Please be seated. Can I sit down or do I need to stand up? You're welcome to sit if you would like. Okay. In terms of the live stream can we still do that? Yes. Okay. Okay well good. I'd like to sit down if you got. Can I just pull this chair up like this maybe? I think I'll just, I think they may see better if I sit up here. OK, no questions. We can go eat now. Go ahead, Jeremy. And especially for those that weren't here, that may not have watched, the title of the conference is The History and Ethos of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church. Can you describe succinctly, but more directly, what the ethos of the OPC is? Yeah, I think that the thrust of the talk was the recognition in terms of the Orthodox Christian Church that in terms of being the continuing Christian Church of the United States of America, in some ways that would be true. That it's confessional faithfulness, faithfulness in the whole counsel of God and the Word of God. But the seat at the table that the mainline church had would not be there for this new church simply due to the fact of how tiny it was, and thus in many ways insignificant. Not in spiritual ways, actually quite significant, but in terms of the world's perception of the church There wasn't much of a voice to hear from this tiny church, especially after Machen himself. The Lord took him home six months after the OPC came into existence. And also, and the other things that followed, for instance, when the fundamentalists left. These were godly people. uh... you know uh... carl mcintyre had a storied career but a lot of people don't realize is that there's a young seminary student at at westchester that time that went with them named francis schaefer Francis Schaeffer went with MacIntyre and with the Bible Christian Church had a significant impact in his ministry to the broader evangelical community, not just in Reformed circles, but to focus on what we believe. which is what Westminster Confession of Faith summarizes the Bible's teachings to be. We believe that this is the best expression. The Reformed faith is the best, fullest expression of the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ, and that's where we're going to stake our claim. and we're going to rely upon the means of Christ, the folks at ministry is going to be a spiritual ministry. That's something, I think, of what formed the ethos of the OPC that distinguishes it in some ways from other churches. Other churches may be stronger in other areas, and we rejoice in that. I think that's what distinguishes our church. Yes. What is one thing that we could do to make the OPC a stronger? What is one of the OPC's, I guess, greatest weaknesses? Yeah, that's a good question to ask. I think sometimes we have the reputation of being weak in ways that we're not. A lot of the perception of the OPC is that we're so doctrinally, that doctrine is so important to us that that's all that matters and we're not engaging in terms of outreach. That's a caricature that's not true. Now I'm not saying that there aren't places in the OPC and congregations in the OPC that that's not descriptive of, it is. But as a whole, it's not. I don't think we need to go back to the committee of nine and come up with, okay, here are nine things that we need to do and focus. One thing I think we can do to strengthen it is to tell the stories. Tell what's happening in the other churches and learn from that. And the OPC is growing in this as well. In terms of diaconal ministry, the diaconal ministry of the OPC is incredibly strengthened over the past maybe 15 years or so. I think some disaster relief is sort of what kicks some of that off with deacons coming together for summits and meeting each other and learning what different churches are doing. And our Colonel Cloy and Dan Cook that are two peas in a pod, I say it's dangerous if you get those two men in the same room at the same time without somebody in between them. But they put together, as a pilot, a pre-presbytery conference on the ruling elder that I think will help sharpen, as this grows, help sharpen our ruling elders in our sessions as they become, have opportunities to engage more with other ruling elders and sessions. I think those are good things. And I think our connectional nature opens the door for that. But those are late advances that I think that are helpful. But I think we need to be very careful. We can be seduced like any other church, either by the world or by worldly measures that we sort of sprinkle a little dust on or water on to sanctify them. We can be seduced by those. And in the history of the OPC, in one of the books that we've recommended, it catalogs every cultural influence that has impacted the broader church has sought to make inroads into the OPC. We're not immune from that at all. And some stumble. when it happens. But in God's grace, the OPC has come down with its feet more firmly planted. But I think it was either the year I came in or the following year, this was a staggering thing. The OPC was the fastest growing denomination. It was tied with Assemblies of God, I think, as being the fastest growing denomination per capita in America that year. People, they didn't realize that that was the case. And people, a lot of times people would characterize, well the PCA is more evangelistically oriented, OPC is more doctrinally oriented. The OPC has traditionally led the PCA in growth by professions faith. And I'm not saying that to say anything bad about the PCA, it's just how I think the OPC sometimes mischaracterized. Very good question, though. Because we have blind spots just like everybody else does. Another great story comes out of the Tidewater area. Could you elaborate a bit on the building opportunity for the Suffolk? Yeah. Yeah. The Suffolk work. We were able to rent a Christian church building. It's a wonderful building. We weren't meeting in the main sanctuary of the building. We maybe could have eventually done that, but it was only available on Sunday evenings. And we wanted very much to go to Sunday morning and Sunday evening and Sunday morning worship services. And we were able to work it to where we could do an afternoon study there and then the evening service, but we were not going to be able to have morning worship. And so we had our eyes open for other locations. And really through a conversation that John Nyman had with a couple of people, I can't even remember exactly when the conversation took place, He learned about this building that this Baptist church has that's somewhat reformed in their theology and that was really struggling. And so he approached them about, you know, could we maybe utilize your building? and they were very open to that. And so we started evening worship there with a view in a couple of months as it came acclimated to be able to arrange it so that they could meet at one time and we would meet at another time on Sunday morning. Well, just last week, or week before last, the pastor of that church called John and said that they're now down, I think, under, maybe even around 10 or 11 members, and the church isn't gonna make it and he's gonna retire, I think, around the end of the year. And he said, we would really like to sell our building to you at a really affordable price. We don't know, $100,000, $150,000, something like that. That's pennies, believe me. And that hasn't been worked out yet, but it looks like that that may be the case. And trying to nurture relationships with those that remain, who knows, perhaps they'll come into the life of the church as well. But it would be the provision of a building in a place that's very, very costly that could be affordable for our brothers and sisters there in Suffolk. One thing to pray about, this is serious about John Nyman. John is a Canadian citizen and John got a visa to come down to do an internship at Reformation and it was long in coming. There were many delays. Our borders are porous for illegal aliens, and I'm not speaking politically here, but for people that seek to come in legally, it can be a nightmare sometime. well finally he got the visa and was able to come here and then homeland security has changed things so that religious leaders with visas were put in the same uh... they put into the same category uh... illegal minors which there are thousands and thousands of them which bumped the religious uh... people down to the bottom. So what was originally an 18-month, two-year period, you know, to get green card and to reside here in the United States was put off maybe as many as five to ten years, which means their visas would run out. They would have to go back home, start the process all over. We're trying to get ahead of it. But what we're finding at every turn, even when we say, well, here's some possible good news that looks like this may be able to happen, there's another curveball, something that we learn, because it's very complicated. And we're right in the midst of that at this moment. I had a conversation with one of the elders when I was driving here yesterday. about it. So pray for John and for his immigration status. I mean, the Lord's able to work through all of that and to make it work. But there was a time when we really believed that John would be here. It looked like it was impossible unless he'd be here a short period of time, that he would need to pursue a call in Canada. And we don't want to lose John. That's up to the Lord, but And we don't think that that's what's going to happen, but, but that's the situation that we're in. And we faced this before with Zeki's family trying to get over here. It took forever from our end of the immigration issue where there's, I mean, real asylum needed, but there's real danger with Zeki's family. And it took what, two or three years before they were able to get here. So it's a mess. Pray for John, in particular, and pray for the congregation there. And it's costly. We have to invest substantial funds in order to get through the immigration process. But you get here, and then they change the rules. What happens? It didn't impact John, it impacted all kinds of ministers and religious organizations, people that came over here under certain expectations and then the rules changed and some have had to go home. Yes? You mentioned that just about every cultural issue has tried to work its way into the OPC. Which ones do you see trying to come in now, and are there any that have made inroads, and what do we need to be on guard against? Yeah, Jeremy and I were talking about this tonight. I think feminism in particular is, I mean, we live in a culture that is full-blown egalitarian. Even when you look at politics that are out there, the conservatives in politics are full-blown egalitarian. The notion of male headship is anathema in the culture that we live in. And when the church tries to live and be faithful to the scriptures, not in an extreme patriarchy way. We've seen some of that and the abuses that come from some of that. We don't want any part of that. But the pendulum should not swing to an unbiblical egalitarianism. And that's gonna be a constant. That's what came into the Southern Presbyterian Church and the Northern Presbyterian Church. That was the lead way in for progressivism in both the Northern Presbyterian Church and the Southern Presbyterian Church, especially the Southern Presbyterian Church as you came into the 60s and 70s, because that's more palpable. It was an interesting thing that, yes, that's happening in the PCA in terms of egalitarianism, but what shot to the front was revoice. It was the sexual ethic issue that shot to the front. That's an unusual thing. Usually it gets feminism in, that undoes a hermeneutic that demonstrates the biblical order of male headship. And then that later then is applied to the sexual issue. But it was a strange thing. And it's because I think they had a particular minister you know, that was in the LGBTQ community and was a leader in that, that forced that. Now, I believe the PCA's come down pretty solidly on its feet after that. And I think some that jumped ship real quickly in that, this is my opinion, may not be anybody else's, I think they shouldn't have jumped ship. And I told some of them that. You don't know what the Lord may do. But the OPC has had issues, the charismatic movement, the penile controversy before the charismatic movement, it sought to make inroads into the OPC. Contemporary worship and kind of throwing off the regulative principle, it found inroads into the OPC. Some of those churches ended up going PCA in the end. And then some that were enticed by that, thinking that this may be a better way to reach the world and to be more relevant to the world, even in the OPC, came out the other side of it and are more firmly committed to the regulative principle of worship now. That's what I have seen so far when these movements have impacted the OPC. The OPC sometimes is slow to address them, painfully slow, and even criticized for the slowness, but there's a thoroughness to it, and when it's settled, It seems to come down with its feet or firmly planted. And I'm very hopeful that this is what we've seen in the OPC with Revoice. The ruling elders came out of the woodwork on the Revoice issue. So I'm hopeful for our brothers and sisters in the PCA. And just by opinion, I think those that jumped ship to Vanguard and then that split into another one now, I think they moved to too quickly. That's my view. I've told some of them that went vanguard that, that are friends of mine. Love them. But we don't always agree on things. And I think we need to hang with it and not wring our hands. Um, and, but I do think, you know, feminism really sought to make inroads. And I think it's impacted some individuals that I won't name that you can, you can, you can see this and the fruit of some of what's going on. Um, but the OPC doesn't stand for only perfect church. We are very imperfect church. But I don't, I think the PCA tackling the revoice issue would even shield us more from that down the road. I'm thankful that they've, since it came to them, that they've gone through that and they've handled it. But I haven't heard not one whisper of any sympathy towards anything like revoice ever in the OPC. Yes. Yeah, I'd be glad to. This is in our sister denomination, the PCA. Revoice was really brought together by people that would represent certain segments of the LBGTQ community. None of them that were in the PCA would advocate that homosexual behavior is permissible. They would advocate, though, that an orientation itself is not sinful. Only activity is sinful. And so then they would even celebrate people that had a homosexual orientation but were celibate. in seeking to mortify the deeds of the flesh in terms of their own expression. And the PCA had to think through this biblically. No, it's not just what you do, it's what you think, it's what your heart is. And I think the PCA has come down in the right place. But they had a minister in a large church in the PCA who called himself a gay Christian. He lived a celibate life. He did not engage in that activity, but he thought his orientation was was not sinful. And then the Revoice was a conference where you had like-minded people came. And some came to the Revoice conference who held the view, no, no, no, homosexuality, it's a gift from God. It's a holy thing. So you had both represented, but those that were in leadership in PCA churches that were there would not have been on that side of the equation. But the conference itself was a travesty. So you said that you felt like the people that left the PCA may have left a little bit too soon because all the ruling elders came out and kind of stomped on that down. I guess conversely, would you argue that the PCA is a bit lost considering the fact that they required the ruling elders to come and beat stuff down, that could kind of indicate that perhaps the teaching elders and the majority have gone a little bit off the gospel track, so to speak. So, how would you reconcile those at that point, that ruling elders have to come in to stomp down? And I appreciate elders are elders, but really the teaching is generally done through teaching elders, rightfully or wrongfully. Yeah, I think that's a good question. I think that it's typically the case the progressives have louder voices and don't have near the majorities that they think that they have. There are teaching elders and there are ruling elders that are on the revoice side, even still. Our work in Athens, Tennessee has some refugees from a PCA church where both of the pastors spoke on the revoiced side at the General Assembly from their local congregation. They said, we can't stay here. But I don't know that that's a majority, don't think that it is. And I think some of it, And I think some of it, too, is that people hadn't thought it all through. I think there are a lot of people that, you know, that thought, well, if someone has these tendencies, because we know Christians can have, you know, sinful tendencies. What do you do with that? Well, you mortify it. You know, it's the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit that's at work in us. And I've heard people who believe themselves to be fully biblical that haven't ever thought that through and says, well, you know, if they don't act on that, then it's not sinful. And it forced the church to look more deeply into what the Scripture says about these things. But yeah, and I don't know, I don't know that I don't know what the percentages were in some of those votes. So it's our sister denomination. I don't know all the details there. And I'm not saying that I don't still have concerns about our sister denomination, but I feel better than I did four or five years ago. So yeah, my phone is ringing in my ear. You guys can't hear it. My hearing aids. Go ahead. I have a question here being texted in by a listener. They say, we desire to plant work in Moorhead City and Kinston, North Carolina from this church. How can we do this? Okay, say that again so I can hear. We desire to plant a church in Moorhead City and Kinston, North Carolina from here. How can we do this? Yeah, you go through your session. I get, you know, a lot of times I'll have people that will come to me and say, you know, we would like to plant a church that are members of another one of our churches or mission works. And I say, when your session comes to me or to the Home Missions Committee and says, let's look into this, I'm ready to jump in and help. I will never go ahead of our sessions. I think that's the way it's to be done. So if there's an interest, there needs to be a conversation with your elders about it and then let them guide that and explore that before coming to the presbytery. I've had situations like that. One guy that was just, he was calling me constantly and I'd say, go to your session. Well, I've been to my session. Well, when your session comes to me, then we'll talk about it. And, you know, that's where the impetus needs to be. And our sessions, you know, yeah, sometimes our sessions may say, well, you know, it's going to be a struggle for us to do it in our thinking in terms of timeliness. And sometimes when the conversation comes, the sessions will say, well, maybe we need to step out in faith. And so you take it to your session. I trust our sessions. Doesn't mean they're always right. I mean, yours is, but that doesn't mean that's true of all other sessions. But I, yeah, that's the way we do it. The PCA functions sometimes differently than that, where M&A, the denominational committee, sometimes will just go and plant in a place. We don't do that. And we really honor the local sessions in the locality. And if the Lord wants to plant a church and then he's gonna convince your session, it's time to move forward. Casey, if I could ask a question on the behalf of the individuals who texted that in. To my knowledge, there are no Nate Park churches in Kingston or Moorhead. What if they don't have a session? What if they're not in a performed church? How would you advise them then? Yeah, again, I like to involve those that are closer, like your session in that regard. Even with the situation in Greenville, I think it's a wonderful thing for Sterling to come and worship here and to build a relationship here, and then for you guys to nurture that relationship that's there. But if it's where that can't happen, if there's a group of people, then contact me. I talk to people that are close to see, and maybe they could be involved in helping to explore and see. So you would encourage them, if they're interested, to contact this church? Yes. And then this session could contact our Home Missions Committee and me. And because I'm always eager where there's an opportunity to go and to talk about church planting and to talk about, you know, opportunities and to assess opportunities and situations. But what I'm not going to do is run out ahead of one of our sessions, especially when there's a close proximity, you know, to it, especially if they're members of a congregation and are wanting to plant. That's not a bad thing, that's a good thing. But the way it's done is through conversation with your own elders and get their help and support in assessing it. And then a lot of times they'll have me come and help further. But I had a call from a guy yesterday that's coming to covenant theology, almost there, It's in a Reformed Baptist church, not a member. He's lived there for a year, you know, where he is. There's another family that's in exactly the same boat, and they're just wrestling with I wonder if we should consider planning an OPC church. There's not anything near there in terms of where they are. It's in the Columbia, South Carolina area. Any OPC church anywhere near there, it would be probably a work of the presbytery to do it. He did the right thing to give me a call to begin to establish a relationship. And I told him, I said, you know, pray about it and if, especially if the Lord gives another family or two that have, that share an interest, you know, we can arrange a meeting to come and talk about it. Yes? You have seen a lot of fledgling congregations over the years. Yeah. What are some of the things that you have seen work best in reaching the unchurched people around them? Yeah, and it's interesting that our mission works. They typically have a mission mindset. In Cookville, there was but no real confidence in how to reach out. In that case, we brought in this young man who had confidence in reaching out and they saw him and said, we can do that too. And it changed the dynamic. One of our congregations was really struggling at one point and a lot of discouragement. I'm talking about Maryville, Tennessee, where James Gansevoort is the pastor. James is a phenomenal preacher. I mean, he is an off-the-charts preacher, a deeply godly man, and a humble man. And I talked with him several years ago, and we did a renewal event. And I went down there and preached on ecclesiology, on the doctrine of the church. We had some sessions where we talked about some things. And it changed the disposition of the church. They had a different outward view. Last time I visited there, I said, I haven't seen this church like this. And I don't know when. There were so many people. And they're planting the dark church. It's not an ABCD, it's not a checklist thing like you see in church growth methodologies, that kind of thing. Not in our circles because we rely upon the means of grace. But I think people, one of the focuses we had there was look at who you are by what God says. The sermon I'm going to preach Sunday night that you've heard me preach was a sermon that I preached in that church. You're glorious because God says so. It was just like a light went on because they were looking at empty seats. thought this is inglorious. Instead of seeing the depth and the richness of the ministry of the word there, the godliness of their pastor and how he shepherded them, how they were growing in grace and in the faith, and this is something that other people need. It hit at the exact right time. But I'll tell you something else James did. He asked me, he said, I don't think, I think I'm part of the problem, but I don't know what it is. I want you to come and sit in on a service and observe and tell me what I'm doing wrong. Most ministers don't do that. Lord's blessing that church. Go ahead. I have a follow-up to the question that was asked before. From a sessional perspective, What direction would you give to a session that is looking at, so taking it from a different perspective, what would you say to this congregation in this session about looking to Kingston and looking to Morehead City and planting churches in those areas? Yeah, it's tougher when you have a location and you don't have people that are coming from there. to how do we plant and probably need more of the regional church's help in doing something like that. But one thing is to begin to pray, because you might start praying for an area and then suddenly two families start driving up from that area to church. What I try to encourage our churches to do, this is a weakness. I was asked a question about what are weaknesses of the OPC. One of the weaknesses in many of our OPC churches is that we are churches that people drive long distances to. And we have viability. We have plenty of people to pay the bills, pay the pastor, keep the lights on, even support the mission of the church and the broader mission of the church. But we're relying on people that are driving 30, 45 minutes an hour to church. These from here and here and here and here. And what I tell people is you're not yet a fully viable church until the ministry and mission of the church can be fully supported by the members that are in the community where the church is. We fool ourselves into thinking that we are. But we're not in a position, if we have four families that are driving an hour, we've got to have those four families because we've got to pay the preacher's salary. How do we best serve those four families so that they can invite their friends and neighbors to church? We plant a church where they are. And this is how we've done it in Tidewater. The families that are in the Yorktown work live in Yorktown. They were driving to Virginia Beach. The families that were in the Suffolk mission work, they were driving to Virginia Beach. How do you serve both those communities and those congregations? You see, if you live an hour from the church, you may be willing to make that drive to get the preaching you're getting, the shepherding that you're getting, and the wonderful fellowship that you're getting from the church, but your neighbor's not going to drive an hour that needs church. Yes. On that line, and with the unchurched that Janine was speaking of, those people used to read the session results in the newspaper. The community could see that. And it seems like the OPC and the PCA, they come in and out from their intimate groups to seeking what they believe God is leading them to. But the community that's not intimate with the PCA or is being ministered to by a flood rescue mission or a food bank, they they may not, how do you reach them digitally or graphically to say there is a God honoring, those that are seeking God are worshiping together? Have you checked that out? There's a fine line that we have to draw between these kind of outreach ministries that are good in and of themselves and where there's opportunity. And for members to involve themselves, especially those where they have a real keen interest, but then you can say to the people that are here, come to church with me. You're not going to believe the preaching that you're going to hear at this church, the discipleship that you're going to have at the church. rather than maybe the church itself establishing that ministry itself. Now, and it depends upon the gifts that you have in a particular church. And they vary widely. And ministers have widely different gifts. And elders have widely different gifts. But not everybody can be Johnny Serafini. And I was gonna talk about him in Sunday school. I was gonna talk about him here. Johnny has been at Landis in Marion, North Carolina for a year. Just over a year. He is already the pastor of Marion, North Carolina. I've never seen anything like Johnny. He sees need, he is simply there. We have to reel him in. We have to say to him, Johnny, you can't go into that trailer park. There's a meth lab in there. They'll kill you in there. You can't go in there by yourself. There's need in there. And I don't know how he preaches. His preaching is fantastic. We heard it at Presbytery because of his involvement in the community. But he sees the community as a parish. And so he's chaplains in two hospitals, and he's involved in a hospice ministry as well. Why? Because here he can minister to the gospel to people that are in crisis situations. He's delivering food to the elderly on Fridays, then sitting down at the place and having a meal with them, with those that are gathered at the senior center on Friday. Why? So they can meet people that have needs and can share the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. And I've never seen anything quite like it. And so mission work that when they came to us as a PCA church that had four members, then, you know, now it's hard to find a parking place in the parking lot of church. And the church had begun to grow before Johnny came. But he has a, it's almost a drive. that we have to be careful. When the disaster hit Marion and the whole thing flooded and there were trees on people's houses, we had a little of that even among church members, but everybody was out of power. He's sending out, we need generators and OPC families responded and gave them generators the next day. He's taking chainsaws out to get through roads in order to take a generator to this member of the church, hooking up the generator. But those are his gifts that are quite frankly very unique and special. You have to see what your gifts are in the church. what your strengths and what your limitations are, but realize that God accentuates those strengths when you step out in faith. But, you know, if you're a member of a ministry, like that, or a part of it, you have an opportunity. You're meeting other people, and you could say, you need to come in here. This is where you can really be fed and be a part of the church. And you can be a part of that outreach. as an individual Christian that's involved in various kinds of ministries. In Yorktown, we have people that are at abortion clinics every week. You know, and they're trying to save babies and trying to give counsel and minister the gospel to women. Every single week, you know, they're there. Well, they're also, when they have opportunity, talking about how they are fed and cared for at Peninsula Reform Presbyterian Church. And guess what? People are starting to come to church. And that's not the church that's doing it, it's the people in the congregation that are doing it. Everybody needs to see themselves and where they live as given by God an opportunity to bear witness to the gospel. And that's what I mean by looking outside yourself. And it's not even programmatic, but the Lord uses it. Great question though. Yes? Since Pastor Ivy started at Virginia Beach, how many churches are there now in that area of Virginia? Yeah, yeah. When we began to pray for that area, Lynchburg was the furthest one. But then you've got the church in Virginia Beach that's now in Ocean View, in Norfolk, just across the line in Norfolk along the beach. You've got the church in Sulfic. all saints, and we may be organizing it fairly quickly. And then you got the church in Yorktown. Those are the two churches that are church plants of the Virginia Beach Church. And then we have a church in the Richmond area, Mechanicsville, Knox Church, which was a small PCA church that came into the OPC. They just felt like they would fit better. And now they have a daughter church in West Richmond in Short Pump, West Creek Church, and Short Pump's the name of the community. It's part of Richmond, it's just part of Richmond. I heard the origin of the name, but I can't remember what it is, but that's what it's called. Glen Allen's right there too. And so those are churches within our presbytery that have have been or are being planted. Now, West Creek and All Saints and Peninsula Reformed are all three still mission works at this point. But yeah, they started planting a church before they were an organized church in Virginia Beach, where Pastor Ivy was. He forsook us. He actually forsook us, forsook us. We just transferred him to the PCA. He didn't want to go. He wanted to stay in the OPC. Metanoia Ministries is a prison ministry of the mission to North America in the PCA. And so he was just received, what, last night or night before last in Calvary Presbytery in the PCA. I tried every way to find a way to keep him and still him do the ministry. Didn't work. If you have more questions, keep them in mind. Hope you have an opportunity after Sunday evening worship. Or, as you can see, you can text those in as Lacy's answering questions. Again, we invite you all to join with us for a time of fellowship around food. And let's pray and ask the Lord for His blessing. Lord, You are good to us. You are kind. We bless You, O Father, for Your benevolence toward Your people. We thank You for the opportunity to be here today and to hear about We thank you, O Lord, that you feed us by your word, that you feed our souls. We pray now that you would nourish us through the daily bread that you have provided. And bless our fellowship together, we ask in Jesus' name. Amen. Amen.