We'll scratch the surface. So, what does the Bible say about hell? We'll talk about, I brought this book also for show and tell. I've got this book called Hell Under Fire. I'm sure the editors were like, oh, this is gonna be an awesome title for a book. Challenging. Anyway, it's a really good, helpful book. It's pretty much the only book I have on my shelf about health. Dozens of other books on every other topic, and the only one I could find on health. So, the Old Testament actually doesn't have a very well-developed vision for hell at all. I mean, essentially, in the Old Testament, you had three realms of existence. So you had heaven, or the heavenly, spiritual realm, God, angels, it's all up there. And then you have earth, where all living creatures are. And then you had Sheol, like the place of death, where everyone went. And so that's just a shadowy place underground where all people go when they die. So the Old Testament talks about people falling asleep. So it's just a metaphor for that process, that moment of death. It's like a falling asleep. And then when you wake up, though, you are in Sheol. Like, Sheol is not a place where you're asleep. but there is a sense in the Old Testament that you're awake or aware of what's going on down there. And that existence is not a bodily existence, it's a shadowy spirit-like existence. And everyone's together, but there are gradations within Sheol, the sort of mighty, Men and warriors and kings are in a different place than others, but it's not really a clear hierarchy in the way that maybe the Greeks had or even we begin to see with like heaven and hell. So essentially all dead people go to Sheol There are two passages that kind of stick out when we're talking about hell. So the first is in Isaiah 66. I don't want to bring this up. So this is at the very end of Isaiah. So all these incredible images of final restoration and so on. And then at the end, At the end of Isaiah, we read of the final judgment and glory of God. And so we read in verse 15, for behold, the Lord will come in fire and his chariots like the whirlwind to render his anger in fury and his rebuke with flames of fire. For by fire will the Lord enter into judgment and by his sword with all flesh and those slain by the Lord shall be many. It's this vision of God's return and all evil are gonna be wiped out in this furious, horrifying judgment of God. Right? And then he explains the sign that's going to be sent through them and the people will declare his glory among the nations. And then he says, and then he sends them out. And he says at the very end here, first, the new heavens and the new earth that I make shall remain before me. So shall your offspring and your name remain from new moon to new moon, from Sabbath to Sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before me. And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worms shall not die and their fire shall not be quenched. And they shall be in abhorrence to all flesh. So this is most likely a reference to the Valley of Gehenna, just outside Jerusalem, where there was this sort of garbage dump, where there was child sacrifice that took place. And he's saying people, and also really just the carnage of this war, this vision from verses 15 and 16. all the dead bodies that have piled up from God's final judgment, piled up there. And the maggots feeding off the dead bodies and this sort of burning fire that won't go out. Now for Isaiah, most likely, and for his readers, they would have been thinking, I think, mostly about just a literal Something not hell, because they didn't really have a framework for understanding that. That wasn't the context that they were living in. But clearly some kind of destruction and awful scene of carnage as a result of God's judgment. Although, we're going to see later, Jesus in the New Testament builds on this image to develop a more developed idea of hell. Then the other passage that's really interesting is Daniel. coming later, Daniel chapter 12. So Daniel chapter 12, at that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who is in charge of your people. There shall be a time of trouble such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time, your people shall be delivered. Everyone whose name shall be found written in the book. Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting contempt. Well, this vision here of a double resurrection, right? Some will be raised to eternal life and others to everlasting contempt, punishment. So again, we're not sure how clearly that would have been understood at the time, but even before we get the New Testament as indications among Jewish thought and writers, during that intertestamental period we talk about between the writing of the two testaments, that they're starting to envision a scene at the end of time when God will judge and bring about this double resurrection that we read about here. But then we get to the New Testament and we say, okay, so This vision that is often painted in the public and in media, you know, Jesus is just this loving, sweet, kind, great teacher. And so like, how could this loving God send people to hell? But then the reality is Jesus talks extensively about hell. And I'm just gonna read you a bunch of passages because when you hear, it's important to hear, these are the words, of Jesus. So the Sermon on the Mount, the most incredible teaching, and even non-Christians will look to the Sermon on the Mount, say, well, you know, Jesus was an amazing, profound teacher, and I like Jesus the teacher, but all the stuff about salvation, I don't like that. Jesus can't be the only way, but a great teacher. Well, okay, but in the Sermon on the Mount, we read, Matthew 5, 22, but I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment. Whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council, and whoever says, you fool, will be liable to the hell of fire. So that's not a light punishment, that's an extreme judgment. Then a little bit later in chapter 5, verse 29, if your right eye causes you to sin, I know you're familiar with this, tear it out, throw it away, for it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell. And if your right hand calls you to sin, cut it off and throw it away, for it's better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell. And then later, again, Sermon on the Mount, Matthew 7, 13. Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to, where? To destruction. And those who enter by it are many. Right? And then he goes on. a little bit later, and he talks about healthy tree bears good fruit, the diseased tree bears bad fruit. A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. So what's the result? Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. And he's not talking about farming here. You know, it's very clear what he's talking about. He's talking about people. Then He says a little bit further, you know, not everyone who says to me Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven He says on that day many will say to me Lord Lord Did we not prophesy in your name and cast out demons in your name and do mighty works? And then I will declare to them. I never knew you depart from me you workers of lawlessness Everyone who hears there's this idea of separation there right like they're apart they're set apart from Jesus and And then this image of the house, you know, if you build, the wise man builds a house upon the rock, and the foolish man builds a house upon the sand, and what's going to happen to that house? It will be destroyed. So again, this image of destruction. Or then in Matthew 10, when he goes to send out the 12 disciples, and he's encouraging them, And he says, have no fear of them for nothing. Don't worry about what other people are going to do to you. He says, you proclaim on the housetops. And he says, do not fear those who kill the body, but cannot kill the soul. Rather, fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell, meaning God. Like that's an He really like amps it up a notch there. Like we're so used to hearing that, but really he could have just said, hey, don't worry about those guys. Like I got it covered. And he's like, no, you should actually not be afraid of them. You should fear God because he can destroy completely in hell. It's incredible. He says, whoever denies me before men, I will also deny before my Father who is in heaven. Again, this idea of rejection, separation, being set apart, banishment. Matthew 13. He says, again, the Kingdom of Heaven. He's describing all these images and parables of the Kingdom of Heaven and what it's like. Well, here's what the Kingdom of Heaven is like. It's like a net that was thrown into the sea and gathered fish of every kind. And when it was full, men drew it ashore and sat down and sorted the good into containers. But did what? They threw away the bad. So it will be at the end of the age, the angels will come out and separate the evil from the righteous and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place, there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. So, not just a neutral separation, but a separation that will result in the wicked, the evil, being thrown into what's described as a fiery furnace, where there will be anguish and suffering, weeping, gnashing of teeth. And then Matthew 18, again, he repeats the same ideas from the Sermon on the Mount, right? It's better for you to enter life crippled or lame with two hands or two feet than to be thrown into the eternal fire. He says, if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire. It's just over and over again, and then you get to Matthew 25. Well, Matthew 24, he gives three different parables here about being ready for Jesus' return. We have the parable of the ten virgins who need to be ready for the return of their master. But if that wicked servant says to himself, my master is delayed and begins to beat his fellow servants and eats and drinks with drunkards, the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him, at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces and put him with the hypocrites in that place that will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." The 10 virgins, again, there will be separation. They will be removed, banished from the presence if they fail to be ready when Jesus returns. The parable of the talents. At the end, what Lily had is taken away and handed over to the others. And then continuing in Matthew 25, you have this vision of the final judgment. When the Son of Man comes in His glory and all the angels with Him, then He will sit in His glorious throne. Before Him will be gathered all the nations. He will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. Right? The separation. He will place the sheep on His right and the goats on the left. And he will say to those on his left, depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire, prepared for the devil and his angels. And then he says at the end here in verse 46, and these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life. Eternal punishment, eternal life, over and over again. It's shocking. In Mark, it's the same visions of being thrown into fire. Hell is clearly then worse than death, worse than earthly suffering, punishment for sin. And it's interesting, if you think about the place where he says it's better for you to gouge out an eye than to be than to go into hell with two eyes. There's this sense here in which we're responsible for our, it's our works that are going to result in this final judgment. If you think about the tree that's bearing fruit or not bearing fruit. And the actions, our sinful actions or not, is going to have some bearing on where we go. So it is God who is sending people, but we are also clearly responsible for our actions in determining our place. Our free choices come with eternal consequences, he seems to be saying. There's also, from all these images, you get a clear sense that hell is a place of eternal, ongoing, conscious punishment. Something that is ongoing, eternal. They'll be weeping and gnashing of teeth. They're aware of what's happening there. It's awful. Reading all these because it is heavy and we need to have a sense of that heaviness if we're going to engage sensibly on this topic. Paul speaks frequently about the wrath of God. He doesn't use that word hell very much, but he speaks extensively about the wrath of God, the judgment of God, and of course also because that frames his conversation for the gospel. If you don't understand that you stand guilty under the wrath of God, you can't understand the good news of freedom that we have in Christ and the blessing and the gift of the gospel. So, I mean, that's why Paul ministers and preaches and teaches with such energy and fire, and it's what drives him to walk thousands of miles and endure all kinds of persecution, because he's passionate about people hearing the gospel and being rescued from this judgment, being set free from the slavery to sin, from the gift that God has given to be able to avoid that final And then we read in 2 Thessalonians 1, he's trying to encourage the Thessalonians who are being persecuted and challenged by those around them. And then he says this in verse 5, He's talking about their suffering. for which you are also suffering, since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you." That final judgment, the punishment of hell, is an exercise of God's justice, His holiness, His righteousness. And then on the other hand, to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. So not arbitrary, sort of vindictive, cold-hearted, gleeful, sadistic, exercise of power over poor, innocent people, but clearly this vengeance is on those who do not know God and have rejected Him and have rejected His gospel. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away, apart, separated, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His might when He comes on that day to be glorified in His saints. punishment that is just and separation from God. And then, of course, we get to Revelation and we read extensively of God's final judgment and the the end that awaits all those who reject God. So in Revelation 14 verse 9, And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, He also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger. And he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest day or night. Again, is that for innocents, people accidentally sort of fell into hell? No, these are clearly, this punishment is for those who have rejected God and now receive the just result of that. And note also, it's a little thing, but in popular imagery and movies, everything, Satan is always pictured as being sort of in charge of hell, like this is his domain, he's the one inflicting torture on other people. Hell was created for the punishment of Satan and his demons. He's not in charge, he's not ruling the roost down there. God is in charge of all of creation and the punishment there that they're experiencing is in the presence of the Lamb of God. Satan is not in charge, even in hell. And then Revelation 20 verse 10, and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. And then Revelation 21, but as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death. So these images of darkness, death, suffering, fire, separation, banishment, punishment, destruction, kind of summarizing all those images as a theology professor, Christopher Morgan, and he says, kind of summarize all those into three categories. You have punishment, images of punishment, destruction, and banishment. And he said, you look at those three, you can see hell as punishment depicts God then as judge. Hela's destruction depicts God as the victorious warrior defeating all his enemies. And then Hela's banishment depicts God as king. So that's like very brief. And I skipped verses. I mean, there's more. but terrifying imagery. In the New Testament, Jesus himself talks extensively about hell, and not in very lovey-dovey terms. He doesn't pull any punches. These are very real, very visceral, very visual and sort of horrifying images of what awaits those who reject him. From the mouth of Jesus Christ himself, Now we talked a little bit about this, I don't know, when was the last time you guys thought about hell or kind of? I've been thinking about it this week with all those deaths over in the Holy Land. Oh, yeah. And even the religious Jews who are very well spoken and so on. That's where they're going. It's just frightening to me. It is. That they're gone. That's it. Holy. It's terrifying. It is. It really is. Yeah. I mean, there's so much evil in the world. We're getting ahead of ourselves a little bit, but we'll get to that at the end. I mentioned this a little bit ago, but there is this interesting interplay here between When we talk about hell, between God's sovereignty and our free will, our free choices, because God judges, as I said, God judges people according to their actions, what they've done, but then God is also clearly the one who is the judge, who is sending people to hell. So I read a lot on this topic of how could a loving God send people to hell, and a frequent answer that comes up is, well, God doesn't send people, people send themselves to hell. Which I under, there is some truth to that, because the Bible talks extensively about our own free will and our free choices in ending up in hell. So, the Bible is clear that we're judged on the basis of our works, right? Matthew 16, you know, son of man's gonna come with his angels and then he will repay each person according to what he has done. Galatians 6, I do not be deceived. God is not mocked for whatever one sows that will he reap. For the one who sows his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption. The one who sows the spirit will from the spirit reap eternal life. And Revelation 20, and the sea gave up the dead who were in it. Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them. And they were judged each one of them according to what they had done. So over and over again, we will be judged according to what we have done. But at the same time, it's like a nice way to avoid, to get around this question, to be able to say, well, we're just being, it's almost like, well, God's hands are tied. He doesn't really want people to go to hell, but they just get there because of what they've done. That is true, but we have to recognize that God is the Lord of both the dead and of the living. Jesus is the one appointed by God to be the judge of the living and the dead. Over and over again we read that, that God, Jesus, is the one who will judge the living and the dead, and the final judgment. Jesus is the one who has this authority. And in Revelation 20, well, this is really, I think, the most interesting passage that kind of links together this idea of how free choices and God's sovereignty is in Revelation 20, verse 11 through 15. So John says, then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence, earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life, and the dead were judged by what was written in the books according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. So twice in there, you'll be judged according to what you have done. But also we read of God's sovereignty, this idea of a book, there's this book of life. We don't write our own names in the book of life. God writes the names that are in the book of life. And if your name is not written in that book, then you will be thrown into the lake of fire. So this is this idea, Michael's gonna talk about this a little bit today, election and predestination. But God ultimately stands behind the fate of both the saved and the unsaved. Traditionally, the way it's been talked about in Reformed theology is that God punishes directly sinners who have rejected Him and rejected the Gospel. But he then allows or does not choose to step in and keep certain people from rejecting him and ending up, therefore, in hell. this very important interplay there between the fact that people send themselves to hell, no one's gonna accidentally get there, no innocent person is, there's not gonna be a mistake where God goes, ah, they weren't supposed to be there, like how did that happen? So what are, I don't know if you've heard of these, some solutions to deal with these questions have come up in Christian circles, universalism and annihilationism. Have you guys heard of these? Gavin has. So universalism, do you remember any of you like Rob Bell from a few years ago, 10 years ago now? Love wins, it was like this, this idea basically in the end, it's not a new idea. Rob Bell didn't come up with it. But this idea that if God is so loving, love is his ultimate quality. God is love. Therefore, love will triumph in the end over everything, even over sin and death and hell itself. So traditionally, the way this was worked out, and so this is a great way to avoid answering these questions, to say, well, it's not eternal. It's not gonna go on forever. And ultimately, it's all going to be subsumed under God's overwhelming love. And that's how we solve this problem. God is an all-loving God, they would say. And in the end, all people will be saved. And they look to verses in the Bible that say, all will be saved, and they extrapolate out from that. But if you dig in a little bit deeper, most of them will recognize, OK, there is a hell, because it's really hard to avoid final judgment and punishment. So they'll say, OK, fine. There is going to be a final judgment, and some will go to hell. but it's almost like a purgatory for non-Christians. So it says there'll be a place where they will be in hell until they convert and come to faith in Christ. And God's love will ultimately win over all of them. And then there'll be no one left in hell and hell will be erased. So it's really interesting. They wanna stress human freedom But ultimately, human freedom will be erased because all will be eventually compelled to believe in God under this system. It's the only way they can come to a universal victory for love over everything. So, I personally am not convinced, obviously, by that. And the only way they get to that position is by completely absolutizing God's love, which is, generally speaking, like, that'd be a first point of contention for a question like that. Well, how could an all-loving God send people to hell forever? Well, God is love, but He's not only love. God has all these other qualities that we've talked about before in systematic theology. I mean, first and foremost, he's also holy and he's also just. And even his love is not love in the way that we conceive of love as something emotional, purely emotional and sappy, but his love encompasses justice and holiness and mercy. And, and also, uh, therefore you think about God is love and, and how did God demonstrate his love to us, right? By sending his son, Jesus Christ to die on a cross for us. I mean, embedded in God's own definition of himself as love is a recognition that there are sin in this world that needs to be punished. and can only be punished by death. God's love is demonstrated in a recognition of sin that requires punishment and death. But then also, that same God shows his love by paying that penalty on our behalf. So to absolutize God as being only loving completely ignores his holiness, completely ignores his justice. It does away with any conception of sin or evil in the world, which I think is kind of ridiculous. The other way that people get around it is annihilationism. So annihilationism would say, well, it doesn't go on forever. That at some point, either right at the moment of death, so some would say, well, right at the moment of death, we just cease to exist. Or, more commonly, after a period of time in hell, then people are just vaporized. They just are no more. So, John Stott, actually, he eventually got to that place where he was mostly in this camp. You know, people being held for a period of time and then annihilated, vaporized, wiped out. And they get there by saying, well, these words, eternal, don't really mean eternal. Forever doesn't really mean forever. It means for like a period of time. To say it that way, it kind of minimizes their exegetical work. They're not stupid. They're not trying to say eternity doesn't mean eternity. They get into Greek backgrounds and say, well, the way in which it's used, it talks about the age to come. Anyway, I don't want to bore you with the complicated arguments there. And they also debate the idea of destruction. So they say when the Bible talks about destruction or burned up, then it's over. Like if you have a fire, it goes out when it's consumed all the wood. So they say the same thing happens in hell when your punishment will burn you up completely and then you'll be no more. But when you do a study on that word destruction, we have to be careful about how we import our own ideas and images into that because destruction really can mean more like lose the essence of its nature or function. So, and think about, a water bottle that has holes in it and can no longer hold water, or land that is no longer fertile and can no longer produce fruit trees. It's all these other ways in which that word destroyed is used. The land is destroyed when it can no longer bear fruit, no longer do the thing that it was meant to do. And so that word destroyed doesn't mean cease to exist at all. It just means that our essence is removed away from us in some sense. And really the bigger problem I think posed in the Bible is not how God's judgment of sin is unjust, but how can a holy God actually forgive rebellious sinners? So again, embedded in this question is an assumption that all people are good. Maybe there are some bad apples, but mostly we're good and God should, he's like obligated to put us in heaven. If you read the Bible, the problem is flipped around and says, we're really sinful and continue to rebel against God and reject Him. How is it that a holy God can actually forgive people like that? That's the real question. And hell answers the question of evil by providing evidence of full and just punishment for all evil. It's like, we rarely see full just punishment for evil in the world today, right? So many miscarriages of justice, even the best justice system in the world, which I think we have here in America, is still filled with injustice, right? Innocent people go to jail, guilty are let off, people with more money tend to get away with stuff, people have less money tend to get punished more. I mean, it's a mess. all kinds of evil is passed over, even in a really strong justice system. The thing about Hitler, like, Hitler blew his brains out. I mean, where's the punishment for that? Like, we never had a chance to bring him to judgment, to trial for his crimes. But with hell and with God's vision of final judgment and hell and eternal consequences, we have the promise and the assurance that for all this evil, all the murders and rapists and child molesters and everything else, there's going to be punishment. We may not see it. We may not ever know about it. but God is in control of it and it will not be overlooked, it will not be minimized, there's no bribery that can get God to look over it. Justice will be served and that evil will all be punished. I'm encouraged by that because there's just too much wrong in this world that will never be accounted for here and now. Yeah? We all want to see Hitler go to hell. But I think the thing that gets thrown up at more of us is the conversation I had with my father-in-law's girlfriend at one point. And somehow she got And she's Catholic and she got this understanding that we really didn't see them as Christians. And so therefore, she made the connection that we believe they're going to hell. And she was very indignant about this. And she was like, how? Are you telling your kids that their grandpa is going to hell? And really, there is what I think of really upstanding generous, loving, hardworking people. He is the epitome of just a fantastic man, like really wonderful. And she's so indignant about that. And yet he has come to the baptisms, he's been at funerals and weddings, aplenty where the gospel is preached. and does not appear to have been affected where he has made his faith in Christ for his salvation. Same as my grandma, you know, like lived a lovely life, you know, but chose that she was She felt like she should bring something to the table when it came to her paternity. And I think that that's where we get the pushback from people. How could God send that person to hell? And is he going to be next to these rapists and murderers and awful people that are so you know, important to all of us. And then there's these amazing, wonderful, kind people, our neighbors around the block, you know, we just all love them. And yet they are not in person. So I think that that's where people push back at us for saying, these people are going to do it all on their own. I'm not the one saying that, you know. But can we help them in that? Yeah, so there's a strong emotional argument there to push back against it. That's kind of why I want to start. I know it's a lot of Bible passages, but I want to make sure to ground us. The emotional arguments are very compelling and difficult, but we have to be really grounded in the reality of what is going to happen. One thing I haven't talked about very much is there's clearly different degrees of punishment. I mean, God is very clear that the punishment will fit the crime and we will be judged according to our work. So I do think that Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin, whatever, are going to experience a different kind of punishment than Like Kari's grandmother, who was just a Unitarian and stubbornly, vehemently opposed to Jesus, but otherwise a decent woman, you know? She didn't kill anyone. So, you know, and the Bible recognizes that all, on the one sense hand, all sin is sin in that it is a rejection of God, and God is holy. but also there are clearly differences in punishment throughout the Bible for different types of sin. Murder is dealt with differently than lying, for example. So there are differences that would allow us to say, well, there's different degrees of punishment. So I think my, you know, Kari's grandmother will experience something different than Hitler. but they will both be in the same place, which is apart from God. I think it also, we elevate our human experience and diminish or downplay God and who He is, in framing that conversation again. Because all the focus is on, well, but look at this amazing person over here. And so, okay, I totally, but now let's turn around and look at who God is. He's the infinite, perfect creator of the entire universe. We can barely wrap our minds around him in any sense of the word. What limited information we have has been revealed to us directly. There is much that we don't understand and can never understand. He revealed himself, If he is holy, we don't even have an illustration that we can use for understanding holiness or perfection. And that is, when you start scratching beneath the surface, And who's that guy, Comfort, Ray Comfort, you know, he does this in a very sort of street, his street evangelism, you know, is very confrontational in a way, but he does a great job of revealing very quickly the sin and darkness that is present in all of our hearts that we want to minimize and downplay based on outward appearances of what people look like and what they do externally and ignoring the I mean, if we played a movie of every dark, intrusive thought, or really just of everything that went through your brain in the last 24 hours, you would be mortified. I would be mortified. I mean, I couldn't handle that. Because we are deeply sinful people living in a deeply broken world. And so it's astonishing that, and yet, here's the amazing part, is that God died to rescue us. Like, yeah, God's the one who is sending them help. God is also the one who has provided a way for that sin to be forgiven and for nobody, for everyone to escape hell, potentially. And, you know, with Kari's grandfather, he got, understandably, it's another question like, what about people who have never heard about Jesus? He couldn't get around this question. We kept saying, but you, right, it is a good question. And we'll talk about it. We did talk about it a lot. But you know, like we have talked, we have shared the gospel with you a hundred times. Don't let your fear or uncertainty about what's gonna happen to them keep you from, like you're responsible to respond to this gospel that has been preached to you so many times. And then we have the opportunity to take that gospel, it motivates us then to share the gospel with other people, to recognize that we have this, that they are heading to eternal separation from God. And we have the duty, responsibility, gift to bring them this good news that way it's been made for them to avoid that fate. You're right, Marsha. Totally, it downplays our own sinfulness. I mean, we really ignore that. We all think much more highly of ourselves than we should. Sorry, this is true. We do. So we talked about, you know, God's not just love. I think there is also a sense, and like I saw this especially with Kari's grandmother, You know, God is the one who judges and sends, but people also are responsible finally for their actions. So, you know, C.S. Lewis said, there are two kinds of people, those who say to God, thy will be done, that's us, like we're here on Sunday, we're saying thy will be done. And those to whom God says, no, thy will be done. And there is definitely this sense throughout scripture that ultimately those who are in hell, those who have said repeatedly, like, I don't want this. I want my will to be done. And so finally God is like, okay, your will will be done. Not in a, In the sense that God is sort of no longer sovereign over the process, but just as a way to recognize that our own free choices lead this way. So Greg Boyd uses this image of an alcoholic who repeatedly chooses the bottle over his family, over his job, over his kids, over his everything. Because in his mind, this drink is what I want. This is where I'm going to find happiness, meaning, security, peace. And he continually chooses what is. From our perspective, everyone else can see this is leading to death. But that is what he wants, and he's freely choosing that. And in a sense, that's what people who reject God continue to do. They continue to choose, my way, my way, my way, my way. And we look in saying, you're going, this is leading to destruction. Stop. And eventually God will let them experience that. That's hardening of the heart. Oh, and he asked this one final question in the book, he said, well, wouldn't the presence of hell diminish our enjoyment of heaven to know that there's this hell? So, you know, but Revelation 21 says, There shall be no mourning, crying, or pain anymore. He doesn't say there's not going to be any emotions in heaven, but the negative emotions that are connected to our experience of sin personally and in the world will be erased in the presence of God. So we're not going to be in heaven experiencing regret, sadness, fear, sorrow, loss. So, from that point of view, I don't think it will impact heaven at all, insofar as we're even aware of it. I don't think we'd even be aware of it. I'm not going to be in heaven agonizing over the fact that somebody I knew is not there, because that would be sorrow and loss, which we won't experience. And don't you think too, we'll be so, I can't think of another word than engrossed, but we'll be so engrossed in the vision of the Lord face to face. All consuming, everything else will pale in comparison. For sure. So if we believe in God, it is necessary that there's going to be things that we don't fully understand or grasp, and yet we still have to believe and hold on to. One of my professors at Trinity, he wrote an article in his book, and he ends by saying this. No one seeking theological understanding from scripture is a stranger to the experience of arriving at more and more unanswerable questions. The nearer one comes to plumbing the depths of divine love on the one hand and divine justice on the other. The more we get into this, the more questions you're going to have that you're going to be frustrated you can't answer. He says, one response to the pain, fears, and frustration of our questions is to allow the sensibilities we absorb from our age to dictate what scripture can mean. So we saw this with homosexuality. I've got to change my position because I've just I can't figure this out and same with hell like It's just too awkward uncomfortable countercultural difficult I'm Maybe God's gonna save everyone in the end. Maybe everyone just gets a race. I don't know what it is That is one option he said but a second response is to defer to the God who has created the world and promises that he is even now redeeming it and And to the Redeemer, He is sent to establish the righteousness that all the world longs for. That's the other option. One is we turn to ourselves and our own understandings, the other is we turn to God. And to the Redeemer, He is sent into the world to redeem this world with all its evil, pain, and suffering. And then he says, finally, if our best hope is that Redeemer, Jesus Christ, then our best counsel may be to receive his teachings undiluted in the same grave earnest that our sources say he set them forth. Our best solution is, this is hard teaching. These are hard words from Jesus. He doesn't approach this topic glibly or lightly. that we should approach it, we should receive them as the words of Christ, but with that same grave seriousness, with which he proclaims them, and then turn to him eagerly and thank him for that salvation that we have in Christ. It's a difficult topic, for sure. We've encountered it with our Kari's grandparents and Your in-laws and maybe others of you have had similar questions. I think somewhat embedded in that is their indignation that somehow they perceive that we think we deserve heaven, and they deserve hell. Yeah. That's embedded in the question. Yeah. There won't be anybody in hell that doesn't deserve to be there. Yeah. There won't be anybody in heaven that does deserve to be there. Yeah. That's really good. It's not like, well, he wasn't good enough, you know, or he's not a good person. But it's just, it's just so dignified. rawly indignant that, you know, we would think that and therefore pass that on to our kids to think that. And rather than an understanding of it, we compassionately pray for him to bend his knee to Christ. We don't judgmentally say, well, we're better than her. But that's how she thinks of it in her framework of the good people go to heaven and the bad people And then you're calling me a bad person and I'm not a bad person, right? So it's trying to unpack that and say, we have to get at these terms, good and bad and in relation to whom and yeah. And my sister, who's also Roman Catholic, often speaks of people that she knows, especially those who are departing, as such good people. And finally, I couldn't take it anymore, and I said, in the Bible, it says, call no man good except the Lord in heaven. And I think it's a skewed understanding based on the fact that Catholicism is based on your good works are what get you to heaven. But as a matter of fact, it isn't our good works that get us to heaven, it's our belief in Jesus that gets us to heaven. I can see why, if you thought good works got you to heaven, you would be indignant if somebody said, that's not what it's based on. I'm feeding the hungry and I'm helping little old ladies across the street. I give endowments to Notre Dame every year and all that. That doesn't do it. It's really basically, I think too, a sense in our world today that we aren't sinners. Because I know so and so who's a sinner, but I'm not a sinner. That is the bizarre part is we want to minimize and downplay sin, but we have moral indignation and outrage at the evil and suffering in the world. We just don't want to ever think that we're any part of it. That's not me, but like suicide bombers, they're evil. They should be punished. Well, how should they be? How and why should they be punished? I'm a good person, though. I don't do those things. And we do. Driving a car in anger, it's the same, the Lord said, as killing someone. That's not a good thing. Probably have not solved this question, but created I think for me it was good going back through the scriptures and being reminded again of just the reality of hell and the extent to which Jesus talks about hell. Which really emphasizes again that Jesus himself was very clear on the reality of sin and the reality of final judgment. more than just a moral teacher. So if you're going to call Jesus just a good teacher, you've got to remove a whole lot of stuff that he taught about. He's the one who came to give us the solution, and yet we don't want to take that solution because it really requires humility. You know, a sense of your own sinfulness. And we don't want to look at it. And we don't want to take the solution that he gives. They want to have the solution that they want. And that's not how it works. I mean, we always want that. That's our sinful human nature. I want the solution I come up with to whatever this thing is. We should, it's 1020, we should wrap this up. Let me pray. Lord, we are so thankful for the death of your son, Jesus Christ, who secures our forgiveness for our sins. And Lord, we're thankful that you have given us a way to avoid the terrible, awful realities of hell. personally, and I pray Lord that you would motivate us to bring this good news of the gospel, the good news of salvation, its divine rescue to those around us. Lord, help us to share this good news with love and grace and patience, but also with earnestness, given the eternal consequences and realities uh, that lie ahead one day at the final judgment. We pray all this in Jesus name. Amen. Thank you very much. Thank you guys for your time this morning.